Former Federal Prosecutors Call for Disbarment and Indictment of Rudy Guilliani

[Orbitus]

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...tm_name=iossmf

And he absolutely should be. Since he, as a private citizen, and non government entity cannot and should not be doing negotiations on behalf of the US government. Since he was the one that went to Ukraine personally to do this negotiations and sham "investigation". He even admitted to it on live TV on several channels now. This is a violation of the Logan Act and very much indictable.

[Lanrefni]

It would be amusing to have Trumps personal lawyer disbarred right before he's impeached.

[Wyrt]

He should, but he won't because the DOJ will protect him. Ah corruption.

[Orbitus]

He should, but he won't because the DOJ will protect him. Ah corruption.

I think he is licensed to practice in New York City, which New York could absolutely disbar him. As far as indictment? I don't know if they can.

[Breccia]

He should, but he won't because the DOJ will protect him. Ah corruption.

I think he is licensed to practice in New York City, which New York could absolutely disbar him. As far as indictment? I don't know if they can.

Yeah, the DoJ can't protect him from disbarrment in any way. They can try to protect him from being indicted, which would be easy, since he's likely committing a federal crime (if it's a crime at all) and Barr will simply refuse to move on it.

[Wyrt]

I think he is licensed to practice in New York City, which New York could absolutely disbar him. As far as indictment? I don't know if they can.

Yeah, New York State bar can and should disbar him, but indictment is out of reach until Trump's out of office. Assuming Trump doesn't pardon him.

[mvaliz]

Can they also call for him to be committed as well?

In fact, being lawyers, I'd imagine that's probably easier for them to do than to have him disbarred! ;P

[Citizen T]

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...tm_name=iossmf

And he absolutely should be. Since he, as a private citizen, and non government entity cannot and should not be doing negotiations on behalf of the US government. Since he was the one that went to Ukraine personally to do this negotiations and sham "investigation". He even admitted to it on live TV on several channels now. This is a violation of the Logan Act and very much indictable.

Does anyone have proof that his actions are unauthorized? If Trump asked/told him to do this, then it was authorized and it becomes blatantly clear that no violation occurred. This is in direct contrast to John Kerry's actions with Iran a little while ago.

[Belize]

Does anyone have proof that his actions are unauthorized? If Trump asked/told him to do this, then it was authorized and it becomes blatantly clear that no violation occurred. This is in direct contrast to John Kerry's actions with Iran a little while ago.

Rudy Giuliani does not work for the government, and therefore cannot do business with other countries on behalf of the government.

I don't know how much more black and white this can be.

[Machismo]

Does anyone have proof that his actions are unauthorized? If Trump asked/told him to do this, then it was authorized and it becomes blatantly clear that no violation occurred. This is in direct contrast to John Kerry's actions with Iran a little while ago.

That's not really how it works. If you are ordered by the president to murder someone, and do so, you are not absolved of your crime.

[eschatological]

That's not really how it works. If you are ordered by the president to murder someone, and do so, you are not absolved of your crime.

Not exactly true. The President has broad authority over certain areas. If you're a spec-ops operator and the President personally asks you to perform an off-the-books operation, it would likely be found to not be illegal under U.S. law, though of course assassination statutes may apply both federally and internationally. It's all about the reasonableness of the request, and the expectations of the duty of the person in question.

In any case, the President can't authorize his personal attorney, who has no formal role in the government, to negotiate with a foreign country on anything, let alone aid packages already approved by Congress. It would be an interesting legal question if he asked someone from State to do it, though. And seeing as that's the "legitimate" way to do it, it seems like there's little-to-no legitimate way Trump could have done it.

[Machismo]

Not exactly true. The President has broad authority over certain areas. If you're a spec-ops operator and the President personally asks you to perform an off-the-books operation, it would likely be found to not be illegal under U.S. law, though of course assassination statutes may apply both federally and internationally. It's all about the reasonableness of the request, and the expectations of the duty of the person in question.

In any case, the President can't authorize his personal attorney, who has no formal role in the government, to negotiate with a foreign country on anything, let alone aid packages already approved by Congress. It would be an interesting legal question if he asked someone from State to do it, though. And seeing as that's the "legitimate" way to do it, it seems like there's little-to-no legitimate way Trump could have done it.

In that case, it's not murder. If he orders you to commit a crime, then you are still committing that crime. In this case, murder is a crime. Homicide is not necessarily a crime, but murder is.

So, if Trump had ordered Giuliani to murder his political opponent, then it is still a crime. We don't live in Russia, after all.

[Felya]

Does anyone have proof that his actions are unauthorized? If Trump asked/told him to do this, then it was authorized and it becomes blatantly clear that no violation occurred. This is in direct contrast to John Kerry's actions with Iran a little while ago.

Bullshit! Trump claimed that what Kerry did was breaking the law, but just like “lock her up”, can’t do shit about it, because there is nothing there. It’s why Trump and Giuliani are groveling for Ukraine to do it... because Trump has the will and authority as president, but no merit.

A very simple question... If Biden broke the law, why is the president of US and his lawyer groveling for another government to investigate?

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Not exactly true. The President has broad authority over certain areas.

Indeed... This includes having the authority to launch an investigation into Biden. What Trump lacks is merit, which is why he needs a different government to do it. If Trump has merit to go after Biden, there is no one above the president for him to call.

[Somewhatconcerned]

Is "But Biden..." the new "But Antifa" ?

[Felya]

Is "But Biden..." the new "But Antifa" ?

No, the president of US is so impotent, he needs his lawyer and a foreign government to investigate someone.

