Mega-Thread: Impeachment Proceedings & Inquiry of Trump

[Breccia]

But I think you're making the mistake of assuming the evidence has already accused.

Um...if I'm reading this correctly, yes, the evidence has accused? I mean, the testimony and documents have said "Trump did it and he did so for personal gain on purpose". That's pretty "accused".

The American legal system does not function like that.

This is still not a criminal proceeding. Please stop insisting it is, that's factually false.

[omerome]

I'm not arguing that the process hasn't already happened. But I think you're making the mistake of assuming the evidence has already declared the accused guilty. The American legal system does not function like that. Evidence is gathered, analyzed, and presented; witnesses are summoned to testify, examined, and cross-examined; then deliberation happens. Even if the murderer was on site with a bloody knife in his hands, he will still receive a fair trial where evidence is gathered, analyzed, and presented; witnesses are summoned to testify, to be examined, and cross examined; the deliberation happens.

What I am arguing is that if anyone has already declared Trump guilty, they have robbed him of his rights as a US citizen. Arguing that the GOP is immoral or the democrats are angry tyrants is a disconcerting revelation of a lack of even a desire to see the truth come out on a fair, unbiased, objective trial stage.

The resident himself said there was no quid pro quo, and someone who was directly involved with this [Mulvaney] said, there was and we should "get over it". Then we heard hearing from witnesses who were on the call who would conclude that bribery was involved. So yes, he is guilty.

If someone says they didn't rob a bank, then one of his bank robbing buddies said, "yes you did", and others who were listening on their cell phones said, "yes he did". I think it will be hard to believe the first guy. ESPECIALLY when he tries to do the same thing with another bank [China] on national television.

[vincink]

I'm allowed to say Trump is guilty, and so are you. We are not robbing him of any rights. First off, We're not the fucking government. Secondly, one is permitted in this country to form opinions based on evidence... which people like me have.

He's guilty as hell, and a corrupt piece of shit.

I agree. He is a corrupt and immoral president. And yes, you and I have the right to say it, so too, do the politicians. But the legal experts involved MUST not let that play into their assessment. Mr. Turley was arguing yesterday for a strict adherence to a deliberate legal proceeding that is 100% free of political motive. Let the evidence speak for itself; if it is clear that the president had personal benefit intent when he made the call and did what he did, then let the evidence declare that. He cannot be declared guilty just because you and I hold such a low opinion of him. That is the fulcrum of a fair legal system.

[Somewhatconcerned]

I never said the second part as trends show we’re likely going to see massive turnout in 2020. That’s not good for Drumpf.

You're right, there will be massive turnout but not the outcome you're looking for. Especially when people look and see the best the Dems can offer are the likes of Warren, Sanders, et al.

[omerome]

You're right, there will be massive turnout but not the outcome you're looking for. Especially when people look and see the best the Dems can offer are the likes of Warren, Sanders, et al.

Well, the best the Republicans offered was Trump and look at where it got us. A bag of flaming garbage would be better than him, because while it stinks, it's far easier to clean up. And the damage it does is minimal.

[Breccia]

Let the evidence speak for itself

I agree. Team Trump can testify whenever they want.

If they don't, that's obstruction. That evidence will speak for itself, too.

However:

That is the fulcrum of a fair legal system.

I've asked you nicely. Twice. You are now intentionally spreading factually false information.

[vincink]

I agree. Team Trump can testify whenever they want.

If they don't, that's obstruction. That evidence will speak for itself, too.

What does that have to do with our conversation?

However:



I've asked you nicely. Twice. You are now intentionally spreading factually false information.

What have you asked?

[Endus]

I'm not arguing that the process hasn't already happened. But I think you're making the mistake of assuming the evidence has already declared the accused guilty. The American legal system does not function like that. Evidence is gathered, analyzed, and presented; witnesses are summoned to testify, examined, and cross-examined; then deliberation happens. Even if the murderer was on site with a bloody knife in his hands, he will still receive a fair trial where evidence is gathered, analyzed, and presented; witnesses are summoned to testify, to be examined, and cross examined; the deliberation happens.

