Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Raelbo]

I dont need to argue why you're dense about accepting other peoples opinions,

You're right, you don't. All you need to do is keep using ad hominem. It tells us all we need to know.

also I dont need my opinions to be ran by you to be seen as valid.

Like I said, if you want to post an opinion, then back it up or accept that it will be dismissed as nonsense.

You also use a lot of strawman in your posts as well, to make your own argument sound appealing, maybe stop doing that too?

So instead of coming up with an argument of your own, you'll just make some spurious allegation about your opponent. Got it.

[Aliven]

I dont have to argue my opinion, you're just gonna have to learn to accept that people dont share your "lfr is keeping wow alive" opinion.

You will feel so much better when you come to peace with not everyone have to agree with everything.

Nu uh! U wrong.

[Jibjub]

I laughed so hard at this lol. Tell me one MMORPG where gear is not matter and people doing purely for what you said: challenge.
And lol, you should probably read more on people ranting there's no incentive for doing arena when you get hardly any reward for doing so much.

GW2 is pretty close. Gear matters, but not really all that much. Granted, it has a whole slew of other issues ... but it's pretty close to what I described and does well. It could do better with better design elements, so it's hard to tell what is effective and what is not (my whole GAMES ARE AN ECOSYSTEM argument). No holy trinity and very limited action bars, for example, are bad imo.

But what you're describing with "arena ranting" (dibs on that band name) is not my concept within a vacuum. It is within an existing paradigm and a culture of "get stuff" ... obviously if you have ONE system in a game that is less rewarding than other systems, then it will breed contempt. But if the ENTIRE game is designed to challenge and create fun instead of rewards (or, I should say GEAR UPGRADE rewards) then it wouldn't be nearly as bad. Further, if the ENTIRE genre went that direction, away from dopamine hits and addiction to more fun and emergent gameplay... I think it could work. Obviously, this all philosophical at this point, so it cannot be proved.

It's also anecdotal, admittedly. I do not enjoy constantly having to upgrade my gear. I like it to start the game, but there comes a point where it is exhausting. I don't even get excited by gear drops in retail anymore. It's just ... a chore at this point. In classic, while leveling -- or even in a single player RPG like Zelda -- I enjoy the process of self-improvement. But it has a tipping point. WoW reached that tipping point 9 years ago. I do, however, enjoy PvP and challenging content. If devs could produce content quicker (or someday with better procedural generation), I think you you'd be surprised how many people would not need constant gear drops and ilevel increases.

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It doesn't have to be about one or the other. But I already addressed this, so I get the feeling you're more about trying to convince people that LFR is a problem than in the actual truth.

I don't know if I ever said it's a "problem" ... it might be the best thing for this current iteration of WoW and the people who play it. I know the feature has made WoW less enjoyable for me. It made raiding casually incredibly more difficult and it made keeping a casual guild together a lot harder (it existed for a long time before Flex was introduced, and by then the damage was done). There are many problems with WoW (again, for me), most of them tied to cross-realm functionality and an increased reliance on gear upgrades to keep people playing, instead of a focus on innovation and fun and community to keep people playing.

I also think LFR could have been implemented in better ways for all parties involved ... but Blizzard took the lazy route. That, however, is a discussion for another thread.

[TheRevenantHero]

I dont have to argue my opinion, you're just gonna have to learn to accept that people dont share your "lfr is keeping wow alive" opinion.

You will feel so much better when you come to peace with not everyone have to agree with everything.

The people that claim LFR is bad for the game literally never have an argument that holds water and is easily countered. Then when you counter their point, they resort to ad hominem. If someone gave me a LEGITIMATE reason for LFR being bad for the game that wasn't full of holes, I'd be more understanding. But I have yet to see a proper argument other than personal feelings that people put forward in such a way that they act like those personal feelings are felt by the majority and not just them.

[Sykol]

People just think LFR is easy and actual end game raiding is hard, when in reality all of WoW is easy and the only difficult parts of raiding are finding a full group of people with IQs above a toaster.

[rhorle]

Stop strawmanning and use your brain a little bit. Queue time of any content on any game will always vary, this is basic logic.

And yet you claimed, and defended it, taking 6 hours instead of saying it is variable. Funny how you only bring that out after you get trashed. The queue time will not take you six hours unless you do as suggested and leave a run only to queue for that same wing.

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And here it is again.. the mindset of an organized raider. No, you dont need to do that. You have to design encounters based on the fact that this is a matchmade group, and the choreography i talk about is managed by a game system without any need to make a raid sit in for 5 minutes or longer before the fight. Without the need for the player to read pages full of guides. Because that is not what the LFR crowd wants to do.

So you want random non-raiders to concentrate on what to do while they have to do it a few seconds later? Again you are wanting the developers to add in a useless system that you keep stating is not something matchmade raiders have a use for. You can't have it both ways. Either there is no use for raid leaders in LFR or there is a use for them so an NPC system needs to fill that need.

[monkaW]

And yet you claimed, and defended it, taking 6 hours instead of saying it is variable. Funny how you only bring that out after you get trashed. The queue time will not take you six hours unless you do as suggested and leave a run only to queue for that same wing.

