Remember Lady Liadrin?

[Super Dickmann]

If Liadrin were actually delusional and killing Red Cross doctors while bragging about how darkness cannot abide within the Light, she'd actually gain one more character trait rather than her current zero and perhaps make for an interesting Ophelia-like figure.

But that's not reality. In reality she was one of two or maybe even three questgivers who can narrate that quest alongside Usha and Cromush. The healer is an elite monk who can break people's spines with her bare hands and heals soldiers to full with magic powers making her just as standard a military target as any other priests we kill by the truckload in just about every zone. And Liadrin is still the most boring woman alive.

[Soon-TM]

It isn't ...exactly like M'uru. M'uru was a living being imprisoned and having his life force siphoned. The Sunwell was made from his remains and is a limitless fountain of holy and arcane energy. It's a lifeless thing now. Its a lot less vampiristic than it used to be, but there is still nothing is stopping the Blood Elves from using the Sunwell for evil, just like M'uru. They don't draw their power from faith. Even Blood Elf Warlocks can have the golden eyes that comes from using the Sunwell's holy energy.

That's the whole thing, the Light can be legitimately used for evil reasons, as long as the one wielding it thinks it's a righteous cause. Scarlet Crusade paladins from early WoW are the best example - they didn't even have a Sunwell. As for BE warlocks/spriests it's just an issue of gameplay mechanics trumping lore, as it is often the case in WoW.

[Stelio Kontos]

You can always tell the people with minimal historical education.

They're the ones who think MORE civilians died during warfare before modern warfare and the advent of total war.

[Ghostile]

Murdering an enemy healer, while cruel, may be necessary in times of war. My main problem with Liadrin in BFA is that she accepts Sylvanas as her leader, and is willing to send her Paladins into war against the Night Elves FOR NO REASON but to snuff out life and hope. All in the name of an undead maniac who hates anything that is good and pure.

I have absolutely no idea how Blizzard ever thought this kind of "faction conflict" would make any sense for classes like Paladin or Druid (and to a lesser extend: Shaman) on the Horde side...but apparently that was just not important enough as the entre War of Thorns thing was never meant to be more than a marketing hype to sell the box to Horde fanboys and then never follow it up with anything after that.

Blood Elves never were a part of the Horde to begin with. And Blood Knights, while a cool concept, were removed at the end of TBC in favour of standard Paladins of the Light - which do not befit Blood Elves at all. So Liadrin has always been a great misfit in any and all regards for me. But now, as a Paladin of the Holy Light fighting under the command of a rotting corpse....no, that is as low as it can get.

Being a demon hunter on the Horde makes me sad.

"hey remember all that shit that is still threathetening azeroth? Nah lets go kill some of the people we used to work together with to fight it"

[UnluckyAmateur]

What is exactly the good deal they are getting from siding with Sylvie? Besides, if you haven't noticed, the "limp wristed" Lor'themar is right there on the front line against Lady Fishqueen, along with Jaina.

Furthermore, since we're discussing Liadrin (and paladin stuff by extension), there would be no contradiction in her wielding legit Light powers in service of Sylvanas - as long as she's convinced that it's the right way.

By "good deal" I mean jumping on the table and holding their dress up screaming in fear. They did the same shit with Garrosh and they're doing the same thing with Sylvanas. They're too afraid of the war chief to actually rebel like Tauren, Trolls and even Orcs do. INSTEAD they wait for the rebellion to start and then they jump in like "HEY GUYS, WE WERE WITH YOU THE WHOLE TIME, LOL".

Also they blatantly ignore the fact that Sylvanas is actively matching arthas's trail of destruction and they're cool with it because "fuck nelves despite our shared history". I guess they can only empathize with other junkies

[Jester Joe]

They changed that before live. It’s an orc female now. Liadrin doesn’t do that one anymore.

They did not change it before it went live.
It was there when I played Horde even, and I never PTR test stuff.

Maybe it's changed now, or maybe it's random, but it was 100% there on live, it's specifically the Mistweaver in Tiragarde Sound.

[Super Dickmann]

Liadrin does not have the same excuse tbh. Yes she did go through the same zombie apocalypse but high elven society was not completely dismantled like with Lordaeron society, she has had a long time to interact with non-omnicidal zombies through the Forsaken and her culture has largely recovered. So what exact darkness is she screaming about when she is killing Turalyon and his Lightforged Draenei troops in Arathi?

If Liadrin were still her TBC incarnation obsessed with one-upping paladins to show they're the true masters of the Light this conflict would make leagues more sense, and she'd also be more interesting. But as those Blood Knights went the way of the dodo and she's essentially just a more boring version of Turalyon with tits, I'm hard-pressed to understand why him being a draeneiaboo is wrong but her being one is good.

If I was to make a steelman I'd say she's giving him ashit for tolerating void elves. If so, it'd be cooler if she insulted his wife but that might risk giving her a discernable character trait besides being race-swapped human paladin #81915.