What I am arguing is that if anyone has already declared Trump guilty, they have robbed him of his rights as a US citizen. Arguing that the GOP is immoral or the democrats are angry tyrants is a disconcerting revelation of a lack of even a desire to see the truth come out on a fair, unbiased, objective trial stage.

And this is manipulative horse shit. You are functionally lying.

1> This is not the American legal system. The courts are not involved at all at this point, and only tangentially by way of Justice Roberts in the case of a Senate impeachment. That Senate procedure is not a trial, and does not make any criminal charges.

2> Outside of a judge declaring someone guilty in a sentencing, without giving them a trial, your "rights" aren't in play at all. The "court" of public opinion, and anyone outside of the sitting judge on a given case, is perfectly free to declare anyone "guilty" of any supposed crime they want to. There's potential for civil defamation infringements there, but all you need to show is that your opinion is not unreasonable to avoid legal consequences. And pointing at the evidence against Trump, that bar is set. It was set years ago. Trying to shut down people "declaring" Trump's guilt is, itself, the actual attack on people's rights. Specifically, freedom of speech.

[vincink]

And this is manipulative horse shit. You are functionally lying.

1> This is not the American legal system. The courts are not involved at all at this point, and only tangentially by way of Justice Roberts in the case of a Senate impeachment. That Senate procedure is not a trial, and does not make any criminal charges.

Are you saying that Trump is not a U.S. citizen? Are you saying the rights afforded to American citizens are not afforded to him? Are you saying the single foundation upon which the American legal system is built is something other than the Constitution? These are not rhetorical questions. I'd like you to answer each of them, please.

2> Outside of a judge declaring someone guilty in a sentencing, without giving them a trial, your "rights" aren't in play at all. The "court" of public opinion, and anyone outside of the sitting judge on a given case, is perfectly free to declare anyone "guilty" of any supposed crime they want to. There's potential for civil defamation infringements there, but all you need to show is that your opinion is not unreasonable to avoid legal consequences. And pointing at the evidence against Trump, that bar is set. It was set years ago. Trying to shut down people "declaring" Trump's guilt is, itself, the actual attack on people's rights. Specifically, freedom of speech.

Are you arguing that the government should forego any evidentiary presentation, all prosecution, and all defense and simply remove Trump from office?

[Machismo]

I agree. He is a corrupt and immoral president. And yes, you and I have the right to say it, so too, do the politicians. But the legal experts involved MUST not let that play into their assessment. Mr. Turley was arguing yesterday for a strict adherence to a deliberate legal proceeding that is 100% free of political motive. Let the evidence speak for itself; if it is clear that the president had personal benefit intent when he made the call and did what he did, then let the evidence declare that. He cannot be declared guilty just because you and I hold such a low opinion of him. That is the fulcrum of a fair legal system.

Of course they can say it, so long as the evidence backs up what they say.

They are not his jurors, they are not the judge in his trial.

In reality, they are little more than pundits, stating their opinions.

[Skroe]

I just came in to check if you really still think Trump is getting Peachmints? This thread is now half the size of Muhh Russia thread, remember the 1000 page Mueller report Post that was the absolute end of Trump. I think it was deleted after you know, nothing happened at all. Will that happen here?

I'm going to put this very straight-forwardly for you. You can either accept it or not. There are a lot of reasons to impeach Trump, especially knowing that the Senate is almost certain to vote along party lines to let him off the hook.

But let's be clear about one thing: there is nobody here, and very, very few people on our side as a whole, who think this effort has a realistic chance of garnering a successful Senate conviction. That is not the end goal of the game. It is not our plan. I'd call it at best, a wildly optimistic stretch goal, akin to raising $2 million for a $50,000 kickstarter. Removing Trump is not the point. Trump will stand in the 2020 election. Personally, right now I give him a 60% chance of winning it too.

So what is the point? Multifaceted, but the overarching goal is to effectively destroy President Trump and render him impotent as a President. The nature of this specific impeachment effort, as opposed to the Mueller investigation, is uniquely suited for this goal.

