Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Black Goat]

Hating LFR is 100% people insecurities.

No, that's your invalid opinion. You know fuck-all about me, so check your psycho-analysis at the door. I have presented very concise, and respectful reasons as to why I believe LFR is damaging to the mentality of the MMORPG player. Whether you have chosen to read them or not is up to you. That's not my problem.

Hating LFR has literally nothing to do with my ego or insecurities. But it seems none of you who support LFR can grasp that there might be logic to our claims. You all just want to assert that it's a personal thing, call us names, degrade our opinions. Even the creator of LFR says it was a mistake, and you've insulted him all the same. A meager MMO-C poster feels they have the mindset to insult someone who helped make World of Warcraft. What does that say about your insecurity when you can't even listen to an opposing view and try to understand it, hm? When all you can do is insult it and scoff at it, that's a huge red flag for an insecure person. And that's all I see from the pro-LFR folks.

And as for your ramblings regarding what's good for the game and statistics, what's good for the game doesn't always bring in the big bucks. LFR opens up raiding to those who would never see the raid otherwise. While detrimental to the game, I'm sure it brings in substantial income to Blizzard. I'd wager it's all about the money. So next time you want to accuse me of not thinking about it, I suggest you think about who you're responding to.

[scarletanh]

I disagree. That's where the genre is NOW but getting gear for all activities is certainly NOT an aspect of the MMORPG. You can also make things really fun. But giving out rewards makes it easier to keep people logging in, sure.

Every time I argue with pro-LFR people, they always say how it's not about the gear ("the gear is really bad anyways", etc) and instead it's about letting people see the story. But that's a lie. It is 100% about the gear ... because if you got rid of gear from arena, a lot of people would still play it. If you removed gear from battlegrounds, a lot of people would still play them. If you removed gear from hardcore raiding, a lot of players would still do them (they wouldn't do it over and over as much, granted, because unlike PvP, PvE is more about manipulating people into doing these they don't enjoy over and over with rewards). If you removed gear from LFR a very small percentage of players would do them, especially more than once.

I think it would be a neat experiment. Remove rewards FROM EVERY ASPECT of the game and see what people still do (everyone is top level with equal gear). I think you'd be surprised who keeps playing (people who like a challenge, or ... in other words, people doing hard more things (or content hard for them, like myself and my casual guild doing normal raids back in wrath) and people doing PvP). If you NEED rewards to compel people to do the content, the content is probably not that great.

I laughed so hard at this lol. Tell me one MMORPG where gear is not matter and people doing purely for what you said: challenge.
And lol, you should probably read more on people ranting there's no incentive for doing arena when you get hardly any reward for doing so much.

[kebabmasterxd]

No its not my opinion, blizzard is doing changes to game according to their statistics, thats the hard to swallow pill right? See how long LFR lasted and is still going?
Thats because they know it is beneficial to game.

Now what is completely dumb is trying to force your opinion to others as having options has never been bad idea.
I bet you never really thought hard enough about it but there are multiple valid reasons why LFR is good.

For once, for mythic raider like me, LFR is good because i like to somehow test my things there. Training dummy it not always sufficient.
Or when I'm bored I can go there mindlessly bashing buttons with one of my alts.

There was only one time when I hated LFR, it was in legion where I was somehow forced to run it since I really wanted that BiS legendary on my main. But it wasn't LFR fault, it was stupid legendary system fault.

Hating LFR is 100% people insecurities.

news flash, the creator of LFR regrets making it, he wish he never did. clearly he saw the damage it did.

[Osmeric]

When I hear some random guy on MMO-C moaning about how terrible TF is because it's forcing him to do a whole ton of content he hates, I just facepalm. Because clearly he doesn't get it.

TF does even more. It encourages the more geared player to continue to play with lesser geared players. And with loot trading, it lets the un-TFed gear that drops for them go to those lesser players. It's a naturally social catch-up gearing mechanism.

- - - Updated - - -

news flash, the creator of LFR regrets making it, he wish he never did. clearly he saw the damage it did.

