Arcane torrent needed nerf but shadowmeld is fine??

[Tomana]

Horde racials were left much stronger for so long that we saw a giant shift in the faction balance of the playerbase for end game content that is now nearly impossible to fix.

Yeah right, because EMFH wasn't left OP for 3 expansions in a row. But hey, when it's all Alliance PVP ladders it's fine I guess

[Imurbandaid]

Interesting example, considering that Racial was the only way to kill M Kil'Jaeden for a while.

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Skipping a pack or two in M+ isn't "single-handedly cheesing end-game content".

Are you kidding me? Groups are skipping whole packs of the challenging trash and running from boss A to boss B and shadowmelding. Its skipping literally whole segments of dungeons completely cheesing them.

[Garymorilix]

Interesting example, considering that Racial was the only way to kill M Kil'Jaeden for a while.

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Skipping a pack or two in M+ isn't "single-handedly cheesing end-game content".

And what does M Kil'jaeden have to do with M+ cheesing?

If you had actually read what I wrote, I already said there is a huge difference between raid and m+.
Raid encounters become obsolete as soon as the world first is achieved.
M+ will work the same way the whole expansion (or even more expansions) so if something breaks that, it will keep breaking it cuz it will be always current content. A simple affix can't change that.

But I already proposed my solution: shared CD's. This way, nothing is nerfed, everyone should be happy.

[Imurbandaid]

And what does M Kil'jaeden have to do with M+ cheesing?

If you had actually read what I wrote, I already said there is a huge difference between raid and m+.
Raid encounters become obsolete as soon as the world first is achieved.
M+ will work the same way the whole expansion (or even more expansions) so if something breaks that, it will keep breaking it cuz it will be always current content. A simple affix can't change that.

But I already proposed my solution: shared CD's. This way, nothing is nerfed, everyone should be happy.

Shared cooldowns is an okay idea, but it doesn't stop a group that doesn't rely on potions of invis or shroud to begin with from running from boss A to boss B and shadowmelding. Its tricky to pin down what could fix it without completely gutting it rendering it useless, aside from a nice rework or just blocking racial abilities from M+ keystone runs.

Put in a mythic keystone, racial abilities are disabled, easy as that. Unfortunately this would hurt races who use their abilities that aren't OP. But if there is no good way to deal with it, it is a viable option.

[Renixis]

Yeah right, because EMFH wasn't left OP for 3 expansions in a row. But hey, when it's all Alliance PVP ladders it's fine I guess

Where did I say either faction dominating end game content is fine? It clearly isn't. A good balance is obviously healthy for the game and unlike pvp, which does have a good representation for both factions now, pve end game is heavily skewed towards horde.

[Mixxy]

The problem with Shadowmeld is that the M+ scene won't change. Jaina is a last tier boss now, no-one cares about that. Hell, no-one cared about it after the world first either. Shadowmeld's power will stay because no matter what affix blizz comes up with in 8.3, it won't affect Shadowmeld's ability to trivialize trash packs.

"Stealth detection". Look at that, I solved your game-shattering crisis in two words.

If Blizzard really thought Shadowmeld was a problem in M+, they could just sprinkle adds that it doesn't work on into packs. Hell, they're already doing that with Void Emissaries this season.

Shadowmeld doesn't need a nerf. Content is just designed to favour it right now. A complete lack of Stealth Detection, combined with instance design that very clearly has packs that are obviously, deliberately only there to slow parties down.
More to the point, how would you even go about nerfing it?
Have it not work in combat? Oh wow, now I can hide from mobs when there are no mobs!
Extend its cooldown? It's still going to be used to skip problematic trash packs.
Change it to something else entirely? It's literally the most iconic part about the entire Night Elf identity.

[Zequill]

Oh no, not a +18, this is like really really top key level right? Nope, look like 24 is what is cleared atm on live. I'm at page 500 on raider.io and I have not yet reach the +18.

I suppose you are talking about MDI but MDI is nothing like Live. MDI is a low key (for those peoples) and the goal is to get the fastest time. It's all about that timer.