So here I will lay out out to you.

(1) The Constitution and rule of law requires it.
The legal consensus is clear. What Trump committed is bribery under what the founders would have defined it and a definition that is still relevant given that political information is considered a "thing of value". His associated actions constitute obstruction of justice as we know it.

Adherence to the Constitution and the rule of law therefore requires the democrats to act as they are. If Democrats elected not to, they would be selectively enforcing both. This is crucial to our system of government which is based around rules that we live in and around, and are not tied to a specific purpose. To put it straightforwardly, because Donald Trump did something, the Constitution and rule of law demands a response for both to have any legitimacy.

Because we have moral and ethical responsibility to attempt to hold wrong doing accountable. If we don't try, then we only further undermine the rule of law. Not pursuing wrong doing because "conviction is difficult" is every bit as bad as the wrong doing. And opens the door to further acts of wrong doing.

(2) History demands it and it will set terms of post-Trump reform efforts.
Trump too, will pass. In 2020. In 2024. The day will come where he will be gone and his supporters will retcon their support for him and hide their MAGA hats in the attic next to their post-9/11 pro-War on Terror T-shirts and their "I love me some Freedom Fries" buttpacks. The clean up job for this administration will last a decade. Many people involved will go to jail. There will be a comprehensive (and overdue) reform effort.

Trump's crimes being a matter of legal record, having gone through the constitutional process for only the third time in history will define his administration and define a lower bound for Presidential behavior for many decades to come. Consider, even 50 years later, we still talk about Watergate despite most of the country not even being born at that time. Trump's actions in 2019, along with Trump-Russia, will be an object of law and history deep into the 21st century. Long after you and I are gone. It will be Trump's legacy to this country.

Had impeachment not moved forward, our children and successors would ask "how could you let this injustice happen?" much as we condemn our parents, grandparents and others for their grave misjustices. This effort though, along with Trump's anticipated clearing by the Senate, puts that question squarely in the hands of people like you and the Senate Republicans. The majority of Americans and Democrats as a whole are on board with bringing Trump to justice. That it didn't / doesn't happen, therefore, is on you not us. So our successors, who will judge you and your kind very harshly, will know who to point the finger to.

And going with that having defined specific crimes and unacceptable behavior, it makes reforms and banning practices or codifying procedures far easier than it having been hypothetical. For example, Congress could pass in the 2030s a law that would explicitly outlaw what Trump did here. Without it being a matter of record through impeachment, the theoretical argument it would otherwise be might lead to the effort dead ending. People would say "well a President would never do that". Turns out, this one did.


(3) It completes the breaking of Trump's power.
What's the point of being President if you really can't do anything other than engage in regulatory enforcement hijinks? Because that's the situation Trump faces. Domestically, his achievements so far are: (1) Nominating judges on courts that any Republican President would have named and (2) the Trump Tax Cut. That's it. Historically a President's most effective years are his first two. His White House's ineptitude, smart plays by Democrats and the Mueller investigation all worked together to basically make his first two years a bust.

Since then, he's done nothing domestically. Most notably, he's played no role in the budget other than as an obstructionist who caves. Every budy he has signed, and will continue to sign, is a modified version of the Bipartisan consensus budget (the 2 year deal model) that has passed every year since 2015, and likely will continue deep into the 2020s. The increasing weakness of Presidents over what goes into a budget is not a Trump thing. It actually started with Obama after the Budget Control Act of 2011 lead to Sequestration in 2013. I have documented how this came about and the ramifications extensively on this forum. I've applied it to the wall, and Medicare for All. But the short of it is, there is exactly one budget that can pass both chambers. Big new programs and Presidential initiatives are basically non-starters in them. So domestically, Trump is a President in name only. He can engage in mischief in enforcement - and then lose in the courts 93% of the time. But he is resigned to signing budgets Democrats and Republicans put on his desk in a bipartisan basis.

Or let me put it another way: President Hillary would sign basically the same budget and same bills.

Typically when Presidents find their domestic power curbed, they look internationally. And that is where the unique nature of this impeachement effort comes into play. It's FANTASTIC to the cause of neutering Trump because it involved another country.

