Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Big Thanks]

@TheRevenantHero

Im not arguing for the removal of LFR at this point because:
-Its too late to go back
-Blizzard insists in putting story in raids
-Removing LFR would solve absolutely nothing at this point in time

But! If we could go back in time, i wouldnt have created LFR and instead create actual endgame for casuals...and remove the story from the raids.

My best solution for today would be to create Raids without any story and without easy modes. We could call it "Rifts" or some edgy name like that.
Preserving the "epic" feeling of a raid without much rage from the community,(aka removing LFR)

[TheRevenantHero]

@TheRevenantHero

Im not arguing for the removal of LFR at this point because:
-Its too late to go back
-Blizzard insists in putting story in raids
-Removing LFR would solve absolutely nothing at this point in time

But! If we could go back in time, i wouldnt have created LFR and instead create actual endgame for casuals...and remove the story from the raids.

My best solution for today would be to create Raids without any story and without easy modes. We could call it "Rifts" or some edgy name like that.
Preserving the "epic" feeling of a raid without much rage from the community,(aka removing LFR)

Eh, unfortunately, raids have been given story since AQ40. But I understand where you're coming from on that. It would be difficult to make raids with no story with every expansion, though. Because I feel like it would make it difficult to tell the full story of the expansion's villains.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

As long as LFR Hero keep being walled off with raider.io, i dont really care.

[rhorle]

Which part is the defending part? Where exactly did i DEFEND my part, defending against what? who attacked my point? you?

Explaining why a claim you made is true is defending it. I am not sure why you are having an issue grasping that. You were asked how 6 hours is possible and you defended that claim with examples. You used leaving and queuing again as a way to inflate the numbers to match your claim of 6 hours.

[Raelbo]

Didnt you read Osmeric post about Streets quotes on LFR?

LFR failed to do what it was intended to do!
It was originally designed in hopes to give "endgame" to casuals.

That's not what @Osmeric was saying at all.

What they originally wanted was for LFR to provide a means for people to experience raiding at a challenge level organised raiding, but without all the hassle of organised raiding. Unsurprisingly this was an impossible target.

That doesn't mean LFR failed. It simply meant that in order to make it successful they had to change what they hoped to accomplish with it. There is a difference between failure and alternative success.

You'll find in life that very few things ever turn out exactly how they were originally envisaged, and many of our greatest achievements and discoveries have been accidental outcomes when trying to achieve something else entirely.

As i predicted, LFR was meant for this and it failed at it. Thats 2 LFR Blizzard creators saying they have doubts on LFR design.

LFR failed or the players using it failed? Because at the end of the day, that's what Ghostcrawler is really describing: Players failing to live up to his vision, meaning that the LFR experience he wanted to create was impossible, not because of a design flaw, but because of the constraints of reality.

None of which, in any way whatsoever proves or demonstrates that LFR is bad for the game.

What more do you need?

A chain of logic explaining how you draw the conclusion that LFR is bad for the game?

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[MENTION=794498]But! If we could go back in time, i wouldnt have created LFR and instead create actual endgame for casuals...and remove the story from the raids.

My best solution for today would be to create Raids without any story and without easy modes. We could call it "Rifts" or some edgy name like that.
Preserving the "epic" feeling of a raid without much rage from the community,(aka removing LFR)

The reason they wanted to create LFR in the first place was so that non raiders could experience raiding. Essentially to make raiding less exclusive.

Taking the story elements out of raids wasn't going to magically solve the problem. And I don't see how trying to keep raids exclusive was going to help when the exclusivity was the problem they were trying to solve in the first place.

Besides, please explain what actual benefit there is to keeping raids exclusive is? Sure, making exclusive hard modes I totally understand, but where is the actual problem with having easier modes?

[Big Thanks]

That's not what @Osmeric was saying at all.

What they originally wanted was for LFR to provide a means for people to experience raiding at a challenge level organised raiding, but without all the hassle of organised raiding. Unsurprisingly this was an impossible target.

That doesn't mean LFR failed. It simply meant that in order to make it successful they had to change what they hoped to accomplish with it. There is a difference between failure and alternative success.

You'll find in life that very few things ever turn out exactly how they were originally envisaged, and many of our greatest achievements and discoveries have been accidental outcomes when trying to achieve something else entirely.

Ofcourse im not going to say "LFR is an absolute failure" but the fact is it failed for what it was "intended" to do...and turned out to be something completely different.

I said this many times and people didnt believe me.
I was even called for "strawmanning" with this "opinion" of mine.
But Osmeric detective work was amazing and somewhat confirms this.

It doesnt prove "LFR was created to stop the massive sub losses" which is what i believe.
But it proves LFR was designed originally to be "endgame" for casuals.

