The myths about Classic that have fallen apart

[Yattz]

I agree 100% dood - At least im not the only one that isn't on the Classic train - I hate the fact that it even exists....
Bad quest design, shitty graphics, boring 'endgame' apart from raiding - After my oldie friends asked me I was like "Why tf would I go back to that hellhole?!"
All coming from someone that started in Vanilla so I aint talking in ignorance.

[Polybius]

I'm only having fun when it's with friends. It's for good laughs and tourism mode, "Hey this event took place here!"

I don't need to make friends, and I disagree with #4. Players were encouraged to be more altruistic, whether or not it was out of selfishness it didn't matter since toxic players had to adapt or be blacklisted. However, Classic can't recreate what once was especially since the game is attracting older, nostalgic players. You saw a burst of players helping each other, but they've since moved on with their friends. The same is true for any video game nowadays, unless you're having trouble finding potential friends.

[rohoz]

I'm only having fun when it's with friends. It's for good laughs and tourism mode, "Hey this event took place here!"

I don't need to make friends, and I disagree with #4. Players were encouraged to be more altruistic, whether or not it was out of selfishness it didn't matter since toxic players had to adapt or be blacklisted. However, Classic can't recreate what once was especially since the game is attracting older, nostalgic players. You saw a burst of players helping each other, but they've since moved on with their friends.

blacklists never happened. I played on one of the most stuck up role-playing servers and on one of the most hardcore pvp servers and no, blacklists were a pserver thing if anything.

[Polybius]

blacklists never happened. I played on one of the most stuck up role-playing servers and on one of the most hardcore pvp servers and no, blacklists were a pserver thing if anything.

Well, they happened on my servers. If a player or a guild was notorious for any antisocial behavior they weren't invited to the fun. Toxic players gravitated towards each other, so they had the comfort of each other's spite. But they were largely ignored by the rest of players or guilds. That said, wrongful blacklisting also happened where one player was innocent but a guild ruined their reputation and spread gossip to other guilds.

[rohoz]

Well, they happened on my servers. If a player or a guild was notorious for any antisocial behavior they weren't invited to the fun. Toxic players gravitated towards each other, so they had the comfort of each other's spite. But they were largely ignored by the rest of players or guilds. That said, wrongful blacklisting also happened where one player was innocent but a guild ruined their reputation and spread gossip to other guilds.

Yeah I played on servers without people with social disorders. as toxic and drama filled they were, the shortbus heroes were non-exixtent

[Coldfrostzero]

Well, that was what they were changed to, yes. But, originally, all tier gear was like the AQ tier gear. This was when all MC bosses could drop both Tier 1 and Tier 2, granted, i don't know Ragnaros' loot table, because this is the patch that, i believe, made him killable.

Did you actually play vanilla or are you just talking out of your ass?

What they were before is irrelevant to what they currently are. There is no tier gear for Enhancement shamans and the Elemental gear is sketchy at best. This is basically true for all hybrids as itemization was so incredibly awkward that they had to say, "nope we're just going to make each class great at something."

Again, if they went the Classic+ route with new tier and content, Blizzard could add in gear that works for every spec. It doesn't have to have mind-blowing set bonuses or effects, but at least be good enough to make it attractive to those specs. The Lightning Shield trinket out of ZG is absolute garbage, but it has a set bonus aimed at Elemental.

If they did another tier with higher item levels, or another half tier, they could slowly add more balanced stats to the gear. That, or add in spec specific tier like they did in BC. It gave some wiggle room at least to let the non traditional specs shine or not be completely broken.

[s0ul]

You're wrong in every one of those points except the raid part because literally no one credible argued that raids were going to be difficult. It wasn't even an argument to begin with lmao

[Noxina]

WHAT? so you ignore what Blizzards WoW devoloper said who wanted a more casual RPG then everquest?

Yes, Vanilla was extremely casual compared to that times MMORPGs. Classic however is far from casual compared to Retail WoW.

[Coldfrostzero]

I don't think i have ever claimed to have played in vanilla. I started at the onset of BC. But why does that matter?

And i disagree that only the here and now matters. I believe there is a lot to learn from the past.

You were arguing that tier gear was available and usable by all specs before the change. That's not only false, but it also doesn't matter if the original T1 gear had every stat or not on it. They changed the tier gear and currently the only thing that can drop is what drops. I used a shaman as an example because they literally have no tier gear that helps Enhance out at all. They can get +AP mail offset items or leather and that's it.

You're making no sense. If they don't add new content, then literally the only thing that matters is what can drop. Blizzard already "learned from the past" with BC and so on. This would be going that same route without diverging into what the game is today.