Do you realize what it does? It's made Trump radioactive. Ukraine would rather be anywhere than an object of tug of war between two political parties in the US. Its government would rather be anywhere than fending off questions about meddling in US affairs. Not government in any country would want to be in their position, least of all for what the effects may be in their own Domestic politics.

This makes Trump a pariah. No government will get close to him. No government will bend over backwards for him. They will not (and do not) seek meetings with him. They deal with other US intermediaries, but not the upper echelon of his White House. They stay as far away from him as possible. We saw it at NATO in just the last couple of days, where the elected leaders of Canada, the UK and France were laughing at Trump. They think he's a joke. They do not respect him. And a person they don't respect, they won't work with. They'll avoid.

This is occurring across the planet. Trump is the most isolated and internationally impotent President of the United States since Calvin Coolidge. Not the US though. The US is doing mostly fine. But Trump has zero international power. He's either squandered all of it, or events have made him untouchable.

And here is the fun part, especially for you: even if he is re-elected, this will not change. Back in 2017, the question was among foreign leaders "is Trump an abberation? Should we wait him out? Or does he represent a fundamental and lasting shift?" The answer is yes, yes and no. They are clearly waiting Trump out, content that he is absorbed with domestic political intrigue. And so far that's been a reliable bet. He's only been a problem internationally a couple times a year.

No one wants to be in Zelensky's or Ukraine's position, and nobody wants to get pulled into a sequel to this. So as long as Trump is President, be it another 5 years or 1 year, he will find his ability to act internationally basically zero'd.

You want some practical effects? Every international leader will avoid talking to Trump whenever they can. Every international leader will minimize the topics and scope of the conversation when they have to have one, in order to not get pulled into some scheme by Trump. And every international leader will record their conversation so that if something comes up, they have a means to protect themselves from Trump (and domestic political criticism).

The impeachment process has also blown open the lid on confidential conversations. They effectively don't exist between Trump and any foreign leader anymore. Which means they won't take the POTUS into their confidence. Which further undermines Trump's power.

So put this together: domestically, he's a non-factor, signing bills the bipartisan consensus puts in front of him... internationally, he's a plague carrier. So what precisely is the point of Trump as President? What is a President who can't President,anyway? That is why impeachment has been so successful. Beating impeachment will not change this one bit because Trump is now tainted and will remain tainted as long as he is President.

So what is the point of Trump as President? What is he hoping to do in a second term considering he can't act in either domain? That's why this has been a major strategic victory for anti-Trump. You can win re-election. You can get him off the hook. it does not matter. Thus Presidents power has been permanently broken.



(4) To act as a deterrent against future behavior of this type by future Presidents.
Even if he isn't removed, who wants to go through an impeachment process? We are creating a precedent. Also combine with the above. That will be with FUTURE US Presidents too. Thanks to Trump.


(5) To make Republican Senators and Swing-district congressmen have to go on record as excusing Trump's clearly unconstitutional behavior.
This may complicate their election chances in 2020, but more broadly will damage their professional reputations and prospects for many years to come. Trying to take a bullet for THIS President is ultimately extremely short sighted for them. But many of them will do it and will pay for it. Where they stood on Trump impeachment will be a key litmus test among the general electorate for years to come, including any with future Senatoral, Gubinatorial or Presidential ambitions. Or any that want to become an Ambassador or become "Secretary of X" in the Cabinet. Democrats will bring it up for decades to come. Think of how the Iraq War and the vote for it damaged countless politicians careers. This will be that, but worse. And they all know it. That is why they dread impeachment. That's why most of them HATE this. Because most of them they secretly hate Trump and hate how they have to keep sticking their necks out for him. And they know it one day will catch up with them.

Through impeachment and making them vote to defend Trump in a vote that will echo through time, Democrats are making them pay for their betrayal of our shared American values and moral betrayal the Constitution.


