Contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids

[Aggrophobic]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

Becuase why bring a bad spec when you can bring a good one? You'll be carried by the classes and specs that can actually do the job well. But hey, if your guild likes that go for it.

[RainBoi]

But nobody is talking about increasing dps of the meta specs.

Really? Nobody? How about you read the quote in my post which was stating that the dps of meta specs were increasing? Lmao.

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where did I say it was hard?

all I said is that as a rogue you're at least doing something other than pressing judgement every 10 seconds :P

True, a rogue judgement is basically every 30-45 seconds

[hc7]

For things like MC and Phase 1/2 if your raid group/guild is a competent group of players who are experienced in PvE then it really doesnt matter...at all. You will kill all the bosses just fine. Its the guilds who are super serious that want to be world first when ZG, AQ40, Naxx, BWL etc drop that will likely be leaving hybrids behind except for certain fights where one or two may be beneficial. But even those guilds KNOW they could easily clear a lot of those raids while still having a ret pally, enhance shaman or oomkin(which actually isnt bad once you get to t2-t3 gear) in their raid. Also, the viability of specs that may "suck" right now in phase 1 can be completely different when it comes to BWL/Post t2 and t3 gear levels/patches. Shadow Priests begin to become decent and even good on some fights late progression, boomkins as well and Feral Tanks/DPS are actually a pretty great addition too if you have a good one youre raiding with, theyre quite good OTs and can easily switch to DPS and do some pretty decent damage. But again, they dont become more "viable" until later on, specs scale differently and tier bonus' can be quite important.

Anyone who is acting with some elitist attitude of it being stupid and "useless" to bring hybrids right now is just a moron whose parroting what they hear. Sure, a ret pally who is in full pre raid BiS and is excellent at DPSing and has played pally for a very long time may never reach the DPS of a similarly geared warrior who is playing his class perfectly, but plenty of people arent going to be savants at playing their class and DPSing in Vanilla(at least at first, and even then its just like regular WoW..there are people who are better than others) so that Pally may be relatively close to someone else in DPS who is maybe parsing at 75% of what they would be capable of. So sure youre technically leaving some DPS on the table but I doubt DPS will be an issue for any competent raid group right now, ill take the pally that is incredibly good at their class and is great with his BoPs, LoH, freedoms, and overall supporting the raid compared to a warrior who isnt as good of a player. If a raid/guild wont take any hybrids during early raids like this, its probably because theyre bad and they need as many of the absolute top tier specs as possible to clear shit.

Its really not that big of a deal today, we know the game and the fights infinitely better and min/max better(and that includes hybrids too) so ill take the player over the class in many situations, that would probably only start to really change when it gets to be BWL(although first first few bosses would be no prob), AQ40, Naxx etc. I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they see some great players playing the specs people will label as "useless" and terrible and actually doing pretty well. Hybrids played by good players in Classic are going to be better than most people who played them back in Vanilla.

[Nobleshield]

Besides that nothing in vanilla, not even Naxx, required all 40 people to be playing optimally. It's just "meta" and the mindset peddled by private servers over the years that hurt hybrids, and the ever insidious desire to min/max everything.

[shaunika123]

Really? Nobody? How about you read the quote in my post which was stating that the dps of meta specs were increasing? Lmao.

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True, a rogue judgement is basically every 30-45 seconds

a rogue casts a sinister strike every 4 seconds + a slice and dice every 38 seconds
and toss in an evisc when you're at 5 cp but dont have to slice yet.

and then sometimes you're adrushing which also increases your APM.

so let's say you have about 15 APM

a ret pala has what? 8?

[Jotaux]

ill see ya on logs i guess, may the greatest class win.

It’s like when you watch a tv show and there’s no continuity between the episodes. That’s what your posts are.

The logs have nothing to do with whether a Druid takes a debuff slot or not.

[Caperfin]

Bring who you want, Classic raiding was never ever difficult, the mechanics were piss easy, the tuning was not really that tight. The only thing that will be "difficult" is getting 40 people who will synergize well and understand what to do and whatnot. Seriously, don't believe the crap about "hybrid" tax. It isn't going to stop you from downing bosses and progressing through each raid. Yes, even Naxx.

amen brother amen. Tons of people in here aren't aware pserver and data gathering have been a thing for +14years.