[BB8]

All religious leaders murder in the name of their god(dess).

[Mixxy]

Doesn't Liadrin, in a conversation with Thalyssra, basically just lie about every single thing that the Night Elves, and the High/Blood Elves, have done since Suramar walled itself off?

Saying shit like "The Night Elves haven't lifted a finger to defend the world these past centuries and just hid in their homes while my people were a major part of every conflict ever!" when literally the exact opposite of that is true?

[Aleksej89]

BFA is a crime by itself so i am not surprised they butcher the lore along with the characters, classes, the gameplay, the player development mechanics and everything else.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm all for Blood Knight Liadrin but Blood Knight Liadrin would never tell us how "Darkness cannot abide within the Light". She did not really believe in the Light. Which really shows how fucking EMO she was; every character we've seen describe channeling the Light suggests it is a transcedental experience that makes you feel everything more vibrant and that excites positive affect yet the Blood Knights somehow managed to channel the Light and get more broody instead. Guess M'uru was half void already (in my headcanon Blood Knights would be a separate class channeling the Twilight instead; the half Light/half Void concept Benedictus was rocking; P.S. Benedictus was a far better Blood Knight than Liadrin can ever hope to be).

The last part is true, especially since he didn't rely on a masochistic naaru to give him the Light out of pity, but just had such huge testicular fortitude (or maybe a certain kind of potential) to just force the Light to be on his side while he was destroying the world. Praise be.

As for the Blood Knights and the Light, that's explained in that blood elf tie in novel that I've only seen in German. Basically, while they had M'uru teid up the feeling of the Light was traumatic and tested them with visions of the shit they went through during the Scourge Invasion, like for one of them it was the sound of broken glass as zombies went into his home and so forth. Hence why the original quests tell you that you can't be weak-willed and still be a Blood Knight.

[Zuben]

It's true Liadrin's current pro-Horde ways are a bit too pro considering how she's been in the past (same with Rokhan and Eitrigg in Arathi Warfront). Having said that I much prefer it. Her preachy Alliance-paladin ways were annoying, since blood elf paladin philosophy was completely different when they were introduced into the game. Light was a practical source of power for them instead of something to revere. They gained it first by forcibly draining it, then naturally having it due to their connection to the Sunwell; they don't have to be faithful like conventional paladins do. That's why I hated Liadrin after TBC, as she essentially rewinded the Blood Knights from unique and interesting to your typical Alliance-flavoured paladins. It didn't help that in that state she was still a leader figure in Silvermoon's military.

So while I agree her fierce anti-Alliance attitude in Arathi is out of character, I prefer it to how she's been. A Horde officer, dedicated to Horde matters. Someone in a position of leadership should be concerned with that first, especially in a time of war.

As for the quest where she sends you to kill a healer, don't think about it too much. World quests are lazily written fluff to fill the players' schedule. All in all that quests is more about a Horde officer sending Horde champions to kill a tactical enemy target rather than Liadrin doing something relevantly horrible.

[Serenais]

This. All these human paladin RP'ers are funny with this "b-b-b-but muh wmds adn teh civvies omg /wrists" while at the same time being totally OK with following a retarded king because that's what is the proper thing to do in a monarchy... and an absolute one on top

Pretty much every organisation even remotely close to a government in WoW is a non-democratic one; the only verifiable exception are the gnomes (we've even seen a gnomish election campaign in the game once). That comes with the fantasy territory, and is considered one of the acceptable breaks from reality (elective and constitutional monarchies are/were a thing for several milenia; and to bring it to extreme, Rome used to elect, among other things, even the office of the high priest; therefore democratic institutions of one form or another should be more common, if the portrayal was to be more faithful to medieval era). I honestly doubt we would want the playerbase to go through an ingame election cycle every few years to decide leaders of factions, and I'm pretty sure that if Blizzard implemented that, the voter participation would be so low, it would be below acceptable limits of any democratic country existing nowadays.
However, when it comes to participation in a war, we need to keep in mind that WoW does NOT portray middle ages - it's more steam punk than classical medievial fantasy (the Alliance has steamships, flying ships, steam tanks, for starters; the goblin-designed Iron-Horde-employed Iron stars are another example); if we REALLY tried to put the era somewhere, the society fits somewhere in the 19th century (for example, Boralus looks more like a city from Victorian England far more than one befitting an Arthurian legend, where Warcraft kind of started). By then, there were certain rules of war observed for quite some time already (first known trial for war crimes happened in 1474), and even Sun Tzu considers "仁" - generaly considered to mean "benevolence" or "humanity" - as one of the commander's virtues and generally stresses that the commander is directly or indirectly responnsible for the effects of war on the populace throughout his Art of War (among other things, obviously). Sun Tzu lived in 5th/6th century BC (traditionally stated to have lived between 544 and 496 BC).
Given all those, the concept of "war had no rules until Geneva Accords" is at best a misinterpretation. One thing you are correct about - massacres of civilian populations were not uncommon during warfare (heck, they happen up until these days - for example, the 1995 Srebrenica Massacre), but they were almost never lauded as something good. Scipio Africanus is remembered as a great tactician for his victories against Carthage in the Second Punic War; he could have sacked Carthage after the Battle of Zama, but he did not.
No Roman commander is considered laudable for their actions in the Third Punic War.
On top of that, one has to keep in mind that WoW might be a fantasy game from "not modern times", but it is a product for modern audience. I can't speak for others in this, but in my personal case, there are limits past which I consider a portrayal, while accurate, to be distasteful or outright disgusting. One thing is to know that, indeed, massacres and/or selling of conquered civilian populations into slavery was commonplace in ancient times to medievial era; the other is to partake in said portrayal. I play the game to have fun. If I wanted to see an acurate portrayal of a war crime, I would watch Schindler's List or Shaking Hands With The Devil again.