LFR failed or the players using it failed? Because at the end of the day, that's what Ghostcrawler is really describing: Players failing to live up to his vision, meaning that the LFR experience he wanted to create was impossible, not because of a design flaw, but because of the constraints of reality.

None of which, in any way whatsoever proves or demonstrates that LFR is bad for the game.

A chain of logic explaining how you draw the conclusion that LFR is bad for the game?

I know for a fact is bad for ME...because my brain stops being excited about raids...but is not only the fault of LFR.
Its many other things that are too late to go back to.
Gladly i have Classic and have zero expectations for LFR to be removed.

[monkaW]

Explaining why a claim you made is true is defending it. I am not sure why you are having an issue grasping that. You were asked how 6 hours is possible and you defended that claim with examples. You used leaving and queuing again as a way to inflate the numbers to match your claim of 6 hours.

No its not, explaining is explaining LOL, you're thinking of this way too deep.
Defending is a thing you do when you get attacked, when someone said "Wait its 6 hours?" its a question not an attack LMAO.

You're pure comedy gold please dont stop. : ) )

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Explaining why a claim you made is true is defending it. I am not sure why you are having an issue grasping that. You were asked how 6 hours is possible and you defended that claim with examples. You used leaving and queuing again as a way to inflate the numbers to match your claim of 6 hours.

All i can say is Yikes dude, you seem so insecure about LFR.

[Acolyyte]

Then go play classic. Also, I guarantee if they stayed with classic and made no changes whatsoever, this game would have ceased to exist years ago. There evolution to making the game more accessable is why the game has lasted for 15 years and counting.

Oh man I have! I havent touched retail since classic came out . Also, I think there may be an interesting future for retail WoW. With the success of classic I think the devs are realizing the growing trend in the gaming community today. Gamers today want a real challenge. Look at Dark Souls and Bloodborne, Nioh and Sekiro. Hard gaming has made a comeback. I think that the next xpac could very easily include a level squish and the return REAL talent trees, as well as a feature prune. Refocusing back on class identity and generating content that not every one and their fucking dog could see and do.

Wow has been in decline for a long time. A big part of that is the casualization of it. Nothing feels epic in Retail. My guild downed heroic azshara before classic released and it just didnt...matter. It took cooperation, sure, but it just didn't feel epic like the bosses of old. I'm so thankful for classic. These first 45 levels have already been more rewarding and fun than all of BFA. I've made friends, gotten to know my guildies much better, and enjoyed the flexibility and versatility of Classic classes, instead of the rigid and stilted BFA design.

So keep playing retail. It funnels money right into blizz's pockets and makes sure the true WoW experience will live on with classic.

[rhorle]

No its not, explaining is explaining LOL, you're thinking of this way too deep.

No. You are thinking of it way to deep. Over analyzing the word defend. You made a claim. Some people doubted the accuracy of that claim. You defended it by explaining the claim. Its funny how you played along with it all until you ran out of an argument and then had to turn to insults.

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All i can say is Yikes dude, you seem so insecure about LFR.

Another person making a false statement makes me insecure about LFR? You weren't even involved in the original discussion but still feel the need to insult.

[Mardux]

Oh man I have! I havent touched retail since classic came out . Also, I think there may be an interesting future for retail WoW. With the success of classic I think the devs are realizing the growing trend in the gaming community today. Gamers today want a real challenge. Look at Dark Souls and Bloodborne, Nioh and Sekiro. Hard gaming has made a comeback. I think that the next xpac could very easily include a level squish and the return REAL talent trees, as well as a feature prune. Refocusing back on class identity and generating content that not every one and their fucking dog could see and do.

Wow has been in decline for a long time. A big part of that is the casualization of it. Nothing feels epic in Retail. My guild downed heroic azshara before classic released and it just didnt...matter. It took cooperation, sure, but it just didn't feel epic like the bosses of old. I'm so thankful for classic. These first 45 levels have already been more rewarding and fun than all of BFA. I've made friends, gotten to know my guildies much better, and enjoyed the flexibility and versatility of Classic classes, instead of the rigid and stilted BFA design.

So keep playing retail. It funnels money right into blizz's pockets and makes sure the true WoW experience will live on with classic.

Those 45 levels are just as pointless as the next 14. Hate to break it to you, but the only rewarding part about them is being 1 level closer to cap. You also must be playing a different classic when you talk about flexibility of classes. That comment right there is enough to make people wonder if you're playing wow at all or if you're just that confused.