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Doubt.
Don't take that as i'm trying to insult your choice to play, but a tanking shaman have way less tools to tank than a tanking warrior. Getting complimented is nice, i get complimented for conjuring water, dropping a portal, rooting a feared mob, opening lockboxes regularly, but i don't consider myself better than any other player just because of that.


Agree on that. There were always similar-minded people clumping up to do some quirky stuff. But it's very important to find the right people, instead of pushing your agenda into strangers

I believe I can speak on this topic :P I don't believe he was saying Shaman Tanks are better than Warrior tanks, trust me if there was a way I'd be on top of that. Anyone who pushes an agenda of shamans outperforming warriors is delusional. But don't push them out of the picture, they can tank more than people think.

[Spiel]

There was a very famous shaman tank who tanked almost every boss from Vanilla to WotLK (minus a few bosses here and there). The game isn't that hard and with the right support it's not a big deal.

A SHADOW priest tanked Onyxia with a raid only having PRIESTS in it.

People 4 manned Onyxia before AQ even came out.

People need to stop acting like you can't fill a raid full bad "meme" specs and do fine. You just have to have people who are smart enough to play past "DURR I PRESS 1 FUR FIRSTBOLT HERRR BURR MEERR!1!1!1!"

I find the people playing pure classes to be the absolute worse. I'm a warrior tank and have sooooooooooooo many mages casting Frost Nova and spamming Arcane Explosion ad infinitum because "I can." The people playing hybrid classes are usually the people who did a ton of research and are experimenting because the meta is boring.

I asked a frost mage last night why he started every fight with Frost Nova and asked if they could not do that because it makes repositioning mobs impossible. His response was, "because it does damage." Fuck me running so does meleeing with your staff. Why not do that and be less annoying?

Couldnt agree more. Ive had already one too many groups where the supposedly "big dick" dps are as confused and clumsy as my pet is when it finds a pebble in its way, and end up making such a mess that it would have been safer, and quicker, to let the mage run around the frost trap spamming arcane explosions.

[Caperfin]

However sadly I never saw a ret paladin perform well in raids ever. Their DPS were usually somewhere down there with the healers on damage meter, no matter how good gear they had.
Pretty sure even prot spec is way more useful in raids and groups than ret is in classic.

The number of people who where ret was rare let alone someone who knew what they were doing. I suspect it's going to be different in classic.

[Charge me Doctor]

I believe I can speak on this topic :P I don't believe he was saying Shaman Tanks are better than Warrior tanks, trust me if there was a way I'd be on top of that. Anyone who pushes an agenda of shamans outperforming warriors is delusional. But don't push them out of the picture, they can tank more than people think.

I do know that they can tank, but higher dungeons you go to - harder it is to justify taking a shaman tank, considering DPS having to hold back and applying extra pressure on healers manapool. Also downtime on drinking (as in healer won't be spending as much mana when warrior is tanking and shaman tank himself is also very mana-hungry).

As i already mentioned, shaman tank has way better pull aggro, but he'll struggle in situations when a warrior won't even sweat (damage being spread out by DPS, resulting in one mob running away towards a mage, and a warrior pulling another one with a lucky crit, because you shocked the wrong target, because no one bothers with threat meters these days, compared to a warrior who has taunt, sunder, shouts, provoking strike and AoE taunt)

[wysimdnwyg]

The toxic min/max mindset combined with parroting private server theory crafting "meta". There's zero reason other than being a tryhard to not let people ah what they want, since nothing is tuned for everyone playing optimally.

I would suspect that the majority of guilds will not be able to be as selective or picky as they may think when it comes to deciding who to pick to fill a 40 Man raid

My only problem with any of what you said here is that this is not wholly a problem caused by private server players. Higher end guilds in Vanilla had very few spots for non-preferred roles, and those were largely taken by a single Feral Druid and a single Shadow Priest specifically for the buffs they provided. I will admit that I was guilty of harboring the same prejudices against the non-preferred specs when I first started raiding, and it was only when our long Fury Warrior proved his worth as more than just being a good friend and an extra body in the raid that I started to open my eyes. We never did have any healing classes who performed any roles other than heal.

As for Classic, I suspect you are correct that the majority of raiding guilds will be accepting to any player, regardless of the specific class and role they prefer to play. (Obviously they'll be wanting to have ENOUGH tanks and healers.)

