No Ret Pallies

[cordrann]

Go drunk you're home.


Telling people what to or not to play is one of the things that annoys me the most. People play whatever they want.

If they do not get into groups for some reason it is their problem not yours, so stop starting non-sense like this.

Also, Ret can do an acceptable DPS if you put twice the effort on speding gold / consumables etc than some other class, and there's even a promising Ret spec meta going on that doesn't have gear competition with anyone else.
Also Rets are the best Nightfall users and there isnt a SINGLE raid that cannot be clear because you have a Ret Pala on your raid. That is absolutely ridiculous.

If you're afraid that a lot of Paladins are going Retribution, start filtering them by being good or bad players. I Prefer a thousand times a Retribution paladin on my raid which puts a lot of effort and dedication than a slacky shitty Rogue or Mage who doesn't care about enchants / consumables / attendance / etc.

End of the topic.

I'd rather use an arms warrior with 5 piece conquerors and Imp demo.

[SirCowdog]

While they would be viable in 5 man content, not so much in raid content. Mostly because getting crit immune requires going through so many hoops that the other two tanks couldn't compete. A Paladin, unless out gearing the content, COULD NOT tank the raid boss. The only way they would do so is either getting enough spell power to hold threat but then being in danger of just randomly dying due to crits, or getting enough +defense gear to not be crit, but then everyone has to severely lower their DPS so as not to pull threat.

Bear Druids had it even worse to the point of nearly being none-viable in 5man content too. They take more damage than other tanks, miss far more, and in general cant keep up unless everyone purposefully holds themselves back.

And as always: No we dont have "Much more information about how threat and other mechanics work". Vanilla players weren't stupid no matter how much that narrative may be pushed. Maybe in the early dungeons when they were learning and stuff was still new. But past 40 people generally knew what they were doing.

Say what you want, but back in Vanilla we did not have WoWhead. While I can't argue against the simple fact that top end raiders knew exactly what they were doing, this time around EVERYONE will know exactly what to expect and how it works. I don't agree that most players at level 40+ knew what they were doing. That wasn't my experience at all. That doesn't mean they were stupid. I never said they were. I just think the ease of access to exact information, and the overall familiarity with raiding in a general sense will create vastly different results than back in 2004.


As I pointed out, Warriors are still going to be top dog. That's not in dispute. They're still going to be the preferred and optimal path. But I think the community might really surprise us.

[Unholyground]

Say what you want, but back in Vanilla we did not have WoWhead. While I can't argue against the simple fact that top end raiders knew exactly what they were doing, this time around EVERYONE will know exactly what to expect and how it works. I don't agree that most players at level 40+ knew what they were doing. That wasn't my experience at all. That doesn't mean they were stupid. I never said they were. I just think the ease of access to exact information, and the overall familiarity with raiding in a general sense will create vastly different results than back in 2004.


As I pointed out, Warriors are still going to be top dog. That's not in dispute. They're still going to be the preferred and optimal path. But I think the community might really surprise us.

Ya exactly, however there is one exception to some of this and much of the data post 2007 is moot since those numbers are almost all wrong and some abilities on pservers were totally incorrect and that is where the majority of data is coming from. In a year or 2 we will have proper information for all possible builds.

[bloodwulf]

Say what you want, but back in Vanilla we did not have WoWhead. While I can't argue against the simple fact that top end raiders knew exactly what they were doing, this time around EVERYONE will know exactly what to expect and how it works. I don't agree that most players at level 40+ knew what they were doing. That wasn't my experience at all. That doesn't mean they were stupid. I never said they were. I just think the ease of access to exact information, and the overall familiarity with raiding in a general sense will create vastly different results than back in 2004.


As I pointed out, Warriors are still going to be top dog. That's not in dispute. They're still going to be the preferred and optimal path. But I think the community might really surprise us.

We didn't have wowhead, we had Thottbot\Alakazam\Elitist Jerks. We had most of the same tools, just at different sites. People who were willing to look for the information they needed, had access to it.

[Heathy]

we did have wowhead, well sort of it was called allahkazam (Zam = wowhead) heres what it looked like in 2006 (archived)

[Zyky]

They're fine in 5-man. The content will be so damn easy, that most people simply won't care. The ret pally will get into a guild if he wants one, and will have no serious issues getting groups. Now, getting into raids is a different story.

I mean +10s are a joke in retail, yet people still pass on classes that aren't "meta". If you think that mentality isn't going to carry over then you're insane.

[Machismo]

I mean +10s are a joke in retail, yet people still pass on classes that aren't "meta". If you think that mentality isn't going to carry over then you're insane.

I think the issue will be that most of the people rushing to 60 are gong to take it rather seriously. The causal guilds will find room for a few people like that after several months. But, as we see with causal guilds, they often find themselves mired in the same content. When that happens, the people whoa re excelling in those guilds will move to greener pastures.

Will there be raids with those classes? Absolutely. But, will it be far more difficult to find a place in a raid as a ret? Yep.

[RainBoi]

A retardin? Sure, no thanks. But an actual ret paladin that uses utility like freedom/protection or just offheals in tricky situations? Yes please.

