how long does an animal have to be domesticated before it's not an exotic animal

[the game]

So I often see people saying things like "oh that animal should be out in the wild," when they see an animal they don't agree with as a pet. They're ok with dogs and cats being domesticated though. People seem to forget that at one point in time Dogs and cats were not domesticated.

So how long does an animal have to be domesticated before it's not considered an exotic pet or people stop saying it belongs in the wild.

[Shadowferal]

15,000 years..
Give or take a few decades.

[Logwyn]

15,000 years..
Give or take a few decades.

The Domestic Hedgehog (1980s) and Domesticated Red Fox (1950s) say otherwise.

[Ayla]

I'm going to say it more or less depends on utilization and generations rather than time itself.

Ie - Rats, domesticated but only in the last 70 years or so. May generations have passed - more than dogs/cats

[Thekri]

Incredibly dependent on species temperament and breeding rates.

Elephants have been work and war animals for at least 5,000 years, but they have never been domesticated, with the majority always taken from the wild. The two old world camel species have been domesticated, and in fact, modern camels are all descended from the domesticated animals, as the wild species went extinct a very long time ago. Despite this, Camels are not particularly "Tame", and actually act more aggressively then elephants do.

In fact pretty much animal species you can name is a pretty unique case, because there is absolutely no rule of thumb that covers every species. Unless you want to go with something as vague as "Until it Domesticated", which is the only real answer, but it is a self-referencing answer, because that is what the word domesticated means.

[Celista]

We've been crossing coyotes and wolves with dogs and more commonly Asian/African wild cats with domestic housecats (at least recently) so it's all truly questionable. Not all cats or dogs have domesticated bloodlines thousands of years old.

[Endus]

"Tamed" and "domesticated" are two different things.

Domestication involves actual changes to the animal, through breeding for certain characteristics. For some animals, it's a short gap (horses, for instance, didn't really change much at all), but for others, it's more involved (cows, dogs, sheep, etc.)

Also, on this scale, domestic cats aren't "domesticated". That's why they go feral so readily; they're essentially wild animals. They just have a temperament that's incredibly well suited to living among humans cooperatively. There's a lot of reasons to think that cats moved into human spaces on their own, and we just accepted them because they were cute and kept the rodent population down, rather than there being any concerted domestication necessary.

Domestication also is not common, nor are most animals suited to it. The reason horses were domesticated but zebras weren't, for instance, isn't because African peoples never tried; it's because zebras aren't horses. They're a hell of a lot meaner and don't get "broken" the way a horse does; they'll just continue to try and murder you.

You can tame wild animals, but they're still a wild animal, and might react in ways that are dangerous. That's not a big deal if it's a squirrel, it's a bit of a problem when it's a bear.

[Thekri]

Also, on this scale, domestic cats aren't "domesticated". That's why they go feral so readily; they're essentially wild animals. They just have a temperament that's incredibly well suited to living among humans cooperatively. There's a lot of reasons to think that cats moved into human spaces on their own, and we just accepted them because they were cute and kept the rodent population down, rather than there being any concerted domestication necessary.

I have heard this argument before, and I am not sure I agree with it. I don't disagree with any of the facts, just the conclusion. While cats probably did join forces with us voluntarily (Dogs likely did too), I don't think that disqualifies them from being domesticated now, since humans have exerted influence on cat breeding for a very long time now. My preferred conclusion is that cats are domesticated, just that their role in human society (Primarily rodent control) was so close to their wild role that the animal is still perfectly capable of functioning either wild or tame.

Domestication also is not common, nor are most animals suited to it. The reason horses were domesticated but zebras weren't, for instance, isn't because African peoples never tried; it's because zebras aren't horses. They're a hell of a lot meaner and don't get "broken" the way a horse does; they'll just continue to try and murder you.

This I do disagree with. There is very little difference between a Zebra and a Mongolian Wild Ass (One of the several ancestors of modern horses), as both are quite vicious. For that matter even domestic donkeys and horses can be extremely vicious if they are not tamed early in their life. I think the main reason Zebras were never domesticated is exactly because Africans never attempted it. Because they domesticated Dromedaries instead, which are a far more efficient work animal for the climate. To this day horses are extremely rare in Africa, while there are literally millions of Dromedaries. Zebras that are raised in zoos and such are as dependable as any other wild animal, and they have in fact been used to pull carriages and such (Although not often, because they are of course not domesticated). I see no reason why a few dozen generations of tamed Zebras couldn't result in a domesticated variant. There is just literally no reason to do so, because Horses and Camels both exist.

You can tame wild animals, but they're still a wild animal, and might react in ways that are dangerous. That's not a big deal if it's a squirrel, it's a bit of a problem when it's a bear.

Specifically because taming is a thing that is done to an individual animal, domestication is something that is done to a population of creatures. You still have to tame individuals even if they are domesticated. If you don't attempt to handle or interact with a puppy or a kitten, it will grow up "wild", likewise if you hand rear a lion or a bear you will get a reasonable docile creature. I am pretty certain it is technically possible to domestic lions or bears, there are no real barriers to doing so other then resources and near complete lack of utility. Lions are actually very well suited to potential domestication, as they have a very robust social order and collaborative hunting strategies. However the resource requirements for sustaining a breeding population of tame lions for several dozen generations would be enormous, and there really isn't much point in having domesticated lions.

[Techno-Druid]

Domestication = artificial selection or artificially-controlled breeding of another lifeform.

By the basic definition of domestication, pretty much any animal with a shorter lifespan and low requirements to breed can be domesticated. How long it takes an animal to be domesticated depends on its gestation period, size and lifespan. It took less than 50 generations for fur foxes in Russia to be domesticated and they even have a lot of the key characteristics of "domestication syndrome".

