Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Black Goat]

I really should not bother, since it's just the implication of your last paragraph, not an exact words used case. No, you don't say "a lot of people" or anything like that. You only speak about "people" being so passionate about it that they would take the private server risk, and that them being able to play safely implies that Classic will be a success, even using embellishing terms like "tremendous" and "immense". All I was saying is that due to that, your argument is weakened.

That's because you cite an example, i.e. those who put truly a lot of effort into putting up those private servers etc. and designate them with "people". Then, you use "people" again when you talk about those who can play it safely now. They are both addressed the same way, which causes conflation - those passionate enough to set up private servers with those who play on them - and thus implies that they have the same passion.
Mind you, that's not really an accusation as much as a pointing out of an issue with the argument. I know myself how easily one can just use "people" multiple times without deliberately wanting to conflate. It just happens, and it tends to take away from the argument.

I'm really confused what point you're trying to make here. Is it not people that make private servers? Is it not people that play games? Should I call them animals or mammals instead? Have you seen what it takes to make and maintain a private server? And what are you trying to say when you use the word "conflate"? I don't think it means what you think it means.

I hate to say this, but if you can't see the difference between: "I think mozzarella cheese is the best..." and "Most people think mozzarella cheese is the best..." then I can't clarify this any more as to why using logical fallacies is completely different than whatever it is you're accusing me of.

You accused me of doing the same thing as the other poster. Which... you even admitted, I'm not doing. What gives?

[Otimus]

One common complaint I keep hearing is that all these things kill socializing in the game. Yeah, okay, fine.

You know what I think does far more harm to socializing in the game? The fact that, since launch, you could do pretty much everything except a tiny part of the game solo. No one wants to ever admit that part. (Because when you start to look at it that way, a lot of arguments start to fall apart). If they wanted things to be socially engaging, then leveling itself should have been a social activity, and it wasn't. Hell, that was the draw of WoW, that you could level solo. NOT ONLY could you level solo, but grouping up to level has pretty much always been a detriment. You get PUNISHED for leveling with friends, instead of actively being rewarded (Save for when recruit a friend existed. Hell, in classic, even people of your same faction were a detriment to even be near, as they could actively harm your ability to level, and trying to group with them was sort of detriment as well, because, again, you're punished for grouping up unless it's in a sectioned off, cut off from the world instance.)

Like I keep saying, WoW has had a huge consistency problem, and almost all of it's solutions to it have been "Uhhhhhhh... I don't know, just make everything easy and dangle some key chains in front of their faces so they don't notice! Now, throw more money at raiding, STAT!"

[Feral Druid ist Op]

That's why you say fu to such guilds and just quit.

Such guilds clear the raid in top 100 range, and have tanks and healer that trading me my gear and trinkets I'm quite happy here.
But other worse guilds who do not have this privilege and have bad luck with loot have to farm lfr trinekts.

[cparle87]

Personally, because LFR is a gateway to let Blizzard add catchup mechanics. The real evil.

One problem with your theory, though. There have been catchup mechanics in the game since 2.4 (March of 2008). LFR was not added until 4.3 (End of November 2011).

[Hctaz]

Actually, if what you said at the end actually happens, you won't get anymore raids, period. Blizzard has said that if LFR didn't exist, they would stop making raids because it takes too much resources and time to do. So because of LFR, your raids exist nowadays.

Blizzard can say whatever they like. Doesn't mean it's the truth. Awfully convenient that this one statement kille two birds with one stone by quelling the unrest from raiders not only about LFR being implemented but also how shit the quality of the raids were in Cata. Awfully convenient...

[Kneth]

if you have a problem with that, that is your tough luck. It seems like you are not playing this game for fun but for some imaginary status of superiority.

i'm not playing the game at all.. i stopped playing retail because of the current goal blizzard have in mind for the game, which is adding more stuff like LFR and making everything in the game easily accessible for everyone, including people that don't have time to play the game.
(Not to mention titanforging and warforging being the worst mechanic in the games history)

It didn't use to be like that, and that's what i loved about the game, they changed it and now i think it sucks..

