No Ret Pallies

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

In terms of DPS, what is the ratio for Ret to other specs, that makes it so unviable?

What do you mean? What’s the dps difference between Ret and Rogues/Warriors?
Well, a lot. Ret if you absolute min max and get all the consumables possible and ignore buffing people then you might do 2/3 of the ST dps a Rogue or Warrior does. Those consumables will cost you many hundreds of gold each raid and take a few hours just to pick up. You also scale worse with gear than Rogues and Warriors so you’re behind them in gearing prio, at least you should be, with the exeption of 2h weapons.
Ret also has zero aoe/cleave which Warriors and Rogues both have.

For PvP Ret is quite good, you’re easily kited by mages and hunters but other than that you should have a fair fight with most other classes.

The main argument against ret is that holy is so strong. Why play a barely functional spec when you can play the best pvp healer and arguably best pve healer? Nobody wants to group with ret, but everyone wants to group with a paladin. Hell people will pay to get you in groups with them as a holy paladin!

[Nyel]

I mean, even if you try to make a Ret Paladin, where does your damage come from? Judgement has an 8s CD and that's basically your only offensive skill. Maybe Consecration with another 8s CD or if you go Shockadin Holy Shock with a 30s CD. So you'll always have an a huge downtime of just auto attacking because you lack a filler skill. So, where should your damage come from? At least Enhancers still have totems for damage and get Stormstrike, Ret has nothing.

[Ulthane]

We didn't have the insane centralized data recording and analyzing we have now. I can't wait to see all the classic log data.

Oh for sure, because at least this time around Seal damage is going to be noted x'D

"Ret's have threat issues and have bad damage"

Wait, how can they have a threat problem but have bad damage? What is generating the threat?

"Uhhhh their threat!"

.....k

[Majestic12]

I didn't raid that seriously in vanilla or BC because I was like 17-19 and going to school I started getting serious in WotLK with Heroic 10 man raids. I was in the second best Horde guild on my server.

I never said BC Ret and Vanilla ret are the same...I said exactly that they are different. I said they aren't as much of a burden as you claim. People who downed Naxx in Vanilla in 2006 had ret paladins in the raid. They still bring another precious paladin buff and another aura for their group.

I don't care if you consider it a burden. I won't be raiding with you. A guild said they were cool with me playing Prot paladin, and even in the beta nobody had a single qualm about a prot paladin tank. Nor a ret paladin in group. The worst I saw was people saying they didn't want more than a single melee in group even though shit dies quickly regardless. You're thinking is outdated. It's an old game and who cares. Just don't PUG if you don't want to deal with "subpar" specs. Otherwise, grow up and get over it.

"It's an old game and who cares".

You're in for a surprise on that one.

- - - Updated - - -

For PvP Ret is quite good...

No.

/10char

[Reyuna]

Or you know, just play what you enjoy and avoid assholes.

Don't ban me for that comment you delicate little snowflakes!

[ryklin]

It's already begun. People saying that 1.12, which is what classic will be based on, is not real vanilla. That's why I was against classic from the beginning. Because everyone has their own opinion of what real vanilla is, and nearly all of them are going to end up disappointed that their vision was not the one made reality.

I just meant that vanilla, and every xpac really have a lot more to them than 1 patch.

Honestly, I actually think skipping world of roguecraft is a good idea for making people want to play the game, but there's lots of stuff, like the retarded pve fuckfest that was original AV that people think of when thinking of vanilla that just isn't there in 1.12. Because for a lot of vanilla, ret pallies were doing a lot worse than 1/4 of a competent rogue's damage. Being forced into resto for innervate wasnt great either.

Or other silly memories like healer prot paladins that are there to just give the group kings.

[Velshin]

95% of groups doing M+ 10 don't NEED optimized classes/dps to complete the dungeon, but guess what, you still get denied if you don't have 2k radier io or an item level 30 pts higher than the gear that drops from the run, because no matter what even if it just comes down to a faster clear time, that is still going to be the preferred route for the large majority of people making groups.

2k? you are exaggerating really. I play Ret and my gears are far from bis currently and I am not even 1300io and I have no problem getting into m+10 keys really.

Yes what you describe is the degradation of the WoW community and I agree to some extend but guess what? not everyone is like that. I have been playing since Classic and trust me there are still a lot of good players there (I don't mean skill wise only but also attitude and willing to accept not the best fotm classes and willing to give others chances really).

[Necromantic]

It's already begun. People saying that 1.12, which is what classic will be based on, is not real vanilla. That's why I was against classic from the beginning. Because everyone has their own opinion of what real vanilla is, and nearly all of them are going to end up disappointed that their vision was not the one made reality.

I’ve accepted that the experience will not be 1:1 as it was in 2004/5. I know we have newer age entitled gamers, people who can’t act unless some random neckbeard from Twitch says it’s ok, etc.

When I play a retro game on one of my Analogue systems, it feels as authentic as it’s going to get today but not exactly as they did back in 1985-1995.

I’m also not searching for anything to set me up for disappointment. I’m just looking forward to enjoying what it will be for when it is.

[cparle87]

I’ve accepted that the experience will not be 1:1 as it was in 2004/5.

Considering they're basing the game on 1.12 which came out in '06, you're correct.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

No.

/10char

Yes

/tennnnnnnn

[Wewlad]

Spelladin

/thread

[wargone]

In terms of DPS, what is the ratio for Ret to other specs, that makes it so unviable?