When did i defend it? Can you quote me on it?

I said why else someone would put up with 6 hours
a dude said "wait its 6 hours?"
i said yes 4 quarters bonus point if you leave because of monkeys
you said im toxic because im leaving
i said "Uh dude i can do whatever i want?"
you said "no dude you cant leave ure toxic"
i said "Yes i can? its LFR?"

Just FYI if you leave in LFR you get backfilled, stop losing your hair over it, people leave all the time, the casuals, the grandma, the mythic raiders, its fine.

Actually today i got 2 hours queue of 2nd quarter on EP and i afk feeding my cats thru it, if somehow 4 of the quarters take 2 hours each, 6-8 hours is possible, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Why did you get mad in the first place anyway?

[rhorle]

When did i defend it? Can you quote me on it?

Most raid tier have 4 quarters, each quarter have 40-60 hours queue time, sometimes you met a tank played by a monkey but ofc the LFR heroes wont kick them (Not wrong,why would you kick the garbage if you can just wait for Determination stack), so you have to requeue and start over again.

You defended your claim of saying it takes 6 hours of queue time. You even said in that quote 40 to 60 hours of queue time but clearly that is a typo. You were however doubling down on 4-6 hours of queue time per each wing. Then said you have to start all over again when you queue for the same wing after you leave. It does not take 4-6 hours per wing. You can even reduce it to the usual 1 hour for all wings if you queue for them all at the same time. Yes server locations, time, and other factors can increase the queue.

[Big Thanks]

The people that claim LFR is bad for the game literally never have an argument that holds water and is easily countered. Then when you counter their point, they resort to ad hominem. If someone gave me a LEGITIMATE reason for LFR being bad for the game that wasn't full of holes, I'd be more understanding. But I have yet to see a proper argument other than personal feelings that people put forward in such a way that they act like those personal feelings are felt by the majority and not just them.

Didnt you read Osmeric post about Streets quotes on LFR?

LFR failed to do what it was intended to do!
It was originally designed in hopes to give "endgame" to casuals.

As i predicted, LFR was meant for this and it failed at it. Thats 2 LFR Blizzard creators saying they have doubts on LFR design.

What more do you need?

Osmerics post:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...8#post51603738

[TheRevenantHero]

Didnt you read Osmeric post about Streets quotes on LFR?

LFR failed to do what it was intended to do!
It was originally designed in hopes to give "endgame" to casuals.

As i predicted, LFR was meant for this and it failed at it. Thats 2 LFR Blizzard creators saying they have doubts on LFR design.

What more do you need?

Osmerics post:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...8#post51603738

Saying that LFR didn't turn into what they intended =/= LFR is toxic for the game. It just means that LFR didn't end up being what they originally wanted it to be. Also, there's no link to anything pertaining to where Street allegedly said that. I'm not saying it's a lie but I would also need a link to an article or interview being referenced.

[Big Thanks]

Saying that LFR didn't turn into what they intended =/= LFR is toxic for the game. It just means that LFR didn't end up being what they originally wanted it to be.

So now we have to live with the "downsides" of LFR for the sake of having a failed attempt at something that completely failed.
Or you have the opinion that LFR has ZERO downsides?

We already have quotes from 2 Blizzard LFR developers saying the downsides...

As i predicted, LFR is a failed "experiment" at a time when subs were droping like crazy.

The experiment was to give Casuals "endgame"
Every MMO game company failed at this, even Blizzard. Everyone is trying to find the secret formula for endgame to casuals in MMO's.

[monkaW]

Which part is the defending part?

First, i said "most"
Second, i said 6 hours for LFR Queue time, each quarter take 40-60 min (this is a typo from 40-60 hours, obviously)
Third, Ofc you start over again IF you leave, this is basic logic

Where exactly did i DEFEND my part, defending against what? who attacked my point? you?

[TheRevenantHero]

So now we have to live with the "downsides" of LFR for the sake of having a failed attempt at something that completely failed.
Or you have the opinion that LFR has ZERO downsides?

We already have quotes from 2 Blizzard LFR developers saying the downsides...

As i predicted, LFR is a failed "experiment" at a time when subs were droping like crazy.

The experiment was to give Casuals "endgame"
Every MMO game company failed at this, even Blizzard. Everyone is trying to find the secret formula for endgame to casuals in MMO's.

If LFR had been such a catastrophic failure, it wouldn't have lived on past Cataclysm. It would have been removed much like Challenge modes were.

So LFR didn't become 100% like what they had intended but it still achieved its goal to a degree. It supplies a form of endgame for casual players. So while maybe it failed with one goal, it succeeded in another. What downsides does LFR actually have in the game? I'm actually curious what you consider to be downsides caused by LFR.

[monkaW]

If LFR had been such a catastrophic failure, it wouldn't have lived on past Cataclysm. It would have been removed much like Challenge modes were.

LFR is not Challenge Mode, Challenge mode is gone because its intended to go away with the reward, otherwise people would just do it with the next expansion gear and ability.