[TheRevenantHero]

Oh man I have! I havent touched retail since classic came out . Also, I think there may be an interesting future for retail WoW. With the success of classic I think the devs are realizing the growing trend in the gaming community today. Gamers today want a real challenge. Look at Dark Souls and Bloodborne, Nioh and Sekiro. Hard gaming has made a comeback. I think that the next xpac could very easily include a level squish and the return REAL talent trees, as well as a feature prune. Refocusing back on class identity and generating content that not every one and their fucking dog could see and do.

Wow has been in decline for a long time. A big part of that is the casualization of it. Nothing feels epic in Retail. My guild downed heroic azshara before classic released and it just didnt...matter. It took cooperation, sure, but it just didn't feel epic like the bosses of old. I'm so thankful for classic. These first 45 levels have already been more rewarding and fun than all of BFA. I've made friends, gotten to know my guildies much better, and enjoyed the flexibility and versatility of Classic classes, instead of the rigid and stilted BFA design.

So keep playing retail. It funnels money right into blizz's pockets and makes sure the true WoW experience will live on with classic.

Except Classic isn't hard and Vanilla wasn't difficult either. So to use the point of "difficult games are becoming more popular" when referring to WoW just doesn't make sense. As for flexibility of classes, sure they're "flexible". But if you don't follow specific builds, you're just gimping yourself and most people won't take you to their groups.

Classic hasn't even been active for a month so to claim that its popularity is going to shape the face of WoW is just silly. Every expansion launch has been just as popular, if not moreso. If Classic still has the popularity and population it does now after month two? I'll concede and say that Classic is a massive success and Blizzard should take note when going forward with Modern. If not? Then my point is proven that Classic is just the flavor of the week when it comes to hype and will quickly die down.

What you find rewarding is not what other people will find rewarding. I, for one, don't think the talent trees of Classic are very rewarding at all since they pretty much only have like 2-3 talents that make a big impact for your character with everything else supplying a miniscule buff to one of your class' existing abilities.

[Fred Skinner]

So you want random non-raiders to concentrate on what to do while they have to do it a few seconds later? Again you are wanting the developers to add in a useless system that you keep stating is not something matchmade raiders have a use for.

You misread me on purpose, obviously. Just say that you do not want the devs to put any additional effort into LFR.

You can't have it both ways. Either there is no use for raid leaders in LFR or there is a use for them so an NPC system needs to fill that need.

There is a use for choreography, which should be solved by a game system. That is all i talk about. If you ever want to discuss properly, come back to me.

[rhorle]

You misread me on purpose, obviously. Just say that you do not want the devs to put any additional effort into LFR.

You want me to lie just so you can be right? I have no problem with time being spent on LFR. I have a problem with time being spent on a system that there is no need for currently and one that is easily done filled now on most runs that need it. Developing a system when there is currently no need for it is a waste of resources. The problem is you do not see that because you can only see what you want your vision of the game to be.

[Newname1234567890]

Seeing the content is the reward. And of everyone and their grandma sees it then it doesnt feel very cool to have seen it.

Its a little bit like climbing Mount Everest, to stand on top of it and look out on the world. That wouldn't feel so epic if there was an elevator built on the other side, so after your climb youd stand next to some fat tourist who just came for the view and a selfie then went back into the elevator.

Think what you will of it but exclusivity goes hand in hand with sence of accomplishment. To set foot where noone has before and all that...

Then theres the "first impression" part. If a boss are hard they give a completly diffrent impression of the raid as a whole. Íf you slowly have to work your way throu the raid and fight hard for it. Seeing that content feels amazing. But if all is there to be seen without any effort whatsoever, its about as epic as doing a bunch of world Qs.

I realize this is an old comment but I couldn't allow the mountain of horseshit in to go unchecked:


So a few months a go I climbed Snowden, a large peak by uk standards but small compared with elsewhere. I'm overweight and climbing it was tiring but I did it without assistance and reached the top. It was an achievement, for me at least.

But theres also a train to top and I saw some people being helped up because they were injured or disabled. What I didn't think was 'Fuck these people for cheating their way up'.

So that whole exclusivity and sense of accomplishment thing just isn't true for everyone. It is true for people who buy bricks with supreme written on them. So congrats you share esteemed company!

Also why the fuck would you care what my first impressions of a boss are? I mean I don't care what yours are?

So again seems like your personality is flawed.

[Fred Skinner]

Developing a system when there is currently no need for it is a waste of resources. The problem is you do not see that because you can only see what you want your vision of the game to be.

There is a need for real gameplay in LFR. We obviously disagree about the ways to achieve that. If there even is a wish on your side to enhance LFR gameplay. I think that hour long queue times are no compelling gameplay. And i think that mechanics which are watered down to nothing are actually completely useless to give compelling gameplay.

Having blizzard to add troll fixes, as like limiting bomb effects to the issuer only, is surely no enhanced game mechanic. And you know that.