Live is all about how high you can push the key. The timer is just a binary success/failure at higher key. You don't get better loot / weekly chest by clearing faster.

Asking a skill to be nerf on live for a event that as nothing to do with how live is played is beyond inane.

Now, if MDI would be about what team can push their key the highest, and they would still use 5 NE with 3 Rogues, you could have a case, but they are not.

[Garymorilix]

"Stealth detection". Look at that, I solved your game-shattering crisis in two words.

If Blizzard really thought Shadowmeld was a problem in M+, they could just sprinkle adds that it doesn't work on into packs. Hell, they're already doing that with Void Emissaries this season.

Shadowmeld doesn't need a nerf. Content is just designed to favour it right now. A complete lack of Stealth Detection, combined with instance design that very clearly has packs that are obviously, deliberately only there to slow parties down.
More to the point, how would you even go about nerfing it?
Have it not work in combat? Oh wow, now I can hide from mobs when there are no mobs!
Extend its cooldown? It's still going to be used to skip problematic trash packs.
Change it to something else entirely? It's literally the most iconic part about the entire Night Elf identity.

What does stealth detection has to do with Shadowmeld?
The stealth part of Shadowmeld is irrelevant, as you can't move with that.
The instant agro reset part of Shadowmeld is why it's used.
You can Vanish/Shadowmeld from any mob with true sight, they will just go back to their position.

Do you even play the game? Basic mechanics.

How is a shared CD still not okay for you? It's the most elegant solution here (like with the human racial back then).
If it shared a CD, nothing would need to be nerfed and you could keep it working the same way BUT it wouldn't be stackable. Cuz that's the problematic part.

[Imurbandaid]

Oh no, not a +18, this is like really really top key level right? Nope, look like 24 is what is cleared atm on live. I'm at page 500 on raider.io and I have not yet reach the +18.

And it will be op from +18...+24...+n. The higher the key the more ridiculous it is that it can completely trivialize large portions of dungeons.

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"Stealth detection". Look at that, I solved your game-shattering crisis in two words.

If Blizzard really thought Shadowmeld was a problem in M+, they could just sprinkle adds that it doesn't work on into packs. Hell, they're already doing that with Void Emissaries this season.

Shadowmeld doesn't need a nerf. Content is just designed to favour it right now. A complete lack of Stealth Detection, combined with instance design that very clearly has packs that are obviously, deliberately only there to slow parties down.
More to the point, how would you even go about nerfing it?
Have it not work in combat? Oh wow, now I can hide from mobs when there are no mobs!
Extend its cooldown? It's still going to be used to skip problematic trash packs.
Change it to something else entirely? It's literally the most iconic part about the entire Night Elf identity.

Stealth detection doesn't stop mob reset when a whole Group shadowmelds. They run past all the trash visibly until they are in a safe corner of a boss platform then drop all the aggro with shadowmeld. Stealth detection doesn't stop that.

[Garymorilix]

Shared cooldowns is an okay idea, but it doesn't stop a group that doesn't rely on potions of invis or shroud to begin with from running from boss A to boss B and shadowmelding. Its tricky to pin down what could fix it without completely gutting it rendering it useless, aside from a nice rework or just blocking racial abilities from M+ keystone runs.

Put in a mythic keystone, racial abilities are disabled, easy as that. Unfortunately this would hurt races who use their abilities that aren't OP. But if there is no good way to deal with it, it is a viable option.

Yea, well, a group that doesn't use either of those tactics are probably not going in the MDI .
My solution is for the MDI part.

[melzas]

"I'm not having fun, so I don't want anyone else to have fun."

How about, instead of nerfing Shadowmeld (which is already limited to only being useful in exactly one circumstance), we buff the bad racials so that they aren't bad anymore?

