Expansion/Iteration with the worst Lore

[Combatbutler]

Not really, not conclusively in any case. Thus far we've seen only one such being of the Light with those views, Xe'ra, and that's hardly conclusive that the Light itself holds such views or desires such ends (if it can be said to desire any). The other entities who espouse such views are, well, not really exceedingly trustworthy either - unless you think taking the Void (an often corrupting and insanity-provoking wavelength of essence) at its word is wise.

Only a fool trusts sentient cosmic powers, no matter what kind. I have distrusted the light for a very long time and came to the conclusion it was rotten the moment Velen and his army of the light stuff popped up back in BC. More and more evidence popped up over the years, showing the true nature of the light, I don't believe the void but the combination of both the lights clearly tyrannical actions, coupled with we learned recently and the lightforged constantly going on about the one true path, the maghar scenario and the general shady nature of the naaru.

I see literally no reason to see the light as a source worthy of any kind of devotion, only as a resource.

Xe'ra believed Illidan *had* to accept the Light if her prophecy was to come to pass - but there's no evidence she forced the Light on anyone else in the Army of the Light, it seems they actually underwent the process willingly and view it as a mark of favor and honor. Extrapolating Lothraxion's plight from Illidan's is wrongheaded to me, given that they're not the same individual and Xe'ra was quite obviously focused (perhaps even obsessed) with Illidan.

I don't believe, even for a second, that Lothraxion changed his mind willingly.

[Aucald]

Eh, the Light by default enforces doctrinaire thinking. It gains power from total conviction in a single cause. Deviation from this and nuance weaken you. Hence how even back in TBC you had adherents of A'dal going "those who do not accept the Light are mere servants of evil and must be destroyed". This is not to say it's anywhere morally equivalent to the void, but it doesn't enforce goodness so much as collectivism and singlemindedness, be they positive or negative.

Which I find to be an extrapolation based on evidence from a rather untrustworthy source. What exactly in the "single cause" of the Light, for instance? It has served its adherents through a variety of causes and in my different contexts - so what is this singular doctrine? It can and has been wielded by multiple beings even in conflict with one another. I would say the Light does indeed draw power from unity of purpose, but I don't think that unity is as axiomatic as has been claimed, and it may well be subjective to its user in a sense. Neither the Void nor the Light may be entirely what they appear, even now.

[Aucald]

Only a fool trusts sentient cosmic powers, no matter what kind. I have distrusted the light for a very long time and came to the conclusion it was rotten the moment Velen and his army of the light stuff popped up back in BC. More and more evidence popped up over the years, showing the true nature of the light, I don't believe the void but the combination of both the lights clearly tyrannical actions, coupled with we learned recently and the lightforged constantly going on about the one true path, the maghar scenario and the general shady nature of the naaru.

I see literally no reason to see the light as a source worthy of any kind of devotion, only as a resource.

Trust is always provisional. I would agree a person is a fool to trust something because of what it is, or what it appears to be, but if it proves itself trustworthy then it is okay to trust it as long as it remains so. I think it is far too easy for people to confuse these entities with the forces they represent, when it's very possible for them not do so. The Naaru aren't the Light, and the Void Lords may not even be the Void - there is a difference between the power itself and the beings that appear to incarnate it. The Titans are not Order itself, the Demons are not Chaos. They're not inerrant, and they're not omniscient - as we've seen for ourselves.

One shouldn't invest their devotion in resources in any case - one should invest their devotion in ideals.

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I don't believe, even for a second, that Lothraxion changed his mind willingly.

That's fine, and it's possible it wasn't. I'm saying we don't know that and so it remains open to possibility either way.

[Super Dickmann]

Which I find to be an extrapolation based on evidence from a rather untrustworthy source. What exactly in the "single cause" of the Light, for instance? It has served its adherents through a variety of causes and in my different contexts - so what is this singular doctrine? It can and has been wielded by multiple beings even in conflict with one another. I would say the Light does indeed draw power from unity of purpose, but I don't think that unity is as axiomatic as has been claimed, and it may well be subjective to its user in a sense. Neither the Void nor the Light may be entirely what they appear, even now.

I wasn't clear I think. I don't mean that there's a specific singular cause, but that it naturally synergizes with zeal and commitment to any singular cause, to the exclusion of others. Regardless of their motives, someone who believes very, very strongly that they should be able to use the Light and that it will do what they want will be able to do so. It's the way the belief is expressed, how much it allows alternate viewpoints and how deadset one is on it that decides it ,not so much what the belief itself is. I agree that this doesn't preclude the void - see Benedictus being so certain in the promised end of the world that he could still use it. That's why I like how the Void and the Light's views of each other aren't the same - the Light viewing the void as evil but the void just seeing it as deluded.

[Combatbutler]

Trust is always provisional. I would agree a person is a fool to trust something because of what it is, or what it appears to be, but if it proves itself trustworthy then it is okay to trust it as long as it remains so.