Also did you just imply Challenge mode was a catastrophic failure? they did bring it back via Mage tower and M+ FYI

[TheRevenantHero]

LFR is not Challenge Mode, Challenge mode is gone because its intended to go away with the reward, otherwise people would just do it with the next expansion gear and ability.

Also did you just imply Challenge mode was a catastrophic failure? they did bring it back via Mage tower and M+ FYI

No. I was more saying LFR could be removed just as easily as Challenge mode was, albeit for completely different reasons. Then Blizzard could have reworked LFR and implemented it in some different way later. Much like your Mage Tower example.

[Big Thanks]

If LFR had been such a catastrophic failure, it wouldn't have lived on past Cataclysm. It would have been removed much like Challenge modes were.

So LFR didn't become 100% like what they had intended but it still achieved its goal to a degree. It supplies a form of endgame for casual players. So while maybe it failed with one goal, it succeeded in another. What downsides does LFR actually have in the game? I'm actually curious what you consider to be downsides caused by LFR.

It didnt failed completely, yes, it just ended up being something different.
A place to show the story and show the raids.

I already told my situation.
I dont find raiding to be a special place anymore because when I (me) can enter the easy mode at any time, that place no longer has a "feeling" of being special.

For me Vanilla was the best iteration because, on top of raids being "special", the gear from there was the best gear in the game.
So it was...DOUBLE SPECIAL.

In TBC we had arenas and easy to get pvp gear...the system crumbled completely (for me)

[Raelbo]

The people that claim LFR is bad for the game literally never have an argument that holds water and is easily countered. Then when you counter their point, they resort to ad hominem. If someone gave me a LEGITIMATE reason for LFR being bad for the game that wasn't full of holes, I'd be more understanding. But I have yet to see a proper argument other than personal feelings that people put forward in such a way that they act like those personal feelings are felt by the majority and not just them.

Yes, but we all know that LFR is terrible for the game. I mean isn't it obvious? It's so self evident and if you can't see that, you must be a simpleton idiot retarded moron cretin. Of course I have a really, really, REALLY good reason to back up this assertion, but like I keep on saying, it's sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo obvious, that I really don't see why I should bother. And neither should anyone else. Because it is THAT obvious that anyone who disagrees is just being difficult and placing unreasonable demands on my fingers to write out what everyone should just know already.


(/s)

[azka]

The people that claim LFR is bad for the game literally never have an argument that holds water and is easily countered. Then when you counter their point, they resort to ad hominem. If someone gave me a LEGITIMATE reason for LFR being bad for the game that wasn't full of holes, I'd be more understanding. But I have yet to see a proper argument other than personal feelings that people put forward in such a way that they act like those personal feelings are felt by the majority and not just them.

I don't think it is terrible for the game, but I also believe it doesn't feel special. When you and your guild are working on a mythic boss for days, and you finally kill it. That sensation is something that you cannot experience in LFR, and it's what makes raiding great.

LFR is like going to a great pub and having only water while sitting alone in a corner. I won't criticize you for doing it, but I may feel sorry for you.

[monkaW]

No. I was more saying LFR could be removed just as easily as Challenge mode was, albeit for completely different reasons. Then Blizzard could have reworked LFR and implemented it in some different way later. Much like your Mage Tower example.

Not really, Challenge mode should be removed at the end of every expansion, its by design, its to be expected, they told the player about this.

LFR is closer to Flying and M+, or other raid difficulty.

[TheRevenantHero]

It didnt failed completely, yes, it just ended up being something different.
A place to show the story and show the raids.

I already told my situation.
I dont find raiding to be a special place anymore because when I (me) can enter the easy mode at any time, that place no longer has a "feeling" of being special.

For me Vanilla was the best iteration because, on top of raids being "special", the gear from there was the best gear in the game.
So it was...DOUBLE SPECIAL.

In TBC we had arenas and easy to get pvp gear...the system crumbled completely (for me)

Vanilla raids were only special because nobody had any idea what the hell they were doing so raids were considered difficult. Once people knew how to play the game, raids in vanilla were an absolute cakewalk, something being proven in Classic.

But if you personally don't feel raiding is special because there's an "easy mode" then...well...that's on you. It's how you feel. But that doesn't mean that LFR is bad for the game. If people not feeling like raids were special enough anymore because of LFR was really a majority feeling, then the raiding community is much more elitist than I thought. I don't think that's the case though.

At the end of the day, everyone will have different PERSONAL feelings about LFR. But as a whole, it's not a bad thing for the game. It supplies a lot of people with the chance to see raids when they otherwise wouldn't get that chance. And I think that's a good thing.

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I don't think it is terrible for the game, but I also believe it doesn't feel special. When you and your guild are working on a mythic boss for days, and you finally kill it. That sensation is something that you cannot experience in LFR, and it's what makes raiding great.

LFR is like going to a great pub and having only water while sitting alone in a corner. I won't criticize you for doing it, but I may feel sorry for you.

And that's fair. But a lot of people can't commit to a mythic group for an assortment of reasons. Or they just don't want to. At the end of the day, they either don't care about that sensational feeling or just accept that their circumstances just don't make it possible for them. And there's nothing wrong with that.