Beside that, the game system which choreographes LFR is just one step to get rid of LFRs gameplay issues. The other would be to allow players to see raiding content solo and in small groups, on different difficulty levels. Any dungeon and raid content should be optionally flex 1-n players.

Another solution is to completely change the gameplay in LFR, to replace the heigan dance where a raid leader has to count to 3 by a real engaging mechanic for typical matchmade players, as like the warfronts implementation shows.

[rhorle]

There is a need for real gameplay in LFR.

But why would people listen to a NPC over the adventure journal? That gives brief over views and detailed descriptions of the encounter? If they won't listen to players now they won't listen to an NPC that tells them the same things to do. It doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience with LFR currently. As 99% of the time the players listen to some one. When the group wipes most listen or the encounter gets explained better. An NPC doing that won't objectively make LFR better.

Gameplay won't "increase" if the players playing don't want to, or can't, do better.

If you want content to be solo friendly then just create a spectator mode. It solves everything with out creating a band aid solution that won't impact game play or encourage players to actually play the content.

Having blizzard to add troll fixes, as like limiting bomb effects to the issuer only, is surely no enhanced game mechanic. And you know that.

And adding an NPC system to explain or mark things will not start making everyone do the mechanics. You are delusional if you honestly believe it will. There are some mechanics that are seen as to hard for normal mode. Just as some are to hard for Heroic and are mythic only. Because contrary to your belief some mechanics are to hard even if explained by an NPC rather then a player. That isn't to say that LFR can't have hard mechanics. They just don't have much of a place when it is to "see the story".

[Fred Skinner]

But why would people listen to a NPC over the adventure journal? That gives brief over views and detailed descriptions of the encounter?

Because he forces them to do it. It would be a guided run. If you do not follow the directives, you would lose.

Contrary to a real raid, where reaching the group goal is the way to beat a boss, it should not be about tactics or dancing to the raidleaders voice, but about following directives. As like in warfronts, as i already wrote. Warfronts do not punish you if you do not follow instructions. But LFR probably should.

You should be aware of your gameplay. A game system could ask the players to do it. The system i talk about is not just a tutor, but also the raid leader, which tells you what to do, which puts you in groups you have to help in the upcoming fight, which joins the groups again. Which tells you to get to the end of tunnel in your group to get to the boss encounter. If you do not help in the fight, you get no loot.

In LFR, it should be about the directives of the game system. And neither about boss mechanics. And nor about "strategies" of a randomly generated group of 25 people, who waited 1 hour for two tanks and 5 healers.

If they won't listen to players now they won't listen to an NPC that tells them the same things to do.

Well, good luck with your wasted time. The only guy who gets trolled is the player who wont follow the directives. The other players, which succeeed to the tank and spank boss, which could be tanked by a hunters pet, would get the loot.

It doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience with LFR currently. As 99% of the time the players listen to some one. When the group wipes most listen or the encounter gets explained better. An NPC doing that won't objectively make LFR better.

Oh yeah, that must be the reason blizzard has to fix all trolling abilities, as like bombing the whole raid. Actually, LFR could offer real gameplay, and not just a wipe because more than 10 people did not read the adventure journal.

Gameplay won't "increase" if the players playing don't want to, or can't, do better.

Thats the thing. Every player in a matchmade component should have to follow instructions of the system, or he would not be rewarded. The AFK player could be afk, he wont get any loot. As the only one. The difficulty of the encounters would dynamically change to the number of players that contribute.

If you want content to be solo friendly then just create a spectator mode. It solves everything with out creating a band aid solution that won't impact game play or encourage players to actually play the content.

I see the idea to have a NPC guided raid, which also sets your task, which you have to complete, as the best solution to add meaningful gameplay to LFR. Which gives you tips. A guided tour is what LFR should be, with gameplay that asks the player for actions.

And as i said, no boss tactics. And no strategies you have to study before playing the theater mode raid difficulty.

[Newname1234567890]

It didnt failed completely, yes, it just ended up being something different.
A place to show the story and show the raids.

I already told my situation.
I dont find raiding to be a special place anymore because when I (me) can enter the easy mode at any time, that place no longer has a "feeling" of being special.

For me Vanilla was the best iteration because, on top of raids being "special", the gear from there was the best gear in the game.
So it was...DOUBLE SPECIAL.

In TBC we had arenas and easy to get pvp gear...the system crumbled completely (for me)

So because you dont feel special the vast majority of players shouldn't get to see content?

[Big Thanks]

So because you dont feel special the vast majority of players shouldn't get to see content?

If the story wasnt inside raids...then yeah.
Whats the point in putting a casual in a "make believe" raid? If it wasnt for the story...

Instead of LFR, something else should have been "invented" by Blizzard for a "casual's endgame".