[nekobaka]

Actually, if what you said at the end actually happens, you won't get anymore raids, period. Blizzard has said that if LFR didn't exist, they would stop making raids because it takes too much resources and time to do. So because of LFR, your raids exist nowadays.

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...03230542442496

Q:I have read posts that claim you have said LFR saved raiding from bean counters and the chopping block. I cant find this. T/F?
A:There are no "bean counters" -- just us prioritizing. Can justify larger raids, more art, when it's not just a few seeing it.

[Cracked]

It does? How? I don't remember Mythic/HC becoming any easier when DS LFR was released. I don't remember that supposed dip in recruiting, either.

You sure you didn't just make that stuff up?

It's quite anecdotal, but when DS and LFR came out, I quit organized raiding altogether. I started again at some point 2 expansions later, but my motivation to do so became different.

[TheRevenantHero]

i'm not playing the game at all.. i stopped playing retail because of the current goal blizzard have in mind for the game, which is adding more stuff like LFR and making everything in the game easily accessible for everyone, including people that don't have time to play the game.
(Not to mention titanforging and warforging being the worst mechanic in the games history)

It didn't use to be like that, and that's what i loved about the game, they changed it and now i think it sucks..

So it sucks because there is no longer a super entitled small fraction of the game lording over the rest of the players and mocking them for being "casuals"? Well then I'm glad you quit. We don't need players with your mentality making the community any more toxic than it already is.

[Usagi Senshi]

the people who never leave the lfr bubble werent raiding before lfr anyway. its entire reason for creation was low raid participation

This is literally the reason LFR was made and was mentioned in several interviews as far back as 2006 (Blizzard said a similar PVE mode might be necessary at some point when xrealm BGs launched). Throwing millions at raid modes to only please sub 5% of the player base was extremely asinine.

People typing up essays to claim anything else are extremely stupid and delusional.

Also, they just want to gate keep to maintain control over "lesser" players. I know as I used to do that.

I raided for 10 years and don't ever want to join a raid team ever again because I hated getting home and making sure I was on at a certain time in order to do content I enjoyed. I've always valued the non-raid parts of MMOs more anyway as they are more core to the genre as a whole

I still have 6-7 friends I've met through random BGs, LFD, and LFR since 2006 so there goes that anti-social bullshit excuse too.

[Kiri]

I'm really confused what point you're trying to make here. Is it not people that make private servers? Is it not people that play games? Should I call them animals or mammals instead? Have you seen what it takes to make and maintain a private server? And what are you trying to say when you use the word "conflate"? I don't think it means what you think it means.

I hate to say this, but if you can't see the difference between: "I think mozzarella cheese is the best..." and "Most people think mozzarella cheese is the best..." then I can't clarify this any more as to why using logical fallacies is completely different than whatever it is you're accusing me of.

You accused me of doing the same thing as the other poster. Which... you even admitted, I'm not doing. What gives?

Really? It's not about being people, it's about using "people" first to refer to the people who make those servers, i.e. those who pour a lot of time and energy into it, despite the threat of being shut down, but are a relatively small group. And then, "people" is used to refer to the people who can now play classic safely, implying those who played on the servers, a bigger group, with no distinction being made, in an argument as to why enough people will play it to be successful. Conflating in this case means combining those who just played on a private server and those who made them into one big group of people in a way that implies every one of them has the passion of the creators.
Then again, you somehow think I am accusing you of something still, when I already pointed out that something like that can easily happen if one isn't overly careful.

[pinelakias]

Ill give you a few reasons.
A) Because it destroys community. Please, tell me the name of one person in your yesterdays Random LFR that you remember. Tell me one time you found an LFR group that used the chat or didnt use it just to troll somebody. Meanwhile, I did a "random" group for RFC with people from the general chat about 5 days ago and I still remember their names. Hell, one of them sent me a whisp 2 days ago to join him in SFK :P

B) Gear stats and all that BS. Nowadays, every 2 expansions they make a stat squish because BfA started with 200 and is now (mid-expansion) at 450 while WotLK started with like 150~ and ended with 290. Of course, we blame this also to the F-ing casino they just wont get rid of. Thats because blizzard takes into account LFR, LFR warforge, LFR titanforge, Normal, Normal warforge, Normal titanforge, Heroic, Heroic war, Heroic titan.... This is complete BS.