[the game]

Domestication = artificial selection or artificially-controlled breeding of another lifeform.

By the basic definition of domestication, pretty much any animal with a shorter lifespan and low requirements to breed can be domesticated. How long it takes an animal to be domesticated depends on its gestation period, size and lifespan. It took less than 50 generations for fur foxes in Russia to be domesticated and they even have a lot of the key characteristics of "domestication syndrome".

I"m not really talking about biology. I'm talking about the stigma people have for some animals being kept as pets. For example People say all the time how sugar gliders don't belong as pets and should be back in the wild. while at the same time those people will say that dogs and cats make great pets.

[Shadowferal]

Does anyone really think a wolf a good...tame pet?
Had an acquaintance that had a half-wolf/shepherd. Not very tame either.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Hamsters are by no means considered exotic, and they were only domesticated from the 1930's forward. In fact, domestication saved it from extinction.
If people believe a pet isn't domesticated when it is, it's just their own ignorance. Nothing to care about.

Now, keeping "exotic pets" that are not domesticated, captured in the wild and sold illegally, that's another matter. But I've seen people try to claim that ferrets are exotic and should be let loose in the wild.

As long as they're legally considered domesticated pets that you can legally keep in your country through responsible means, to hell with the ignorant people thinking their opinion matters.

God I want Sugar Gliders...

[Celista]

Does anyone really think a wolf a good...tame pet?
Had an acquaintance that had a half-wolf/shepherd. Not very tame either.

Depends on what genes they get. True wolves are skittish. Some are extremely friendly, though. Used to go to a wolf farm in Alaska as a child, they'd jump on you and give you kisses.

Speculation but I'm sure that most of the animals who got face time with children/the public were mid to low content hybrids.

[Techno-Druid]

I"m not really talking about biology. I'm talking about the stigma people have for some animals being kept as pets. For example People say all the time how sugar gliders don't belong as pets and should be back in the wild. while at the same time those people will say that dogs and cats make great pets.

@Celista made a thread on the ethics of keeping dogs and cats as pets a little while back, so there's even controversy about that.

[Queen of Hamsters]

@Celista made a thread on the ethics of keeping dogs and cats as pets a little while back, so there's even controversy with that.

Well, from certain fringe groups, sure.
Groups comparing dogs and cats with human slaves, for example.

[Techno-Druid]

Well, from certain fringe groups, sure.
Groups comparing dogs and cats with human slaves, for example.

I don't think it's that, I think it has more to due with the animal's mental health. Historically cats were largely allowed to roam their native environments of Europe and the Mediterranean while dogs lived in packs around human encampments, living off of eating human waste, but still having autonomy to move around and explore.

Nowadays dogs and cats are sitting in houses or cramped apartments with little natural stimulus, even if it is a neccesary evil at this point in time.

[Thekri]

God I want Sugar Gliders...

I have mixed feelings on Sugar gliders. On one hand they breed readily in captivity, and there really isn't an illegal trade in wild caught animals since they are so cheap, so that is good. On the other hand they are pretty nervous and high maintenance animals, and I think the vast majority of pet sugar gliders aren't treated very well, because people don't give them enough space. Sugar Gliders are naturally very shy animals, and they don't like being around large scary things like humans.

I think it is certainly possible to take good care of sugar gliders in captivity, but it is hard, and I honestly don't think it is a great idea in the first place. I think the number one reason to keep exotics like that is to protect the species from extinction, and sugar gliders aren't really in danger of that. Now I am not going to judge someone for having a Sugar Glider if they make a real effort to keep them happy, I would just caution it is a major commitment.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I have mixed feelings on Sugar gliders. On one hand they breed readily in captivity, and there really isn't an illegal trade in wild caught animals since they are so cheap, so that is good. On the other hand they are pretty nervous and high maintenance animals, and I think the vast majority of pet sugar gliders aren't treated very well, because people don't give them enough space. Sugar Gliders are naturally very shy animals, and they don't like being around large scary things like humans.

I think it is certainly possible to take good care of sugar gliders in captivity, but it is hard, and I honestly don't think it is a great idea in the first place. I think the number one reason to keep exotics like that is to protect the species from extinction, and sugar gliders aren't really in danger of that. Now I am not going to judge someone for having a Sugar Glider if they make a real effort to keep them happy, I would just caution it is a major commitment.

I'm one of those people working at an ethical pet store who also converts my animal units from Ikea furniture rather than buying retail cages (because even the big, expensive ones are just not big enough).
It being a major commitment is the entire point of keeping and getting to share life with a pet in my book. Be it a Syrian Hamster, Sugar Glider, Dog or Alpaca.

Yes, I would also like to have Alpacas.

[Ghostpanther]

I'm one of those people working at an ethical pet store who also converts my animal units from Ikea furniture rather than buying retail cages (because even the big, expensive ones are just not big enough).
It being a major commitment is the entire point of keeping and getting to share life with a pet in my book. Be it a Syrian Hamster, Sugar Glider, Dog or Alpaca.

Yes, I would also like to have Alpacas.

Alpaca can be kept and raised safely. We have a friend who raises them for the wool.

My main objection to any undomesticated animal as pets, is do not attempt it with any of the big cats, apes, large reptiles, etc.. The potential of harm is just too great. The same applies I think for some dog breeds however. I have caught wild animals and my first reaction is to ether notify a game warden or nurse them back to health and release them. I have did that with Owls and Hawks before.

[the game]

God I want Sugar Gliders...

Since you like sugar gliders