One scenario? Did you even read a post you qouted? I gave 5 scenarios where it's extremely strong, and those are only examples. I'll be so nice and list them again:

1. OPs example - team full of nelfs can skip ubreasonable amount of trash to push high m+ keys.
2. Nigt elf with a res can avoid dying during team wipe and res his team, saving a lot of corpse run time, crucial in m+ on all levels.
3. Nigth elf with a res can make a "death run" in m+, meaning entire team runs through trash then dies while nelf shadowmelds to res them. This can be done with various class abilities as well, like reincarnation, soulstone, etc. but no other racial gives you that option.
4. You can avoid being hit but powerful targeted abilities, like Rezan chase in AD or last boss' bullet in TD. Those are just examples though, because there is plenty of other abilities you can cheese with shadowmeld.
5. In arena it's by far the best healer racial in the game. Shadowmelding crucial cc like fear or sheep can outright decide the outcome of the fight.
6. In world pvp shadowmeld into flight form makes druids unkillable essentially.

And these are just scenarios from the top of my head. Definely not "exactly one circumstance" how you've put it. And not a case of 'nerf fun for others", but a case of "make it fun for everyone, no matter what race they pick".

[Baleful]

I can't even believe i am reading what i am reading.
People is not fine with an AOE silence on a 2 min CD, but is fine with an instant vanish, that lets you skip loads of trash and lets you skip mechanics on some bosses, in a 2 min CD. What?
The only reason why M+ community sticks to horde is because it's a better faction for raiding, and raiding is one (if not the most) important source of gear, specially when you approach the last patch of the expansion and they start making trinkets that are bonkers. Most of the M+ leaderboard uses trinkets from TEP, healers use the azshara weapon too.

[Mixxy]

Stealth detection doesn't stop mob reset when a whole Group shadowmelds. They run past all the trash visibly until they are in a safe corner of a boss platform then drop all the aggro with shadowmeld. Stealth detection doesn't stop that.

What does stealth detection has to do with Shadowmeld?
The stealth part of Shadowmeld is irrelevant, as you can't move with that.
The instant agro reset part of Shadowmeld is why it's used.
You can Vanish/Shadowmeld from any mob with true sight, they will just go back to their position.

How is a shared CD still not okay for you? It's the most elegant solution here (like with the human racial back then).

I dunno what to tell you guys. I main a Night Elf (because it's the only race my main is allowed to be) and Shadowmeld has never once successfully dropped threat from a mob with stealth detection, no matter how far away I get from it beforehand. Even in solo play.

A shared CD isn't a bad idea though. But that wouldn't stop a strong kiter from pulling everything to the far end of the instance, then Shadowmelding once the rest of the group is past where the packs should be.

One scenario? Did you even read a post you qouted? I gave 5 scenarios where it's extremely strong, and those are only examples. I'll be so nice and list them again:

1. OPs example - team full of nelfs can skip ubreasonable amount of trash to push high m+ keys.
2. Nigt elf with a res can avoid dying during team wipe and res his team, saving a lot of corpse run time, crucial in m+ on all levels.
3. Nigth elf with a res can make a "death run" in m+, meaning entire team runs through trash then dies while nelf shadowmelds to res them. This can be done with various class abilities as well, like reincarnation, soulstone, etc. but no other racial gives you that option.
4. You can avoid being hit but powerful targeted abilities, like Rezan chase in AD or last boss' bullet in TD. Those are just examples though, because there is plenty of other abilities you can cheese with shadowmeld.
5. In arena it's by far the best healer racial in the game. Shadowmelding crucial cc like fear or sheep can outright decide the outcome of the fight.
6. In world pvp shadowmeld into flight form makes druids unkillable essentially.

And these are just scenarios from the top of my head. Definely not "exactly one circumstance" how you've put it. And not a case of 'nerf fun for others", but a case of "make it fun for everyone, no matter what race they pick".

M+, M+, M+, M+, Arena, and World PvP.

World PvP is never something the game should be balanced around.

I'll give you the Arena thing though. Being able to avoid a CC one time in an Arena match is pretty good. Almost as good as half of the other strong PvP racials!

[Warning]

Shadowmeld is insanely broken in PVP, more so than in M+. It absolutely should be nerfed hard.