The Ratio is pretty massive for a raid setting. They have very low DPS, remember they dont really have any real Attak spells. They have 3 things. Seals, Exorsism(which have a 15 sec CD) and You have Jugment. 1 Is a medium Long CD, that dont do a lot of damage. 1 is auto hit. and 1 is alright but still have a CD and dont do that much.
It just not good. They can work for Dungeons for Who cares. But of all classes, even more then Druids Moonkin or Feral cat, they suffer from the Hybrid tax.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Sorry, but i had too post this trashmeme.

Hunter Dps is pretty much down there with Rets. Hunters are brought ONLY for Tranq shot, they are deadweight when it comes to actually doing dmg.

- - - Updated - - -

Gotta love all the people who learned about vanilla from streamers talking about how all these specs were viable.

They're not. By design many specs were made for specific content and not viable for group. Ret paladin was strictly made for leveling and is the least viable dps spec for any group content. Anything with a heal spec was made to heal in groups with their other specs being either outright useless (disc priest) or for PvP or leveling (shadow priest).

"Getting better" wouldn't fix this since even the gear backs this. The game was designed for certain specs not working in certain content.

I hate to break it to many of you, but vanilla players weren't stupid. They theory crafted the fuck out of it. They very much knew what they were doing.

From the perspective of anybody looking back, they were absolutely horrible. There was theorycrafting in Classic, yes, but most of the optimization and the vast majority of the theorycrafting people are relying on now, have been done on privateservers later.

And anybody who's trying to claim that player skill hasn't vastly improved, is lying to themself. Nihilums WF Kel'Thuzad kill video have people keyboardturning, spending like 5 seconds to switch target, and generally playing like they have no clue what's going on.

[nyc81991]

This is definitely a troll post. Plenty of groups will take a Ret Paladin if they are a good player.

[Heathy]

I played disc through classic, I always felt that having 10% more mana was the better option, most raids i did had maybe 8-10 healers. I always found the cds in disc to be overall better, innerfocus allowed you to cheese the FSR a bit by not using mana. all you really needed from holy was inspiration for the armor buff on the tank.
power infusion albeit i wasn't the most prolific cd user back then, I had a more conservative mindset rather than a blow it on cd mindset. in holy you have the spirit of redemption which really was never that helpful and the lightwell which was also, kinda meh. if ppl bothered to actually click it. it might have been not bad.

disc was perfectly fine as far as i'm concerned, most ppl down ranked anyway so I didn't really seem much point in choosing bigger heals over lesser max mana. stacking int and max mana was pretty much my min/max at the end i was just using as much int as possible to get 9k+ mana pool. be the last person to call for an innervate. i often see ppl shit on disc but as far as i'm concerned i preferred endurance over raw throughput. just didn't really need massive heals back then when you had that many ppl healing. if everyone specs for throughput you'd end up sniping heals from each other. and everyone is wanding at the same time. or you have several ppl calling for innervate at the same time.

one person has to go disc anyway if you want the spirit buff. the 31/20 build was fine

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Such a terrible argument. For your argument to work, the ret is a raiding god, and all alternatives are trash, which just isn't a real world scenario. The reality is you should be comparing a well played rogue/mage/lock/warrior with a well played pally - and in that scenario, the pally is an absolutely terrible choice.

Only the very top of the top Mythic raiidng guilds have access to a full roster of 20-24 really good players where there aren't somebody who's obviously better or worse than eachother. We're talking top 50 guilds in the world here, if not higher.

Do you actually think that you're EVER going to find 40 equally good players in Classic? Yeah, being good in Classic is obviously much easier than being good in any post WotLK raiding, but there's still going to be a huge variance in skill levels within each guild.

Yeah, a top performing Mage or Fury Warr is the most optimal Dps, but you're delusional if you think a shitty Mage is going to be worth more to your guild than a god tier Shadow Priest or Boomkin. You should not be comparing the strength of each class in a vacuum without regard for player skill, because NOBODY in the game has that kind of choice when it comes to recruitment. Good players don't just appear out of thin air when you need them, so when they do appear (and happen to be playing a less than ideal spec), you would be batshit retarded to decline them because of their class, just so you can get a shitty Mage instead.

[Necromantic]

Considering they're basing the game on 1.12 which came out in '06, you're correct.

I think you know what I meant.

[Revamp Man]

you know what just to piss you off I'm going to level ret paladin and I'm going to do some raids because if you look at a ret paladin and you think that all they bring is DPS then not only are you extremely pathetic but you have never played world of Warcraft because retribution paladins in vanilla still had blessings they still had seals and that is what you bring a paladin for sure holy paladins are good for pain feels especially when they get high enough crit would go fuc yourself if you think that just because the rent they don't bring anything to the group you're probably one of those people that played on a private server for so f****** long and you think vanilla for 20 years so I'm super ultra Master at it

[Malix Farwin]

I'll take that as you admitting you're wrong and cant come up with an argument. Would've been funny to see you try to draw comparisons between Mythic+ and vanilla dungeons though.

I mean you can take that as that, you would be wrong but take it as that(clearly you are hearing what you want to hear anyways).

[blooderduki]

1- Don't play Ret Paladin
2- Delete your Ret Paladin
3- Quit WoW Classic if you have Ret Paladin
4- Don't Raid if you are Ret Paladin
5- Let the game die if you are Ret paladin.