(6) To damage Trump going into 2020.
The best argument Democrats can make to win in 2020 is that Trump is corrupt, self deals, put his own interest infront of the national interest and his very continuing on as President would only serve to undermine the legitimacy of the American system. Democrats are best served by pointing out the comparison of "while Trump advances himself and those of his friends, he is going to fuck up your healthcare and your retirements". Having Trump on record as being impeached, with clear charges of corruption, bribery, witness intimidation and extortion puts the onus on any swing voter thinking of supporting Trump to logic how all of this is not true, in the context of everything else we know about Trump. It's a tall order. Few will do it. It will also make Trump a liability to endangered candidates, and he will avoid campaigning with them, which will sap them of fundraising.


---------

From every angle it is a win for Democrats. Even the timing is perfect. The Trump-Russia investigation wrecked Donald Trump's first 2.5 years in office. He then had a summer where he engaged in these illegalities. Impeachment will consume, by the time its over, the window from September 2019 to probably around early-March 2020. Which will then lead into the election season. Which means Trump will have spent most of his 4 years entirely handcuffed by political and legal peril and otherwise unable to act effectively as President.

That is why we should bother. Removal isn't in the cards. The faintest of hopes. But that's not the point. This is a cudgel. And Democrats are breaking arms and legs.

This biggest scandal in American history. Bar none. Dwarfing Watergate. If we're to apply the letter of the law, this should basically decapitate the executive branch. Donald Trump never should have been President. He became President because of a confluence of factors: unresolved after effects of the financial crisis / great recession, generational turn over, an unpopular Democratic candidate, a talent drought in the Republican Party, the rise of right wing media, an national media that thought he was a lark and good for ratings, the loss of two wars in 15 years, but most of all an asymmetric attack on the United States by Russia.

We are here because of an accident of history that saw a racist, authoritarian hugging, un-American demagogue installed to the most powerful office of the most powerful country in the history of the world. The champion of democracy helmed by a would-be autocrat whose very presence defiles our national values.

The point isn't to remove Trump. The point is to break Trump's arms and legs and make him unable to be Presidenting. In that, while much of Trump's own ineptitude, the House-Senate 2 year deal model and the Mueller investigation have gone a long way in making that possible, this impeachement inquiry and the nature of what it is about, is the killing stroke.

It would be one thing if the impeachment inquiry were something like "Trump took money at a hotel in New York from a businessman from Toleodo". A purely domestic affair. But one of the few avenues of power Donald Trump still had open to him was foreign policy. By his impeachment being based in a foreign entanglement, he'll certainly find his routine foreign contracts zero'd. Leaders will not call him except if required to, and they'll be extremely careful with what they say. They'll also make their own records to protect themselves from being pulled into the swamp like the President of Ukraine was. Leaders will also not want to cut deals with Trump in order to avoid raising domestic questions about a quid-pro-quo, which is the basis of part of the whistleblower complaint.

So Donald Trump doesn't really have much to do as President anymore. He's not involved in budgets. He has no legislative agenda to speak of. His deregulatory agenda is basically non-existent outside of a some press releases. And he's internationally a pariah.

So what exactly is a President that can't be Presidenting? Well... nothing really. This is kind of the irony of it all. He's going to fight tooth and nail, and his defenders will organize in a phalanx to defend him... for what exactly? Because even if he wins re-election, none of this changes. Domestically, Pelosi will stay Speaker of the House, rendering dead his budgetary and legislative agenda. His regulatory agenda won't get better because the White House can't attract the right talent to handle it. Internationally, he's permanently tainted.

So what's the win condition here. The honor of remaining President? Pride?

[Machismo]

You're right, there will be massive turnout but not the outcome you're looking for. Especially when people look and see the best the Dems can offer are the likes of Warren, Sanders, et al.

Of course he's not getting removed, you Trump supporters would never let that happen. It doesn't matter who the Democrats nominate, you have already explicitly stated you are voting for Trump.

All this does, is show just how disingenuous you are.

- - - Updated - - -

You're right, he's not getting removed and likely getting re-elected.

This impeachment thread isn't going to age well.

Well, that is exactly what you want, as you are an admitted Trump supporter.

[Skroe]

You're right, he's not getting removed and likely getting re-elected.