[Mixxy]

I can't even believe i am reading what i am reading.
People is not fine with an AOE silence on a 2 min CD, but is fine with an instant vanish, that lets you skip loads of trash and lets you skip mechanics on some bosses, in a 2 min CD. What?

I guess Alliance players are just excited to finally have a racial that's actually competitive in PvE content.
It's still a new sensation to us. Give it time.

The only reason why M+ community sticks to horde is because it's a better faction for raiding, and raiding is one (if not the most) important source of gear, specially when you approach the last patch of the expansion and they start making trinkets that are bonkers. Most of the M+ leaderboard uses trinkets from TEP, healers use the azshara weapon too.

So what you're saying is Alliance is overpowered in M+, and still losing to Horde? Hm.

[Baleful]

So what you're saying is Alliance is overpowered in M+, and still losing to Horde? Hm.

I don't have time to look it up but at the start of BFA there was a wowhead interview to Jdotb (known for M+ pushing) and he literally said that everyone goes horde because of PVE progression. I don't remember the exact words but it was something like "no racial can compensate for 2-3 ilvls worth of gear if you have better progression in horde".

[Mixxy]

I don't have time to look it up but at the start of BFA there was a wowhead interview to Jdotb (known for M+ pushing) and he literally said that everyone goes horde because of PVE progression. I don't remember the exact words but it was something like "no racial can compensate for 2-3 ilvls worth of gear if you have better progression in horde".

So even top M+ players think that Shadowmeld can't make enough of a difference to ultimately matter? Why are people complaining then?

[DotEleven]

Whether you think shadowmeld should be changed or not, the problem with comparing it to arcane torrent is that there are several big differences between the two.

Arcane torrent was very strong in pretty much all content, shadowmeld is far more niche and is almost useless in places like raids. Shadowmeld only really shines in one specific place, high end mythic+ with a very organised and practiced team who need access to the ability or something similar. Unlike arcane torrent, where even 1-2 people in a group having it was fantastic.

Only belf have access to arcane torrent, only nelf have access to shadowmeld. Anyone who has followed high end pve knows that horde have dominated it for years with the problem only getting worse as time goes on. A lot of even mid level mythic teams went horde during Legion because they knew they would have an easier time on team red. Even if racials were removed entirely, you would still have far more people interested in that content be horde because the player pool there is far larger. When the faction that is doing far better has unique access to something OP then it is more likely to be changed than if the underdog does. There is a reason that when all these MDI players log back onto live after a cup, they play horde.

This might go in the "niche" reasoning, but let's not forget that Arcane Torrent was also very strong with just one Blood Elf. You didn't need to stack it to make it useful. In order for Shadowmeld to be overpowered (according to the OP) you need to have it on everyone (or everyone who's not a rogue). It's actually kind of interesting if you think about it. It's either overpowered if taken by everyone or meh if a single person doesn't.

[JustaWarlock]

Fancy being so ignorant and thinking that the "mana recovery" from Arcane Torrent is in any way OP.

[Garymorilix]

A shared CD isn't a bad idea though. But that wouldn't stop a strong kiter from pulling everything to the far end of the instance, then Shadowmelding once the rest of the group is past where the packs should be.

Which is not a problem in my eye. Rogues/hunters/deathrun can already do that.

Stacking such an ability so you can use it mutliple times is the issue. If it has no shared CD, there is no punishment for it.
If there is a shared CD, it becomes a tactical decision, which makes it more interesting than 'everyone just be a Night Elf period'.

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This might go in the "niche" reasoning, but let's not forget that Arcane Torrent was also very strong with just one Blood Elf. You didn't need to stack it to make it useful. In order for Shadowmeld to be overpowered (according to the OP) you need to have it on everyone (or everyone who's not a rogue). It's actually kind of interesting if you think about it. It's either overpowered if taken by everyone or meh if a single person doesn't.

Being a Rogue doesn't matter, Shadowmeld and Vanish have separate CD's, so it's like an extra Vanish. That's the problem.