[rohoz]

So, The Ten Storms set had, collectively, 25 agility, 69 strength, 45 to nature, 30 to frost, 30 to fire. Those aren't healer stats.

And i wrote a detailed post on how i believe the rush on designing Molten Core led to the healerization of all hybrid classes. I think there is a lot to learn from the past that Blizzard hasn't learned from. The release of the xpac confirms this. They gave up on their goal of class first, spec second, when they gave different sets of gear to different specs.

In the event of re-balancing classes, i hope Bilzzard can look to the past and see that it was Molten Core that failed them, and not the idea of true hybrids.

hybrids post mop launch are the most "hybrid" they've ever been

[rohoz]

I never played post-MoP launch WoW. Can you elaborate?

I can. I won't
you have a sub, go play.

[rohoz]

So, i will take that as it wasn't. It still stands that early vanilla was the best time for hybrids in the history of WoW.

You can take it as whatever you want it to be. But it's pretty apparent that noone on the classic board that says anything about retail knows a fucking thing. Which you, of course, just displayed it for everyone to see.

Word of advice, if you don't know anything, it's safe to be quiet.

[tmamass]

Yes, Vanilla was extremely casual compared to that times MMORPGs. Classic however is far from casual compared to Retail WoW.

roflmao those fanbois and their glasses. vanilla is way more casual then retail. why do you think it takes you so long to get to 60? cause there is nothing at max level....

[greenn]

classic is way more casual than retail... i don't understand how anyone can think otherwise.


retail is more alt friendly in regards to 1-120 vs classic 1-60. 1-120 on retail for a fresh account with no wod or bfa flying, no gold for heirlooms, etc, does take pretty close to the ~4-5 days that 1-60 takes in classic.

but there is nothing to do at 60.


MC/ony have no gear requirements, so if you hit 60 and did most of your dungeon quests and quests in 50+ zones, and maybe spend a small amount of gold on BoEs that will be all you need.

mc takes a whole 4 hours to clear with a pug and it takes longer to get to ony as alliance than it does to clear the place. there are no raid mechanics in most of MC, and ony has about 2 simple mechanics. it takes one afternoon to get attuned to onyxia.


all of the raids beyond tier 1 are relatively simple compared to any raid released since wotlk.


it is not overly difficult to hit 60 and already have enough gold to buy epic mount. that is the only gold sink that really exist. there are no stupid good BoE epics to craft or buy, consumables are not required, either.

there is not much theory crafting in terms of dps and classic has the simplest rotation out of any expansions.


its a simple game but there is nothing wrong with that.

[Coldfrostzero]

So, The Ten Storms set had, collectively, 25 agility, 69 strength, 45 to nature, 30 to frost, 30 to fire. Those aren't healer stats.

And i wrote a detailed post on how i believe the rush on designing Molten Core led to the healerization of all hybrid classes. I think there is a lot to learn from the past that Blizzard hasn't learned from. The release of the xpac confirms this. They gave up on their goal of class first, spec second, when they gave different sets of gear to different specs.

In the event of re-balancing classes, i hope Bilzzard can look to the past and see that it was Molten Core that failed them, and not the idea of true hybrids.

Again, it doesn't matter what it had. It matters what it has.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying they should redo the gear to the old stats? Add in another tier? What do you even mean learn what they haven't? BC was literally taking hybrids and giving them gear and their own tier to function. Something they didn't do in Vanilla. The number one thing said from Vanilla to WotLK was, "if you had absolutely 0 talents invested in any class that could heal, you could still heal in the right gear." There was even the fight as a Paladin where you had to spec into Prot to heal to avoid the boss mechanics. That seems pretty class>spec until they got to Cata and said they wanted you to play the role you wanted to play and be good at it. Even since then, they've added a lot of talents that let you blur the line once in a while, especially druid.

I don't think the classes themselves need much balance. 1.12 wasn't perfect as far as letting you play the way you wanted, but it wasn't far off from the BC model. I think with an T3.5 or T4 added, they could expand and allow gear with different options or set bonuses that help fix some issues. Class specific trinkets even work really well to help with missing puzzle pieces.

[Coldfrostzero]

You are arguing that, if any changes were to come into play, they should go the BC route. That is, they should give all hybrid classes multiple tier gear. I personally don't like this model. It really separates the specs in a class. A mage may always be a mage, but a Holy paladin and a Retribution paladin are effectively two different classes. Their respective playstyles are that different.

I am arguing that they go back to what they originally had, pre1.4. This way, a druid will always be a druid, regardless of his spec.

The problem with that model is then they are ineffective at any role they choose. The whole reason they changed the gear was twofold: hybrids were made good at healing above their other specs and they were collecting off-pieces since they had the right itemization. The latter is the majority of the problem.