He was disappointed in how it turned out, but I think he was more disappointed that the audience for his game design ideas wasn't as good as he wanted them to be (some comment about "grandmothers").

And that's ultimately what this is all about. If the game audience is not in line with the game design, the game design has to adapt, even if that makes game designers unhappy.

[kaminaris]

news flash, the creator of LFR regrets making it, he wish he never did. clearly he saw the damage it did.

News flash, he isn't a creator of LFR, he was one of the designing team. And he can regret all he wants now that he doesn't even work at blizzard. Funny how people bashed him and now he is somehow used as guru when your opinion aligns with him

[monkaW]

6 hours queue? WTF happen to BFA? in Legion it took like 15 minutes to get into any raid via LFR.

Most raid tier have 4 quarters, each quarter have 40-60 hours queue time, sometimes you met a tank played by a monkey but ofc the LFR heroes wont kick them (Not wrong,why would you kick the garbage if you can just wait for Determination stack), so you have to requeue and start over again.

[rhorle]

Most raid tier have 4 quarters, each quarter have 40-60 hours queue time, sometimes you met a tank played by a monkey but ofc the LFR heroes wont kick them (Not wrong,why would you kick the garbage if you can just wait for Determination stack), so you have to requeue and start over again.

Except they you can be in each queue at the same time. Which often results in entering the next wing at the same time as you finish the one you are in. If you are leaving the instance and not waiting for determination stacks to make it face roll that is on you. You don't have to queue again. You choose to queue again instead of sticking around. Unless of course you are the problematic player and given your history of post so far it is clear what camp you fall into.

[monkaW]

Except they you can be in each queue at the same time. Which often results in entering the next wing at the same time as you finish the one you are in. If you are leaving the instance and not waiting for determination stacks to make it face roll that is on you. You don't have to queue again. You choose to queue again instead of sticking around. Unless of course you are the problematic player and given your history of post so far it is clear what camp you fall into.

AFKing and leaving in LFR is not toxic, its freaking LFR you can do whatever you want.

And i also never said me leaving LFR is not my problem, strawmanning much? Do.whatever.you.want Its.LFR.nobody.cares.

[rhorle]

AFKing and leaving in LFR is not toxic, its freaking LFR you can do whatever you want.

Stated by the mindset of a toxic player. AFKing in any group content is toxic. Leaving isn't toxic unless you pull a boss while you do it. It isn't a strawman. You are using your choice to leave as direct proof that queue times take 6 hours. If no body cares about LFR why are you even run it? Clearly you care enough to queue for it for 6 hours or even an hour and just leave to queue again for the same wing.

[monkaW]

Stated by the mindset of a toxic player. AFKing in any group content is toxic. Leaving isn't toxic unless you pull a boss while you do it. It isn't a strawman. You are using your choice to leave as direct proof that queue times take 6 hours. If no body cares about LFR why are you even run it? Clearly you care enough to queue for it for 6 hours or even an hour and just leave to queue again for the same wing.

Wow so now im toxic for telling you to do whatever you want.
Also i never said nobody cares about LFR, i said nobody cares about what you do in LFR, why would you care about what people do in a content tuned for monkeys? Do you type "kick the 3k dps dude" in LFR every time? that makes you toxic.

The boss dies either way, sooner or later, 100%, stop losing your hair over something that doesnt matter.

[rhorle]

Wow so now im toxic for telling you to do whatever you want.

No you are toxic based on your post history (with only 26 posts) and saying that AFKing in group content is not toxic. If the boss dies sooner or later why would you leave the raid earlier to queue again for the same wing? You can't have it both ways. Either you care enough to queue and leave a bad group to queue again or you don't care what happens in LFR.

You literally used "losing your hair" as a reason for why 6 hour queues exist. Because you quit the group instead of staying around.

[Otimus]

Wow so now im toxic for telling you to do whatever you want.
Also i never said nobody cares about LFR, i said nobody cares about what you do in LFR, why would you care about what people do in a content tuned for monkeys? Do you type "kick the 3k dps dude" in LFR every time? that makes you toxic.