[Bublex]

Not really, the dps gain from salvation threat reduction dosnt out way the dps loss of taking a pala, better to just take a prot or ret speced healing paladin for the buff, Like we used to when we wanted that buff.

Ret paladins dps is and wasn't fine at all. It was an embarisment, an un finished class.

So two dps with salvation can both do 30% more damage so together the paladin will basically just by buffing people generate 60% of one dps, meaning if a Ret paladin does 40% dps of a regula dps class it's still good enough.
You are just overthinking it, content back then was so easy it makes no difference what classes You take unless You are doing a speed run

[Coldfrostzero]

I think what you're probably seeing is the same sort of mindless repetition of meta that exists in the live version of retail WoW. The logical fallacy is that " You either play what's optimal, or you fail utterly".

It's not that paladins can't tank, or even bears for that matter. It's simply that in ideal circumstances, warriors are the best single-target raid tanks. That's not really up for debate. It's just a factual statement.

But where the problem comes in is the assumption that all other tanks are useless in all other situations. They're not. As you just pointed out, paladins have reasonably consistent AOE threat. Are you going to use a paladin to tank raid bosses if you have a warrior available? Probably not. Does that mean a paladin CAN'T tank a raid boss? Doubtful.

It's actually one of the things I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out. We have so much more infomation about how threat and other mechanics work. As a general rule, today's WoW players are also MUCH more skilled in relative terms. Even some LFR raids and heroics in retail wow have more complex encounters than many Vanilla raids. I think the combination of that and the greater access to information is going to allow for paladin and druids to get a LOT more done than back in 2004.

Yeah, I am not interested in playing the meta really. I've been there done that. Got one Cutting Edge achievement and plenty of Mythic achievements when it was still the active raid. I want to challenge myself and playing the meta isn't really a challenge. Granted, even tanking on a warrior isn't always easy in vanilla as I stated when you lose threat, it's a scrambled to get it back as a warrior. Little bit easier with a Paladin thus far as I am constantly damaging mobs through consecration and usually if I lose aggro from someone going HAM on a mob, one swing with SotR up brings them back to me. That or judging it with SotR.

There has been plenty of Paladin tanks in Vanilla and on private servers who tanked virtually everything. Even recently on here, there was a new theorycrafting for kind of a spell power, shockadin-esque build. Talked with a guy who played on a private server and tanked and he had some suggestions on how to gear and whatnot. So even today, regardless of the ignorant people, the desire to find the optimal way to gear/play still exists.

Since it's impossible to become crit immune 100% of the time as any tank, I am curious how well 3/5 reckoning and 2/5 1h specialization might work for threat during raids.

[toffmcsoft]

Just FYI in case any newbies are coming to classic or returning vanilla people hoping this time "it will be different". It won't be. Ret pallies will still not be allowed in 5 mans and definitely won't get any raid spots. Just be warned if you intent to spec ret be prepared to play solo. You will also not be appreciated Q'ing into BGs, and definitely won't be getting into any premades.

This is a troll post.
Our guild has 2 Ret Pally raid spots, a spriest spot, and a boomkin.

Yes, certain guilds will min/max but the classic content is easy up until AQ/Naxx that an average ret pally will do just fine.

[Unholyground]

A retardin? Sure, no thanks. But an actual ret paladin that uses utility like freedom/protection or just offheals in tricky situations? Yes please.

Exactly, hell I still do this on retail, even though it sucks because you can only pop a few heals before going OOM. Druids with resto affinity though can heal a decent amount in a pinch, specially balance with resto affinity.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a troll post.
Our guild has 2 Ret Pally raid spots, a spriest spot, and a boomkin.

Yes, certain guilds will min/max but the classic content is easy up until AQ/Naxx that an average ret pally will do just fine.

Yep, and even still, with the correct build and gear/consumables they can still do well in later content too it just requires much more fine tuning. I find having to do more work rewarding with classes that are not at the same level as a pure DPS.

[Mangokid]

The point I'm making went completely over your head.

Now, in 2019, people actually KNOW what specific gear pieces to obtain to make these "off" specs not so "off". In 2004, 2005 and even 2006, people had absolutely not a clue. As of now, there are TONS of spreadsheets for BiS pieces. This was never available back in 04, 05 or 06.

Paladin DPS gear is super rare and the AQ40 set is the only paladin DPS set. No other gear items has STR, AGI, INT, +spell crit, +crit, damage and healing, and mana per 5. There are no paladin specific weapons.

Back in 2005, when I started playing, there were plenty of websites and forums people used to find gear, make lists, discuss gear and talent choices. There isn’t any build that’s going to keep a ret Paladin from running out of mana or making them strong enough to join a guild trying to get through content.

If you get into a guild that will take a ret paladin then good on you, you won the lottery. If you are a ret paladin who isn’t in a raiding guild then good luck getting into a PUG and if you do just hope the group isn’t filled with offspec players.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a troll post.
Our guild has 2 Ret Pally raid spots, a spriest spot, and a boomkin.

Yes, certain guilds will min/max but the classic content is easy up until AQ/Naxx that an average ret pally will do just fine.