[Caperfin]

As i already mentioned, shaman tank has way better pull aggro, but he'll struggle in situations when a warrior won't even sweat (damage being spread out by DPS, resulting in one mob running away towards a mage, and a warrior pulling another one with a lucky crit, because you shocked the wrong target, because no one bothers with threat meters these days, compared to a warrior who has taunt, sunder, shouts, provoking strike and AoE taunt)

In no way am I trying to replace warriors or saying shamans are better. I don't think that claim can ever be made. By all means if you are looking to progress or in a casual-ish guild stick to warrior. Shaman Tank is merely a way to spice things up when things get bland and stuff is on farm.

[Daffan]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

Because nobody wants to waste more time than they have too.

[Alcsaar]

Why do you avoid hunters? I play a Hunter and I can pull my weight numerically, and have saved the ass of my group a few times by Distracting Shot a couple mobs off the tank when healer struggled and kiting them. Or putting my pet on a mob or two to help with tank healing.

Just because I don't want to suffer the heart ache of a hunter rolling need on a strength 2h

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

There's a really easy solution for this.

Make your own raid. Bring in whatever classes you want. You can be the one that chooses to take the Ret Paladin instead of the Fury/Arms Warrior.

[Lollis]

Even in BC there was a ROGUE who tanked Gruul in a 5man. One of the hardest hitting bosses in BC and he only had his Cheat Death go off one time the ENTIRE fight.

The rogue/s in question stacked agility and dodge gems so that they were basically unhittable because of the scaling being borked and practically being capless.

[cparle87]

Because people read things and believe whatever they read, and it sticks with them forever.

For example, take Druid tank. They are actually viable as off-tank in raids. The reason some people think they are garbage in Classic is because they were garbage in Vanilla...1.1 Vanilla specifically. By 1.12, Druid tanks were sitting in a pretty good position. They have their pros and cons (just like every tank), but are actually viable. However, people still talk about them being bad in Vanilla because everyone remembers 1.1 and always talked about Druid tanks from the 1.1 context...heck, the primary problem with Druid tanks was solved in 1.2 (drastically improved the scaling when in bear form).

And this isn't just for WoW...you see this nonsense all the time in the real world too.

Very good point. Things changed so much over the course of vanilla. The classic we're gettingm based on 1.12, is so completely different from launch vanilla they're practically different games. I actually saw a thread earlier with a survey about what version of Alterac Valley people preferred, with pre-1.08, 1.09-1.10, and later being three different options. Took a quick glance and it was practically 3 different battlegrounds.

[CostinR]

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

Speaking as both a raid leader and former guild leader all I can ask why should I allow Ret Paladins and Enhance Shamans?

A Feral Druid is welcome, as a tank mainly not as DPS, since they can handle much of the raid content while currently doing insane threat compared to Warrior tanks though we'll see how long that lasts and even then I'd only take exactly one Feral druid.

But a Ret or Enhance will no offer no benefit. They will be a drain on a raid and a waste of gear. Am I to insult my warriors by passing over good two handers for the sake of people that are for all intents and purposes being carried in the raid? Am I to ask 38 other people to carry that Ret and Enhance shaman?

No I don't think so.

Also do not underestimate the raid difficulty: Raids being taken down because a bunch of people min maxed their gear, builds and raid setups by stacking them with warrior, rogues and mages doesn't make the raids easy. MC and Onyxia are by far the easiest raids in vanilla. People are going to be in for a rude awakening come BWL and ZG.

EDIT: Before anyone mentions Esfand. He gets away with it because he's the GM of his guild, and he's a prick for using that position to play as ret...but he's also the GM of his guild and the amount of effort he puts in to run a guild allow him to be a prick like that.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

We have a moonkin in our guild, we've given him first prio on sulfuras. Why? Because of the memes and the fact that Sulfuras is pretty useless itself since all warriors want 1handers.
PvP? Yeah ok, but that's on your time- not the guilds time. Classic is something our guild does on the side, for fun, for the laid back gamestyle. Will we pvp? Yeah some of us will, but not seriously. If you want to pvp seriously then you're even more screwed on class balance than you are in PvE.

[Charge me Doctor]

In no way am I trying to replace warriors or saying shamans are better. I don't think that claim can ever be made. By all means if you are looking to progress or in a casual-ish guild stick to warrior. Shaman Tank is merely a way to spice things up when things get bland and stuff is on farm.

Yeah, that's kinda what i mean, it's doable, but in a sense of doing it for sake of doing it, but some people think that they can spam "shaman tank LFG UBRS" and expect something else but "can you heal tho?" in response.