Finally, I can quote quite common dislike of the Dalaran purge by players of both factions.
We can debate whether Jaina was right to remove the Sunreavers from Dalaran.
We can also state examples of methods employed that were less than acceptable.
I would like to ask: Do you find Dalaran purge as a good thing?

[Aeula]

And that’s a problem because...? Warcraft’s healers can miraculously repair near-fatal wounds and immediately send the soldier back out to fight. Getting wounded doesn’t take a soldier out of the battle in this universe.

Also, the person who assigns that task to you is random, I’ve had it given to me by Crommush and Usha in the past.

It’s nice to see Liadrin being less of a Human Paladin for once.

[Aphrel]

What's wrong with that? The healer would heal alliance that would then go on to kill horde.

You do know what civillian means dont you?

[LazarusLong]

Lady Liadrin debuted siphoning the life force from a Naaru to steal it's power. Sure, they later hand-waved it by saying the Naaru allowed it, but that doesn't change the fact that, in her own mind, torturing a sentient creature to increase her own power was an acceptable thing to do.

If anything, the generic Paladin she became after the Sunwell patch was the out of character moment, and murdering an innocent healer is the most Liadrin thing she's done since.

You did not read the Blood of Highborne.


Most of the commenters here did not it seems.

[faithbane]

You are partially true, though it is generally considered a war crime to target civilian hospitals. There would be a difference to me if this was a military hospital or outpost, but this is one that specifically existed for treating civilians. And she is very specifically supposed to be a follower of the -Light-, which, as a paladin main I'm pretty sure is morally opposed to murdering innocents.

Why are you comparing a fantasy rpg setting to 20th century human moral standards? Just a couple hundred years ago, knights in Europe would run "raids" into enemy border towns to loot and rape.. oh and they would maim (cut an arm or a leg) of random civilians they happen to run into, just to make a burden on the local lord economically and this is from more "civilized" recent times.

[Artelia]

I liked her better in BC before she became just a generic paladin.

This.

I like her more now because this "I LOVE LIGHT AND GOOD!" was boring Liadrin. Generic and totally useless for story.

And even now i like her as Anti-Alliance character because atleast Blood Elves has some dignity since Lother'mar is another rebel traitor.

[Aucald]

Doesn't Liadrin, in a conversation with Thalyssra, basically just lie about every single thing that the Night Elves, and the High/Blood Elves, have done since Suramar walled itself off?

Saying shit like "The Night Elves haven't lifted a finger to defend the world these past centuries and just hid in their homes while my people were a major part of every conflict ever!" when literally the exact opposite of that is true?

As already established, bitch is unhinged.

An excellent political strategy when your goal is to attempt to sell your culture and your aid to a powerful foreign nation in an attempt to secure an alliance with them. Lionize the Sin'dorei, demonize the modern Kaldorei, and let the subject decide for themselves who is better to ally with.

[Mehrunes]

I have a slight recollection of a character of that name, yes. But she devolved into a hundredth copy of the cardboard cutout of the human Paladin and became indistinguishable from them so I wouldn't be able to pick her out from a crowd of Paladins.

Wow, the person who willing tortured a naaru to empower her own forces and had no problem having shady blood magic golems on her side in Suramar isn't an upstanding and morally sound person? HoW OuT oF ChaRaCter.

What's shady about using anima again?

Murdering an enemy healer, while cruel, may be necessary in times of war. My main problem with Liadrin in BFA is that she accepts Sylvanas as her leader, and is willing to send her Paladins into war against the Night Elves FOR NO REASON but to snuff out life and hope. All in the name of an undead maniac who hates anything that is good and pure.

Sylvanas hates anything that's a threat. Alliance is utterly unhinged as shown by them starting conflict during an ongoing apocalypse on two different occasions. Alliance is less about hope and more about being a rabid dog. And that rabid dogs are put down shouldn't surprise anyone. Nor is it NO REASON.