C) Makes raiding for old-school raiders kinda meaningless (also at fault with the casinoforge). I used to raid in TBC and WotLK with my guild. We wasted a lot of time to do content that wasnt for everyone, that was only for those that would waste their own real lives to achieve. Then LFR happened. My guild disbanded with the same patch because what we did, everyone had access to. I mean, even some members from Paragon stopped playing when they saw LFR (a hunter of theirs was quite friendly with me, said they had at least 5 major departures with LFR release, which is quite big for a guild with, I think, less than 40 people)

There are soo many reasons to remove LFR and casinoforge and probably none to keep either of those things.

PS. Lightning's Blade FTW! :P

[Ashina]

Because it promotes mediocrity and teaches players nothing. There's no risk, no challenge and because of that 90% of players AFK through it doing 4k DPS while being carried by that one guy putting in some effort to do group content.

It's a freebie for lazy idiots and anyone who defends it is part of this category of ingame trash.

[pinelakias]

It's quite anecdotal, but when DS and LFR came out, I quit organized raiding altogether. I started again at some point 2 expansions later, but my motivation to do so became different.

Lots of people did. Used to be in Lightnings blade, home of paragon, we had quite a few raiding guilds. When LFR appeared, entire guilds disbanded, paragon had some casualties (but lets be real, they were a 40~ person guild max, I think they were closer to 30 really). Raiding after LFR was simply meaningless. Most of us were raiding because we felt superior to those that did nothing to experience the content. But then Blizzard decided to f*ck this game up and reward useless players. Yes offense.

[Dastreus]

The first wave of hate it got was from special snowflake raiders feeling like other people getting (inferior) epics was so bad, because they were no longer the unique people they thought they were. Nowadays there's still some of that, but the difficulty was nerfed so hard that people don't have to try, and even troll.

[TheRevenantHero]

Lots of people did. Used to be in Lightnings blade, home of paragon, we had quite a few raiding guilds. When LFR appeared, entire guilds disbanded, paragon had some casualties (but lets be real, they were a 40~ person guild max, I think they were closer to 30 really). Raiding after LFR was simply meaningless. Most of us were raiding because we felt superior to those that did nothing to experience the content. But then Blizzard decided to f*ck this game up and reward useless players. Yes offense.

If guilds disbanded over LFR then that means they were just a bunch of entitled little brats that were pissed that they couldn't lord over the "casuals" anymore. LFR doesn't prevent people from raiding. Just because you were part of the 5% that experienced the raid anymore doesn't mean you had to stop raiding. If guilds disbanded then I'm fucking glad. Cause that's a lot of toxicity that isn't needed in the community.

[Minathal]

LFR was a good way to get your 4 tierset quicker, but i don't use it anymore but other players have a way to see the game, so let them have their fun.

[MoanaLisa]

First of all, describing making more time in your life to play a video game as "lazy" as some have is quite the statement.

You get older. You do have less time because you've got more things in your life. Perhaps a spouse, kids, family. Perhaps you've now got a job that has you in front of a monitor for most of the day. Maybe being in front of a monitor to raid isn't really the thing at the top of your list. Maybe your job isn't an office job and when you come home, you're just tired and a little bit brain-dead and don't need to experience the joys of being yelled at by anyone.

The fact is as you get older your life can get a little more full of things. These people aren't wrong to want to be able to drop in and see the game they've played for years. They're not lazy either and it's stupid and insulting to say they are. As for life choices, if you really think WoW is a great choice instead of sitting down to a family meal, taking the time to go see a movie, spending time taking your kids to soccer practice, or just chilling out with them in front of the TV you're free to make that choice.