The light has never proven trustworthy, it is the epitome of fickle, the slightest doubt and it will abandon you in an instant.

I think it is far too easy for people to confuse these entities with the forces they represent, when it's very possible for them not do so. The Naaru aren't the Light, and the Void Lords may not even be the Void - there is a difference between the power itself and the beings that appear to incarnate it. The Titans are not Order itself, the Demons are not Chaos. They're not inerrant, and they're not omniscient - as we've seen for ourselves.

Doesn't really matter they are creatures of that realm, making it dangerous by default and those who ally with these beings are a not to be trusted either, unfortunately the light has sunk its grubby claws into pretty much anything on Azeroth.

One shouldn't invest their devotion in resources in any case - one should invest their devotion in ideals.

The light represents nothing worthy of devotion, it is nothing but an intangible mess about vague nonsense like unity peace and harmony, all of these are far too broad and as such unfit.

[Aucald]

I wasn't clear I think. I don't mean that there's a specific singular cause, but that it naturally synergizes with zeal and commitment to a single end. Regardless of their motives, someone who believes very, very strongly that they should be able to use the Light and that it will do what they want will be able to do so. It's the way the belief is expressed, how much it allows alternate viewpoints and how deadset one is on it that decides it ,not so much what the belief itself is. I agree that this doesn't preclude the void - see Benedictus being so certain in the promised end of the world that he could still use it.

The Light is emblematic of conviction and conviction, like most things, can cut both ways as you can be convinced of things good or evil and selfless or selfish. The Void is emblematic of potential, all things being equally possible or true, nothing forbidden or guaranteed. This doesn't make the Light "good" anymore that it makes the Void "evil", or vice-versa. The moral judgment is always a product of the wielder of the power, no matter what scale of being they are.

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The light has never proven trustworthy, it is the epitome of fickle, the slightest doubt and it will abandon you in an instant.

All of the powers in the WoW universe are fickle, or come with drawbacks in their very usage.

Doesn't really matter they are creatures of that realm, making it dangerous by default and those who ally with these beings are a not to be trusted either, unfortunately the light has sunk its grubby claws into pretty much anything on Azeroth.

Don't forget that the Light has also acted to save Azeroth in many cases - such as freeing Tirion Fordring during the fight with the Lich King and allowing him to be finally defeated. I don't think it's as clear-cut as all that.

The light represents nothing worthy of devotion, it is nothing but an intangible mess about vague nonsense like unity peace and harmony, all of these are far too broad and as such unfit.

That's a subjective determination, and as such it is what it is. In a mythology where such powers exist and have agendas seemingly of their own, you follow the zeroth law of power (without power you can accomplish nothing) to its essential conclusion.

[Combatbutler]

All of the powers in the WoW universe are fickle, or come with drawbacks in their very usage.

That might be so but even by Azeroth standards the light is incredible fickle and as such unreliable.

Don't forget that the Light has also acted to save Azeroth in many cases - such as freeing Tirion Fordring during the fight with the Lich King and allowing him to be finally defeated. I don't think it's as clear-cut as all that.

So did any other cosmic power, despite several of them being utterly repulsive

That's a subjective determination, and as such it is what it is. In a mythology where such powers exist and have agendas seemingly of their own, you follow the zeroth law of power (without power you can accomplish nothing) to its essential conclusion.

Unfortunately the only true light wielders strayed from their path, may the blood knights rest in peace and the sad joke that replaced them be mocked for their foolishness.

[Super Dickmann]

The Light is emblematic of conviction and conviction, like most things, can cut both ways as you can be convinced of things good or evil and selfless or selfish. The Void is emblematic of potential, all things being equally possible or true, nothing forbidden or guaranteed. This doesn't make the Light "good" anymore that it makes the Void "evil", or vice-versa. The moral judgment is always a product of the wielder of the power, no matter what scale of being they are.

I somewhat agree, but I'd say that given the emotions the void stimulates and feeds off of, as well as what the ultimate manifestations of it bring about, it's definitely more evil in most situations. Hence how someone is good despite the void, whereas the Light can be good by default. This also shows in the different means of its control. Someone can use the Light because of their belief in a cause outside themselves, i.e their belief that they can use it or do its work regardless of what it is they're doing. It's belief in something other than oneself that allows it. By contrast, the Void is about the person's individuality overcoming the void, fitting for a power based on such individual expression.

[Shadowferal]

The lights very definition is tyranny with happy feelings on top, so what does this tell us about those reforged by it? In the end, the light is just as dangerous as the void, but far more insidious and needs to be contained.

Disagree.
With the Light you have a choice. Otherwise Illidan would not have been able to refuse it.

[Aucald]

That might be so but even by Azeroth standards the light is incredible fickle and as such unreliable.

Even moreso than the Elements? They've always struck me as the most fickle of the powers in the Warcraft universe.