That's largely irrelevant. See above. Getting re-elected after this process makes him basically the ultimate White House squatter.

What is the point of a President who can't be Presidenting anyway?

You know, it's ironic. Trump evidently though the POTUS was akin to the President of Germany or Israel... a largely ceremonial role. He had no idea its true responsibilities until after he was elected. He wanted to be a glorified ribbon cutter. Turns out, that's what he is being reduced to.

This impeachment thread isn't going to age well.

I think you're dead wrong on this, and it isn't even close. See above. There is nobody here thinking Trump is going to be removed.

This is about right and wrong. This is about one side standing for justice and the other side not. This is about bringing wrong doing to justice through a process. This is about speaking to history. It is also about inflicting political damage and breaking the President's power.

There is no win condition for Trump here. This is objectively the worst thing to happen to him in his professional life. Even beating impeachment won't see his domestic power renewed or foreign leaders line up to meet him. Beating impeachment would mean signing the same budgets he has no role in writing, still being a pariah, and being known forevermore as the US President that was saved ONLY because of a partisan Senate that betrayed their duty to the constitution.

I know you've been clutching your pearls at the divisiveness of this entire thing for months. Thinking because it won't succeed in removing Trump it's just a waste of time. Drop that shit. Seriously. Nobody cares. There will be no unity out of this. There will be no national coming together or understanding. We, the righteous, are strategically undermining the other side and upholding American values. The Republican Party has been exposed as the party of authoritarianism. Of power for powers sake.

This isn't the war. This is a big battle in it, but it's just a battle. The war for America's soul will last for many years to come. And in this battle, Democrats, their allies and all those who hold the Constitution and rule of law to actually mean something have already won.

I will stand by every word I wrote here. I imagine most posters will. I'm very proud of what I have advocated for in this thread and across this forum. Trump and his affiliates are a cancer upon America. And cancer must be attacked.

[cubby]

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/whit...ry?id=67502822

Former Vice President Joe Biden is responding unequivocally to a top White House official who said Wednesday that President Donald Trump is demanding a full Senate trial, featuring live witnesses, if and when the House sends over articles of impeachment: He does not plan to attend voluntarily.

"No, I’m not going to let them take their eye off the ball," Biden said outside a campaign event in Iowa Falls, Iowa, on Wednesday afternoon. "The president is the one who has committed impeachable crimes, and I’m not going to let him divert from that. I’m not going to let anyone divert from that."

So the alleged quid pro quo is about Joe Biden and his son, but Biden said he will not testify if a trial goes forward in the senate. I am sure he has nothing to hide.

More of your lies and mistruths - do you ever get tired of lying. The confirmed bribery is about Trump asking for political favors in exchange for foreign aid being released. The charges against Trump have nothing to do with anything Joe or Hunter Biden could offer - they literally weren't involved.

I thought you were a veteran. Don't you get tired of lying and betraying your country? Spreading these lies about the Impeachment Inquiry just hurts our country.

[mvaliz]

But let's be clear about one thing: there is nobody here, and very, very few people on our side as a whole, who think this effort has a realistic chance of garnering a successful Senate conviction. That is not the end goal of the game. It is not our plan.

He doesn't care. That's not his plan.

His plan is to convince the non-voter/casual reader/non politically minded to BELIEVE that's what our plan is. The type who believed Hillary is a criminal because "well, she's always being investigated - so SOMETHING's got to be wrong with her, right?"

So, when it comes time for the Senate to pardon him - he will run to the hills screaming "HE'S TOTALLY EXONERATED AND CRUSHED ALL WHO STAND BEFORE OUR GOD-KING!!!", hoping that the casual reader/non-voter hears him and says "yeah, I remember that Muller thing comming up with nothing... I guess this guy really does stand up to scrutiny."

EDIT: We all joke about Nunes talking stupid about ratings in regards to the impeachment inquiry... but the sad truth is - there's actually grain of truth in what he's saying. America, honestly, is filled with people who just fucking hate politics in general. Anything political they get, stems purely from backwash of friends and colleagues and the occasional glimpsed headline now and again.