Life is a lot more than video games, as much as we love them, and for my money the terrible choice is to ignore the rest of your life so that you can spend hours playing them.

- - - Updated - - -

Lots of people did. Used to be in Lightnings blade, home of paragon, we had quite a few raiding guilds. When LFR appeared, entire guilds disbanded, paragon had some casualties (but lets be real, they were a 40~ person guild max, I think they were closer to 30 really). Raiding after LFR was simply meaningless. Most of us were raiding because we felt superior to those that did nothing to experience the content. But then Blizzard decided to f*ck this game up and reward useless players. Yes offense.

If guilds actually disbanded due to the advent of LFR that says more about the guild than it does LFR. If people who were skilled enough to play with a guild like Paragon abandoned the guild to do LFR instead that says to me they were not enjoying raiding any longer. I can understand that. If most raiders as you state were raiding to feel superior to everyone else, well...wow. That says a lot about raiding and it's problems.

[Otimus]

Throwing millions at raid modes to only please sub 5% of the player base was extremely asinine.

All that pretty much needs to be said, but it has been said over and over and over, and over and over... and over and over and over... and over and over, and people just plug their ears and go "LA LA LA LA LA, LA LA LA LA". To the people who think LFR ruins the game, do you think Blizzard should put less money toward raiding? I honestly think they should. It should not be the core focus of the entire game (and despite what you may want to say, it is, and it's where most of the post-launch money/content goes toward, and pretty much always has been. It's what most everything is designed for and balanced around, too.) when it's popularity has historically in the past, and currently, been an activity that almost no one wants to participate in, and has to practically be bribed to do. Even LFR numbers aren't as terribly high as they probably ought to be, basically at any point in it's existence, really, for it to be the bane people make it out to be. Either Blizzard should make things for the audience they have, or they should make a stance where they say "We're okay with losing a lot of subscribers by designing the game just for one particular kind of player.", just be freaking consistent. Because that's the problem, everything is god damned so inconsistent. If people want to cite the higher numbers pre-LFR, I want to ask -- why the hell weren't those people raiding then, then, and why would that even matter? If you take that as true, it either means one of two things: The large amount of people got the end, and realized it sucked, and quit because they got bored or they quit because they just ran out of things to do, and felt like doing anything past that wasn't worth bothering with (Basically a less harsher version of what I just said). Either ways, it can't logically be raiders being upset... because a very small amount of people even stepped foot in a single raid and killed a single boss, like ever. Even the stupid easy ones. Even the ones that were super easy to pug, or ones that got turbo-nerfed with a 30% buff. EVEN when patches came and rocket boosted player overpoweredness at the end of MoP and flex raiding made it easier than ever. Not even talking killing all bosses. Just a single damned boss. People live in this weird bubble where either A) they think everyone was raiding or B) they think everyone wanted to raid, and was trying to raid, but apparently millions of those people just seemingly never actually did it, because, like, that totally makes sense and stuff!

WoW is definitely a raiding centered game, it's the core of the game, more or less always has been but almost none of the people playing it care about it, and the core of what a classical MMO raid design is like, at definite tonal odds with the actual player base WoW has, and how like.... practically almost all content you do pre-level cap is ALSO tonally at odds with that design. (Like... you don't have to know how to play or socialize to level... leveling with other humans actually makes you level slower. You get an XP penalty for playing with friends. It SHOULD be the other way around if you want to embrace sociality in an MMO game, and this was true, even in classic. In fact, it was the DRAW of WoW, that it was this easy MMO that you could solo level, and all the little "fun bits" were sectioned off in "safe" little instances. That design pretty much has murdered most all forward mobility in the MMO genre now, IMHO.)

[Twdft]

A) Because it destroys community. Please, tell me the name of one person in your yesterdays Random LFR that you remember.

Anyone can raid, you just have to look up which guilds raid on your server and ask nicely. LfR players didn't do this before LfR and they will not do it when you take LfR away from them. These players never were part of your community. You could as well ask if anyone remembers a player they met on a world quest.