So did any other cosmic power, and still several of them are utterly repulsive

Well, I don't think the Fel or the Void have ever acted in such a capacity, not in an external fashion at least.

Unfortunately the only true light wielders strayed from their path, may the blood knights rest in peace and the sad joke that replaced them be mocked for their foolishness.

Elves who tortured the Light out of a being that never offended them? I mean, from an external perspective I miss the original Blood Knights as well as they were a unique take on Light-wielders within the story, but that doesn't extend to thinking them as "true" or by extension "good." Torturing a Naaru and stealing its Light for yourself isn't a great look.

[Combatbutler]

Disagree.
With the Light you have a choice. Otherwise Illidan would not have been able to refuse it.

It was not the lights choice to let him disagree, Illidan simply defied it.

[Shadowferal]

It was not the lights choice to let him disagree, Illidan simply defied it.

He rejected it...and lived.

[Super Dickmann]

He rejected it...and lived.

That's because he fried the windchime responsible not because the Light was interested in giving him a say.

[Combatbutler]

Even moreso than the Elements? They've always struck me as the most fickle of the powers in the Warcraft universe.

The elements will flat out tell you no, but might still be persuaded. The light might literally abandon you in your most dire hour, if you get doubts with people around you dying and they are relying on you, but you can't help because you are afraid this might be too much to handle.

Well, I don't think the Fel or the Void have ever acted in such a capacity, not in an external fashion at least.

The light itself didn't interfere there either, just a zealous believer channeling it.

Elves who tortured the Light out of a being that never offended them? I mean, from an external perspective I miss the original Blood Knights as well as they were a unique take on Light-wielders within the story, but that doesn't extend to thinking them as "true" or by extension "good." Torturing a Naaru and stealing its Light for yourself isn't a great look.

The order was made up mostly by those, who were abandoned by the light, prime example Liadrin. And to be honest the damn windchimes should not be tolerated anywhere, they are just like recruiters for the cult of the damned waiting for an opportunity to mess with people to get what they want.

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He rejected it...and lived.

Yeah because no other light entity was left to enforce it, Turalyon tried to kill him directly afterwards though, but simply was too weak to finish the job.

[Shadowferal]

That's because he fried the windchime responsible not because the Light was interested in giving him a say.

I admit I think the whole spiel over Legion was just shitty written in anyway.
Illidan should have stayed dead back in TBC.

[Super Dickmann]

I admit I think the whole spiel over Legion was just shitty written in anyway.
Illidan should have stayed dead back in TBC.

I like some elements but dislike others. Like the character shilling was way overboard, but things like frying Xe'ra and opening a portal to Argus were both really in character. It's just the consequences for both were super lacking. I'd have liked the Lightforged/Maiev to be more pissed at him.

[Aucald]

The elements will flat out tell you no, but might still be persuaded. The light might literally abandon you in your most dire hour, if you get doubts with people around you dying and they are relying on you, but you can't help because you are afraid this might be too much to handle.

The Light is also known to buoy those floundering in such doubts, such as it did with Jorad Mace and Turalyon. I think this abandonment is less a product of the Light and more inherent in the wielder itself, especially when you're seemingly talking about Arthas who abandoned the Light not out of desperation but hate and rage for Mal'ganis.

The light itself didn't interfere there either, just a zealous believer channeling it.

Tirion beseeches the Light for aid, and it responds in a way never seen before. Not too dissimilar from interventions like those of Elune, or the Naaru directly concerning Crusader Bridenbrad.

The order was made up mostly by those, who were abandoned by the light, prime example Liadrin. And to be honest the damn windchimes should not be tolerated anywhere, they are just like recruiters for the cult of the damned waiting for an opportunity to mess with people to get what they want.

Liadrin herself belies that sentiment, whether or not you approve of it. Given the givens at least in terms of the narrative, I'm inclined to at least trust her perspective.

[Shadowferal]

I like some elements but dislike others. Like the character shilling was way overboard, but things like frying Xe'ra and opening a portal to Argus were both really in character. It's just the consequences for both were super lacking. I'd have liked the Lightforged/Maiev to be more pissed at him.

That's another problem I see...him having that much power to kill a naaru cheapens the naaru quite a bit.

[Aucald]

That's another problem I see...him having that much power to kill a naaru cheapens the naaru quite a bit.

Although it is speculation on my part, I like to think that the Light took a bit of umbrage at the way Xe'ra was trying to use it - and perhaps shied away from her giving Illidan the window needed for him to rally his own essence and blow Xe'ra to bits. We know the Naaru are exceedingly powerful once moved to act, and Xe'ra being an Elder Naaru would likely be even more so - but in abusing the essence of the Light for her own ends, she may have gained enough of its enmity to get herself snuffed out by an enraged Demon Hunter.

[Astalnar]

It's between WoD and BfA. WoW would be a better game lorewise without them.