THAT is who Jizzy is targeting. That's the kind of person he and the Dumpsters are looking for. The same suckers who still believe, to this day, that Hillary Clinton is some kind of War Criminal. The same suckers who just focus on their day-to-day jobs and that can-o-beer at the end of the day, and believe all politicians are "inherently evil" as a given.

[Endus]

Are you saying that Trump is not a U.S. citizen? Are you saying the rights afforded to American citizens are not afforded to him? Are you saying the single foundation upon which the American legal system is built is something other than the Constitution? These are not rhetorical questions. I'd like you to answer each of them, please.

Even though they're utterly dishonest questions to even ask, I've got nothing to lose by answering.

1> No, he's a US citizen.
2> He has the full protections of being a US citizen.
3> The foundation of the American legal system is the Constitution.

The problem for you is that none of these matter to the points you raised. He is not protected from members of Congress or the public declaring him to be guilty of a crime. He is not currently being prosecuted for any crime, and no criminal charges have been filed against him (because he's President, and they can't, mind you). The American legal system has next to nothing to do with impeachment proceedings. They're almost entirely separate. The only connection is that Senate proceedings are overseen by the Chief Justice of SCOTUS, but even there, Roberts won't be acting as a Judge, in terms of conviction or sentencing.

Are you arguing that the government should forego any evidentiary presentation, all prosecution, and all defense and simply remove Trump from office?

I'm saying they absolutely, 100% could, if they wanted to. All that is required is that;

1> The House draw up Articles of Impeachment, based on treason, bribery, or some other high crimes or misdemeanors.
2> The Senate will try those articles.
3> If they agree with them, they remove the President from office.

If the President turned out to have some unpaid parking tickets, that could be deemed a "misdemeanor", and would be grounds to impeach, if Congress wanted to. Even if the legal penalty for said misdemeanor is "pay the tickets plus an extra small fine for late payment". Still provides grounds, even if Trump pays it off the moment he's informed.

There are no requirements for presentation of evidence. There is no "prosecution". There is not grounds for the President to demand a defense. All of that is beyond the scope of impeachment as defined in the Constitution. They're procedural agreements that Congress generally allows for, but they are in no way required.

Because impeachment is not a legal proceeding. It does not occur in the courts. It is not a trial, there is no jury, and all those rights one has regarding court proceedings do not apply.

[Skroe]

He doesn't care. That's not his plan.

His plan is to convince the non-voter/casual reader/non politically minded to BELIEVE that's what our plan is. The type who believed Hillary is a criminal because "well, she's always being investigated - so SOMETHING's got to be wrong with her, right?"

So, when it comes time for the Senate to pardon him - he will run to the hills screaming "HE'S TOTALLY EXONERATED AND CRUSHED ALL WHO STAND BEFORE OUR GOD-KING!!!", hoping that the casual reader/non-voter hears him and says "yeah, I remember that Muller thing coming up with nothing... I guess this guy really does stand up to scrutiny."

Oh I'm sure. I just used him as an opportunity to lay out exactly what I feel the rationale for impeachment is despite the likely failure of removing him. The "why bother then?" argument is an idiotic one that presumes that the win condition is the final verdict, when the process of impeachment and everything that occurs because of the action is of equal, if not greater significance.

I mean consider for a moment, that successfully removing Trump would mean President Pence. And President Pence would likely find Americans sympathetic to a return to the status quo ante, and because he's not a complete idiot, would play to that and find fans among independents Trump lacks. And internationally, foreign leaders would seek to rebuild their American ties with an American who actually cares somewhat about American interests and values. Removing Trump would actually go against the purpose of breaking the power of the Trump-built White House. Keeping Trump around, as a neutered President, serves our long term purposes far greater I feel.

But I don't care about convincing Jeezy of anything. I know what he is. I just used him as a springboard to make a larger point. Impeachment without hope of removal is ENTIRELY and AWESOMELY purposeful.