The boss dies either way, sooner or later, 100%, stop losing your hair over something that doesnt matter.

You actually could if you have more than single digit IQ, but lets be honest, its hard to find a guy with one in LFR.

People is in LFR because they're trash, otherwise Normal would take 1/4 of the time it takes to complete LFR.

Why else would you waste 6 hours queue time to be put in the same place with LFR heroes other than begging to get carried by Determination stacks.

I'd imagine these types of conversations are why you're being labeled as toxic. Mostly you're being rude and extremely hateful. That's a pretty poor attitude to have about things.

[david0925]

LFR has always depended on higher level players to fill the tank and healer roles. In Legion, people did it because of the chance at legendaries. In BFA, there's no reward worth going for so the entire raiding population is completely ignoring it, and the queue times have gone through the roof.

This is the problem with LFR. The long queue times mean that they're probably losing subscribers and they're going to have to put in something that encourages raiders to go into LFR and take the tank spots in order to reduce the queue. That's what the MOP and WOD legendary quest lines were there to do. It's why valor used to drop in LFR and not in other difficulties.

Without some sort of reward pushing higher level players into LFR, it doesn't work because no one will tank. And higher level players hate LFR. Every time they limit the rewards, all the higher level players bail and queue times go through the roof, pissing off the casuals. When they add in rewards, the higher levels come back but they are all pissed of that they have to do it.

It's a disaster.

Longer queue means role imbalance much more than player count. In fact player count almost has nothing to do with the queue for LFR. People are just afraid of being tanks/healer, especially when they are not as geared/experienced.

[Twdft]

Most raid tier have 4 quarters, each quarter have 40-60 hours queue time, sometimes you met a tank played by a monkey but ofc the LFR heroes wont kick them (Not wrong,why would you kick the garbage if you can just wait for Determination stack), so you have to requeue and start over again.

Quick tipp here: you can queue for all 4 quarters at the same time, when you are done with #1 you get into the next right away.

[kebabmasterxd]

News flash, he isn't a creator of LFR, he was one of the designing team. And he can regret all he wants now that he doesn't even work at blizzard. Funny how people bashed him and now he is somehow used as guru when your opinion aligns with him

Oh right.. didn't realise a very experienced game developer who worked on the many features of LFR and other games for that matter, opinion means nothing because you like LFR. what's your game design experience?

I know it's hard for someone like you to understand but any game developer who is open to the public like he was, is going to receive negative feedback, that's the nature of gaming communities.

[kaminaris]

Oh right.. didn't realise a very experienced game developer who worked on the many features of LFR and other games for that matter, opinion means nothing because you like LFR. what's your game design experience?

I know it's hard for someone like you to understand but any game developer who is open to the public like he was, is going to receive negative feedback, that's the nature of gaming communities.

You still didn't realize he was part of the team and he is not even a game developer right? He is game designer and you can read about how riot players sees him and his "designs":
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.co...ng-6-am-ramble

Multiple people bashing him for his decisions on WoW (and now LoL) and somehow he is right (when it's convenient for you)

My experience? I'm developer, one of the really experienced ones. First contact with development was in middle school with Pascal and later Delphi. I won some award for making openGL labyrinth with imported character models from Quake 3. Continued my career ever since. That would be 17 years I think as developer in which I learned a lot of things in the process, mostly new languages such as C, C++(for microcontrollers), PHP, Javascript, Typescript, C#, Lua and many more. In that time I also helped friends with some mobile gaming. Used Unity and Unreal engine but nothing really advanced.

Oh and you forgot ghostcrawler doesn't have that kind of experience because all he is doing is saying what is fun and how game should work.

