Saurfang broke the rules before Sylvanas did.

[Makorus]

People acting like they are experts on lore when they state that Mak'gora has set rules is so hilarious.

Mak'gora is a concept. It has no established rules. Did you learn of Mak'gora from the movie as well?

[Raisei]

So Sylvanas used just plain daggers, huh? Explain to me how Saurfangs wounds are emmiting purplish smoke and light then? That my dear is either shadow magic, the same we saw Sylvanas infuse into the arrow she shot at Genn in Stormheim, or it is Poison/Blight. Both things would have no place in an honourable duel.

I always understood a Mak'gora as a duel where both parties use all of their power to win. It is not about an equality of weapons, but of your worth as a fighter, so you use the tools you have. Otherwise how could a duel between a warrior and a shaman ever be fair, if the shaman has to limit himself to just melee weapons, he would always loose against a warrior that specialises in them.

Hence why I see no problem with Thrall pummeling Garrosh with rocks and lightning. In game we know very well that a warrior can deflect spells with sheer willpower and kill mages and shamans. If Garrosh couldn't do that, he is the weaker fighter. End of story.

And in the duel between Saurfang and Sylvanas there is even less of a problem, since they obviously both use magically enchanted weapons and I am not even sure Sylvanas speed can be called "natural" or is also magically enchanced.

But I guess the loyalists have to somehow cope with the fact that their Waifu doesn't care about them. Probably soon we see a Thread: "Saurfangs blade was poisoned with Traitor juice! Sylvanas did not say these things willingly!!"

[msdos]

It's not like he had ever wielded Varian's blade before and had that planned or as if he knew exactly how to separate them at the perfect time and it still be able to land the blow on her and still be in this middle of his speech. All of it was spur of the moment.

The blade's magical properties enhance the blade it's self, it's not like the blade infused Saurfang with heroism pally power or something lol. If that's the case, Varian might not have even fallen on the Broken Shore. Now if Anduin had handed him Frostmourne or Maw of the Damned, then maybe you had an argument lol.
0/10 troll.

[Newname1234567890]

Jesus fucking christ. Makrok laws are flexible and ever changing in lore so if no one raises an issue with it on the scene, which they dont, its save to assume its probably kosha.

Also cheeting in a traditional duel < genocide and orchestrating a global war to kill as many as people as possible.

That is her goal from her own mouth. Her plan is redeemable and evil.

[Vladier]

This doesn't mean those nations regard the traditions of orcs at all in the same way. Yes Cairne went with the rites, Magatha also undermined them entirely as a means to her own ends... Tauren ideals from different perspectives. Trolls, dark spear type at least, are an odd spot. Yes there is that Debt Thrall managed to pull them in with, that Garrosh then trashed entirely... This doesn't bind them to orc ideals though.

But Mak'gora isn't just orc ideals. It's one of the Horde's laws. As is being a Warchief. Or will you say that being a Warchief is also an orc ideal?

I disagree that they'd dip straight off based on that encounter shown at the gates. They'd still weigh options and Anduin and his merry band of friends doesn't offer much except his honeyed words. The Alliance backed forces have NEVER really acted for the benefit of others unless they themselves benefit from the outcome so the side being used might still be a preferable position than jumping in bed with Stormwind. Note, there still exists the likes of Gann Stonespire who won't be satisfied with such outcomes. I'm not saying to look solely to sociopaths... but that some people aren't so invoked to anger to oust a leader because of a single outburst and some out of context babble.

If people like Gann Stonespire are truly patriots and not just vengeful hypocrites, they would be even less satisfied by someone calling them nothing.
Also, "out of context", sure.
"The Horde will endure! The Horde is strong!" "THE HORDE IS NOTHING!.. YOU ARE ALL NOTHING!"
Do you even know what "out of context" means? It means that proper context changes the meaning. It would be out of context if Sylvanas was mocking someone saying or implying those words. But in this scenario the meaning is the same both in and out of context.