What about the second boss in BWL? Content is easy? I’ve been in PUGs that took 6 hours to complete ZG. We went through 40+ players who couldn’t pay attention to basic instructions like interrupting a heal. Does the word “easy” have a meaning anymore? It’s been thrown around so much it’s lost its meaning. No fight in MC is easy, but if everyone knows what they are doing it doesn’t feel difficult. You get a bunch of people who’ve never been in MC and they will wipe on nearly every boss.

[Necromantic]

Streamers have HEAVILY pushed the whole "vanilla is so hardcore" bit. Which has led to some funny moments with them streaming classic and then trying real hard to make it look like they were having a hard time with things as to not get caught in the lie. Asmongold is especially guilty of this.

I believe it and your response reinforces a comment I made in another thread where people like to make videos which people can easily have project a deceiving image.

We didn't have wowhead, we had Thottbot\Alakazam\Elitist Jerks. We had most of the same tools, just at different sites. People who were willing to look for the information they needed, had access to it.

You beat me to it. I used Thottbot a lot but never the other 2 once I checked them out. Alla was full of underperforming cliques who loved to spread misinformation and Elitist Jerks had a lot of theorycrafting but things that look/sound good on paper may not always apply to practical use and they were wrong on some things.

[Mangokid]

Since it's impossible to become crit immune 100% of the time as any tank, I am curious how well 3/5 reckoning and 2/5 1h specialization might work for threat during raids.

3/5 reckoning is only a 60% chance when crit to gain an extra attack. There is very little paladin tanking gear.

[Elkfingers]

I mean +10s are a joke in retail, yet people still pass on classes that aren't "meta". If you think that mentality isn't going to carry over then you're insane.

I think that mentality is almost exclusively tied to the wannabe esports assholes who make decisions based on a difference of a couple of percentage points at the top-end, despite lacking the mechanical skill for those differences in optimal performance to be even remotely relevant to them.

These people will likely stop playing fairly quickly because that kind of intolerant, childish mentality correlates fairly well with also being an impatient douche. I doubt the pace of classic will satisy these dudes.

Real talk: anyone actually good at the game will take anything at all for a +10 because it literally does not matter. If everyone's decent, it's gonna be a +3 irrespective of comp. Classic isn't mechanically challenging, and good players won't give a flying fuck about optimising comps over just having fun with a few mates.

Imagine treating a 15 year old nostalgia trip as though it actually has stakes.

[Hexme]

Ice Crown? I'm talking before Wrath when patch 3.0 first went live. It was like a month before the Xpack came out. Tuning was NUTS. Hot fix nerfs were rolled out like crazy every night for like a week, and more in the weeks to follow leading up to the big launch of Wrath of the Lich King. This was technically Burning Crusade with the Wrath abilities and talents patched in. How ever bad you thought Ret was "during" wrath, I can assure you they were so much more terrifying in the final four weeks of Burning Crusade.

As someone who played a ret paladin from 2005 to basically Legion, there's so much wrong in your posts. DS was nerfed in a hotfix after 3.0.2, which btw DS was a 51 point talent in ret which wasn't in the game till 3.0.2 (Oct 24th 2008), Wotlk was released on Nov 13th 2008.

So again, you're thinking of Seal of Blood (which was horde only, added in TBC 1-9-2007 and was removed from the game on patch 3.2 which was on 3-4-2009) which the judgement of that was 45% of weapon dmg as holy dmg, could crit out the *** and combined that with wings,vengeance and AoW (which increased the dmg of judgement crits at the time and wasn't changed till patch 3.0.3 which was in Nov), you had a pvp juggernaut. SoB wasn't nerfed till patch 3.1 which was in April 2009.

Alliance paladins didn't get Seal of Martyr (which was a weaker version of SoB till 10-14-2008 aka patch 3.0.2).

I was the only Alliance player out of my group of friends in vanilla-mid wotlk (although I also played Horde in vanilla which was a warrior), I would constantly play my friends horde paladin when they got SoB in TBC and it was ridiculous. It got to the point I was gonna drop my alliance paladin who had so much on him (like justicar title, knight captain title and so many other pvp titles/rankings, did AQ 20 and MC as ret in vanilla) and this was before faction change (which wasn't a thing till 2009, almost 2010) so it would be a complete restart if I made a Horde paladin.

Only Horde paladins aka Blood Elves got to experience the "ridiculous lvls" of pvp in late TBC and early Wotlk.

[Mangokid]

Streamers have HEAVILY pushed the whole "vanilla is so hardcore" bit. Which has led to some funny moments with them streaming classic and then trying real hard to make it look like they were having a hard time with things as to not get caught in the lie.

What’s especially difficult at level 40? The difficult stuff is at level 60. Like the 45 minute baron run.

[Kithelle]

What’s especially difficult at level 40? The difficult stuff is at level 60. Like the 45 minute baron run.

There isn't really much at all that is difficult in classic, but being "difficult" and "challenging" sounds so much better than "snails pace" and "grindfest".

[Unholyground]

3/5 reckoning is only a 60% chance when crit to gain an extra attack. There is very little paladin tanking gear.

There are tanking weapons that apply a stacking ghetto sunder and they cause a lot of extra threat, people don't remember that though.