We in anti-Trump need to repeat that as often and as loudly as possible, because one of the key-post impeachment arguments the Trumphadis will make is that it's all been a "nothing burger". A "waste of time". That's of course, not the case, and we should point to how curbed Trump's power is because of things pertaining to this and how much it will be for the rest of his time in office, so long as that lasts.

[cubby]

Can someone explain to me how impeachment is even possible when we know full well the Senate will never approve it?

Many people aren't fully aware of the process, and the terms. Impeachment is a process carried out by the House of Representatives, investigating, drawing up Articles of Impeachment, and the voting on them. A 50%+ vote in the House means the President (or other) has been Impeached, and the process then moves to the Senate for a trial and vote on removal from office.

What people usually get uncertain about is that Impeachment itself isn't removal from office. President Bill Clinton is the prime example. He was Impeached by the House, but not found guilty in the Senate trial, so he was not removed from office.

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What does that have to do with our conversation?

What have you asked?

You're really bordering on sealioning at this point. Impeachment is NOT A LEGAL PROCEDURE, and should not be mistaken for a court of law. Ever. You keep making references to the U.S. legal system, and that is factually wrong.

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Are you saying that Trump is not a U.S. citizen? Are you saying the rights afforded to American citizens are not afforded to him? Are you saying the single foundation upon which the American legal system is built is something other than the Constitution? These are not rhetorical questions. I'd like you to answer each of them, please.

Are you arguing that the government should forego any evidentiary presentation, all prosecution, and all defense and simply remove Trump from office?

Are you saying you don't understand the Impeachment process? Because so far that's all you've demonstrated.

[Somewhatconcerned]

That's largely irrelevant. See above. Getting re-elected after this process makes him basically the ultimate White House squatter.

What is the point of a President who can't be Presidenting anyway?

You know, it's ironic. Trump evidently though the POTUS was akin to the President of Germany or Israel... a largely ceremonial role. He had no idea its true responsibilities until after he was elected. He wanted to be a glorified ribbon cutter. Turns out, that's what he is being reduced to.


I think you're dead wrong on this, and it isn't even close. See above. There is nobody here thinking Trump is going to be removed.

This is about right and wrong. This is about one side standing for justice and the other side not. This is about bringing wrong doing to justice through a process. This is about speaking to history. It is also about inflicting political damage and breaking the President's power.

There is no win condition for Trump here. This is objectively the worst thing to happen to him in his professional life. Even beating impeachment won't see his domestic power renewed or foreign leaders line up to meet him. Beating impeachment would mean signing the same budgets he has no role in writing, still being a pariah, and being known forevermore as the US President that was saved ONLY because of a partisan Senate that betrayed their duty to the constitution.

I know you've been clutching your pearls at the divisiveness of this entire thing for months. Thinking because it won't succeed in removing Trump it's just a waste of time. Drop that shit. Seriously. Nobody cares. There will be no unity out of this. There will be no national coming together or understanding. We, the righteous, are strategically undermining the other side and upholding American values. The Republican Party has been exposed as the party of authoritarianism. Of power for powers sake.

This isn't the war. This is a big battle in it, but it's just a battle. The war for America's soul will last for many years to come. And in this battle, Democrats, their allies and all those who hold the Constitution and rule of law to actually mean something have already won.

I will stand by every word I wrote here. I imagine most posters will. I'm very proud of what I have advocated for in this thread and across this forum. Trump and his affiliates are a cancer upon America. And cancer must be attacked.

Is he an impotent President when/if fills RBG's seat sometime between now and 2024? Or all the other judiciary positions?

[cubby]

Is he an impotent President when/if fills RBG's seat sometime between now and 2024? Or all the other judiciary positions?

I love that you skip all the issues of right and wrong being dragged out here in the Impeachment process - it's the classic Trumpkin tactic of avoiding reality and facts, because they never work well for you.

Impotent Trump is such because he can no longer conduct foreign policy beyond the borders of the United States. He was literally laughed out of the NATO summit yesterday. No foreign leader wants his call or his visit. He'll of course still be able to do so, because the other country's leaders aren't spoiled man-children, but to actually conduct business on the international level is no longer possible.