Item level budgets constrain how items distribute stats. In Vanilla, the item levels from tier 1 to tier 3 only changed by about ~40 (ignoring legendaries). Today, they go up by like 300 over the course of an expansion (and like 100 a tier!).

With how gear worked in Vanilla, as a ret paladin you would end up wanting an offset chest piece that has stats like 35 strength 10 stamina, the equivalent for a paladin tier would be like 15 strength, 14 intellect, 15 stamina. If I am trying to maximize my damage, I would always choose the 35 strength since Seal of Command damage is increased by attack power and gains nothing from intellect other than maybe another judgment/seal off it. The set bonus would almost exclusively help the Holy spec and have straight items that were only good for Holy. So I wouldn't even get my 8 set because the off set item is ideal for my spec and the set piece isn't. That's why they went the route they went in BC. Paladin tank gear had a decent spread of stats, but also had set bonuses specifically tailored to their spec. You can't do that in a 1 set of tier per class set.

[Coldfrostzero]

If you want damage paladins to lose their ability to take damage and heal, then, of course, the BC model would be the way to go. It's your opinion and you have that right.

My personal preference is that hybrids can spread their usefulness during the actual encounter. This is why i prefer the early vanilla route. And, i think i am successful in showing that it wasn't the gear that failed them, it was Molten Core. I can show you that reasoning (it was on another thread) if you so wish.

You don't lose those abilities if gear is set up towards a spec. As a ret paladin in BC I was able to heal quite decently when I needed to. Gear still has a little bit of hybridization in the BC model as far as having some added intellect. The gear was made a lot more streamlined. Ret and Prot was heavy strength with a medium amount of intellect and stamina. Holy was all intellect and stamina, however their seals and such were buffed by spell damage since coefficients were changed.

It wasn't gear or Molten Core at all. It was player perception and developers who didn't want things a certain way. You would have had to play and be on the forums for patch after patch to understand it better.

When you're playing a hybrid, your spell coefficients are just terribly bad. Looking at Ret paladins, you'd want strength to increase your white hit damage/seal of command, but wanted spell power to increase seal damage and judgment. You didn't really want more intellect because all it did was make your mana pool bigger and offered nothing else in your role.

Again, item level budget doesn't allow for you to be good at anything in vanilla if it was split into an amalgamation of all specs. People already don't want to bring hybrids that aren't there to heal. So let's make them worse at healing and if they were to get in as a DPS or tank by some magical reasoning...let's make them worse at that? Do you want hybrids to have no place at all in the game?

[Dch48]

I got a Tauren Druid to 30 in Classic. Then I decided to make a brand new one in Retail to see how different it would be. The difference is night and day. A new Tauren in retail is so much more fun to play. The quests are different (and much better), Mulgore is greatly improved, drop rates are astronomically better, and you're not dying every 3 minutes and having to run halfway across the zone because there's only one graveyard. You get a 30% speed increase at level 8 from Cat Form, you get travel Form at like 16 which is 40% and, you can get a mount at 20 and it doesn't cost 100 gold. How can anyone say that Classic is better? The retail game is greatly improved over it. A Balance Druid at level 15 vastly outperforms one in Classic.

Another thing, the retail game still contains the Ahab Wheathoof NPC and his quest that was designed by 10 year old Ezra "Ephoenix" Chatterton before he tragically died at age 12. It's not in Classic and it should be. It wouldn't hurt the Classic experience one iota to have it included. It's exclusion is one of the worst things about Classic. Yes, it wasn't in the game during the Classic period but so what? It should be put in.

[Estravolt]

I got a Tauren Druid to 30 in Classic. Then I decided to make a brand new one in Retail to see how different it would be. The difference is night and day. A new Tauren in retail is so much more fun to play. The quests are different (and much better), Mulgore is greatly improved, drop rates are astronomically better, and you're not dying every 3 minutes and having to run halfway across the zone because there's only one graveyard. You get a 30% speed increase at level 8 from Cat Form, you get travel Form at like 16 which is 40% and, you can get a mount at 20 and it doesn't cost 100 gold. How can anyone say that Classic is better? The retail game is greatly improved over it. A Balance Druid at level 15 vastly outperforms one in Classic.

Something something REEEEE REEEEEE something along the lines "enjoy easymode" more REEEEEEEE REEEEEEEEE and so on.

[TheRevenantHero]

Something something REEEEE REEEEEE something along the lines "enjoy easymode" more REEEEEEEE REEEEEEEEE and so on.

It's interesting that you decided to post an untranslated comment from someone in the Classic crowd.