He described his role at Blizzard as, "Systems design specifically is everything that is not level, story, quest, PvP or encounter design. My team handles everything from mechanics to items to trade skills to achievements to UI design." On the World of Warcraft message boards, he is known by his user name "Ghostcrawler". Street worked in a similar capacity with Blizzard as he did with Ensemble as a designer. "Game designers are not artists or programmers, but we use the tools developed by the programmers and the assets created by the artists to get content into the game. Programmers make the game run, artists make it beautiful, but it is the designer's job to make it fun."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Street

[kebabmasterxd]

You still didn't realize he was part of the team and he is not even a game developer right? He is game designer and you can read about how riot players sees him and his "designs":
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.co...ng-6-am-ramble

Multiple people bashing him for his decisions on WoW (and now LoL) and somehow he is right (when it's convenient for you)

My experience? I'm developer, one of the really experienced ones. First contact with development was in middle school with Pascal and later Delphi. I won some award for making openGL labyrinth with imported character models from Quake 3. Continued my career ever since. That would be 17 years I think as developer in which I learned a lot of things in the process, mostly new languages such as C, C++(for microcontrollers), PHP, Javascript, Typescript, C#, Lua and many more. In that time I also helped friends with some mobile gaming. Used Unity and Unreal engine but nothing really advanced.

Oh and you forgot ghostcrawler doesn't have that kind of experience because all he is doing is saying what is fun and how game should work.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Street

Thanks for proving he is one of the creators then

So no experience on a large scale like WoW and making decisions? good to know.

you can twist things to fit your agenda as much as you like but you have a hard time accepting difference of opinions even when it came from someone who knows a lot more than you.

[Jester Joe]

You still didn't realize he was part of the team and he is not even a game developer right? He is game designer and you can read about how riot players sees him and his "designs":
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.co...ng-6-am-ramble

Multiple people bashing him for his decisions on WoW (and now LoL) and somehow he is right (when it's convenient for you)

That is probably the worst post I've ever seen trying to "bash" Ghostcrawler.

It makes little to no sense. "He shooting for the stars and trying to make the game last forever, THAT'S SO BAD, they should do this other obscure thing that makes no sense because maybe people who like LoL might enjoy an indie style sidescroller"

Mind you, Riot not producing new games at that time was highly irrelevant to Ghostcrawler, as it was something they established for a while going that they were putting all their chips on LoL.

But hey, remember the last time a company made it huge on a single success and then tried to branch out and now people hate them and their launcher?

[kaminaris]

That is probably the worst post I've ever seen trying to "bash" Ghostcrawler.

It makes little to no sense. "He shooting for the stars and trying to make the game last forever, THAT'S SO BAD, they should do this other obscure thing that makes no sense because maybe people who like LoL might enjoy an indie style sidescroller"

Mind you, Riot not producing new games at that time was highly irrelevant to Ghostcrawler, as it was something they established for a while going that they were putting all their chips on LoL.

But hey, remember the last time a company made it huge on a single success and then tried to branch out and now people hate them and their launcher?

I didn't even read it lol, you can find thousands of threads about ghostcrawler and "his failures". I mean, i don't really give a damn about him at all.
I'm well aware he is not solely responsible for decision neither on WoW and LoL. BUT.

He was bashed when he worked at WoW, he was bashed now as he works at LoL, but when it's convienient and says something that aligns with minority, he is used as exemplary guru. Which is just laughable. It is not example, him disliking idea of LFR means nothing.

The fact LFR was introduced in game and stayed while other brilliant ideas (such as legendaries in legion) were scrapped is a proof blizzard is learning from their mistakes and LFR ain't one.

[Jester Joe]

I didn't even read it lol, you can find thousands of threads about ghostcrawler and "his failures". I mean, i don't really give a damn about him at all.
I'm well aware he is not solely responsible for decision neither on WoW and LoL. BUT.

He was bashed when he worked at WoW, he was bashed now as he works at LoL, but when it's convienient and says something that aligns with minority, he is used as exemplary guru. Which is just laughable. It is not example, him disliking idea of LFR means nothing.

I mean that's true about anyone.

I'm sure if Ion leaves WoW at some point and vaguely mentions that in hindsight he didn't like the idea of Classic, you'll get people jumping at the chance to be like, "SEE IT WAS BAD", meanwhile it could just be as simple as he would have rather people enjoy the content he helped make, rather than older content.

Granted now I see where you're coming from, but geez that LoL post made me sad to read.