[Orbitus]

Does anyone have proof that his actions are unauthorized? If Trump asked/told him to do this, then it was authorized and it becomes blatantly clear that no violation occurred. This is in direct contrast to John Kerry's actions with Iran a little while ago.

Yes, Guilliani isn't in the fucking federal government. That makes it a fucking crime. And John Kerry started the negotiations when he was Secretary of State. And as far as I know, Kerry stopped the negotiations when his tenure was over.

[Breccia]

If Trump asked/told him to do this, then it was authorized and it becomes blatantly clear that no violation occurred.

Actually, Giuliani is facing a laundry list of laws that his actions broke.

There are several different federal laws that might apply to Giuliani’s conduct here. Most obviously, Giuliani appears to be in violation of the Logan Act, which makes it a crime for private citizens who attempt to intervene without authorization in disputes or controversies between the United States and foreign governments. He is Trump’s personal lawyer, not a government official, and so his involvement is clearly a complicating, detrimental element for U.S. diplomatic interests. Ukraine officials need to know who is speaking for the president and, as Ukrainian journalist Serhiy Leshchenko wrote this week, who is trying to “drag” Ukraine into a U.S. presidential election.

More significant, Giuliani and Trump’s reported actions raise the real specter of a federal criminal bribery and extortion conspiracy. While Attorney General William Barr has made it clear that he will not prosecute Trump due to current DOJ policy, Giuliani enjoys no such privilege or immunity. And, while the factual record is not fully developed, federal investigations are opened every day against people with far less known and incriminating information. Any objective prosecutor, I believe, would agree with that.

As explained by my colleague, former U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade, in the Daily Beast, it is a crime under the federal bribery statute for a public official to demand anything of value in exchange for performing an official act. Additionally, the Hobbs Act defines extortion as "obtaining property from another, with his consent, under color of official right." McQuade continues:

The essence of both crimes is a demand by a public official to obtain something for himself to which he is not entitled in exchange for performing an official act of his office. Here, if the reporting is correct, Trump may be similarly committing bribery and extortion by using the power of his office to demand a thing of value, dirt on Biden, in exchange for an official act, the provision of military aid. This is precisely the kind of old-fashioned corruption scheme that the bribery and extortion statutes were designed to punish.

And, if Giuliani assisted or agreed to assist this scheme — even if he did not fully adopt the entire plan — may have aided and abetted or conspired to commit those same crimes. In addition, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act makes it illegal for a U.S. citizen to corruptly offer “anything of value” to a foreign official to retain business or influence an official decision.

Giuliani defended himself by claiming that “no money was mentioned, no quid pro quo,” in the call between Trump and the Ukranian president. Let’s see if that’s true. But more important, Giuliani — a former mob prosecutor — surely knows that most crimes don’t happen so explicitly. In 16 years of listening to criminals on wiretaps, I rarely heard anyone say, “If you don’t give me X, I will do Y.” That’s not how mafia bosses work. They make a “request” and others follow up with the demand. The law is very clear that a quid pro quo need not be explicit for a crime to have taken place. It can be inferred from the facts as a whole.

Even if there was no quid pro quo (no withholding of military aid, in this case), Giuliani was clearly acting on behalf of Trump’s campaign in seeking to persuade Ukraine to “investigate” the Bidens. Federal law prohibits a foreign national from directly or indirectly making a “contribution or donation of money or other thing of value” in connection with a U.S. election, and prohibits a person from soliciting, accepting or receiving such a contribution or donation from a foreign national. Damaging information about a political opponent could fit within this definition, meaning Trump and Giuliani solicited an illegal “thing of value” from a foreign national in connection with an election.

Bear in mind, Giuliani (Trump's personal lawyer with no government role) met his counterpart in Madrid in secret. They were supposed to meet earlier, but Giuliani admitted canceling it because of who might be watching.

Trump has an entire Justice Department. He even mentioned Barr during the phone call. That would have been legitimate government business (probably). Giuliani's involvement, as a non-DoJ member, means Trump was acting on his own private interests when asking for a favor from a head of state of a foreign country. From the Oval Office. That's not legal, either, and it makes Giuliani a co-conspirator.

Or, you could listen to Trump. Trump was vocal about Kerry violating the Logan Act, because Kerry was a private citizen dealing with a foreign government as if he had the authority to do so. So, either you believe Giuliani violated the Logan Act, or you don't believe Trump.

[cubby]

Does anyone have proof that his actions are unauthorized? If Trump asked/told him to do this, then it was authorized and it becomes blatantly clear that no violation occurred. This is in direct contrast to John Kerry's actions with Iran a little while ago.

He's a non government employee working to negotiate on behalf of the government. The State Department today confirmed that Guiliani does not work nor represent him. Now, that being said, there more than likely isn't some bright line rule saying all negotiations have to come from government employees.

However, the Big Dumb G's actions are illegal, because he was soliciting election assistance from a foreign government. So there's that.

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We need to be careful, however, in dragging in this Guilliani bullshit into the impeachment process. They need to leave this to NY State for disbarment or the DOJ to indict on any federal charges.

We don't care about Big 'Ol Dumb G - we need to keep our eye on the prize.

[Halicia]

It would be amusing to have Trumps personal lawyer disbarred right before he's impeached.

Hasn't Trump's personal lawyer thats currently serving time on crimes committed on Individual 1's behalf already been disbarred ?

[Blur4stuff]

Rudy's reputation was damaged by his run for president, but he could have rehabbed it with the right moves.

Instead, he's made certain that history will remember him as a complete pile of shit.