But it still remains something that those who value their word would value. It's worth paying attention to how easily it seems some parties tossed it aside when handling such events as clear and overt acts of betrayal to those in charge. New groups not fully aware of what it meant to be the horde, blood elves who have always been itching to jump sides when it suits them....

Just because one figure holds it in less regard doesn't mean everyone tosses it aside.

TLDR:

it still makes little sense how it turned out.

The Blood Oath is about how a warrior of the Horde willingly surrenders themselves to the Warchief of the Horde. As in, someone who, among other things, is supposed to represent the Horde to its citizens and the world. As in, not someone who just declared the entirety of the Horde, with all its traditions, titles and protocols, as nothing and then fled. Not Sylvanas Windrunner. Not the Dark Lady of the Forsaken. Not the Banshee Queen (which seems to be the only title she still legitimately bears, considering the amount of banshees still in her retinue). The Warchief.

Even the most steadfast don't have to keep an oath to someone who broke their part first. Such is the nature of oaths - it is a contract with two sides to it.

[Techno-Druid]

There is not and has never been a rule against magic in mak'gora. The standard rules are 1) no armor 2) at least one witness 3) banishment for refusing the fight.

The mak'gora between Cairne and Garrosh was considered dishonorable because neither side knew that the blade was poisoned (by a third party) beforehand. Garrosh knew what he was getting into both times he fought Thrall and so did Saurfang facing Sylvanas.

[Kumorii]

To be fair it's kinda moot. She knew she couldn't stay after dropping her "Horde is nothing, you are all nothing" line... so she couldn't care less even if there were rules. She blew him up and frankly, I found that refreshing instead of having a long drawn out fight. Just a moment like a snap and he's gone. I expected his comeback to be more drawn out.

Anyway, she couldn't stay, so fuck it, kill the dude and leave. Who cheated is irrelevant because it's what she said that was her undoing not if mak'gora was honored or not.

[mickybrighteyes]

But Mak'gora isn't just orc ideals. It's one of the Horde's laws. As is being a Warchief. Or will you say that being a Warchief is also an orc ideal?

common sense and the handling of Cairne indicates it is a very foolish event altogether. You're still not really explaining why Ji Firepaw and his Houjin would care much for such details.

If people like Gann Stonespire are truly patriots and not just vengeful hypocrites, they would be even less satisfied by someone calling them nothing.

You seem hung up on the insult, a lot of people would be... but I guess sitting stuck in the middle of a shit sandwich like this:


has made the whole "You are a worthless" thing sort of... well nothing.

Also, "out of context", sure.

Yes, we can choose to take this outburst as the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but the fact remains we are still in the dark about what the hell is really going on.

"The Horde will endure! The Horde is strong!"

Some meat head who is JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for all the bullshit going on beating his chest.

"THE HORDE IS NOTHING!.. YOU ARE ALL NOTHING!"

Still an apparent kneejerk response that, if we dig further might be part of some plan or plot the story hasn't bothered sharing.

Do you even know what "out of context" means? It means that proper context changes the meaning. It would be out of context if Sylvanas was mocking someone saying or implying those words. But in this scenario the meaning is the same both in and out of context.

Maybe I'd like to see the whole story before I get butt hurt because the biggest most overt evil thing the big bad evil character the story is pushing has been shown doing since the launch of the expansion (teldrassil technically taking place prior to launch) is name calling...

The Blood Oath is about how a warrior of the Horde willingly surrenders themselves to the Warchief of the Horde. As in, someone who, among other things, is supposed to represent the Horde to its citizens and the world. As in, not someone who just declared the entirety of the Horde, with all its traditions, titles and protocols, as nothing and then fled. Not Sylvanas Windrunner. Not the Dark Lady of the Forsaken. Not the Banshee Queen (which seems to be the only title she still legitimately bears, considering the amount of banshees still in her retinue). The Warchief.

That's the thing... you're saying she fled therefore she lost the titles and everything all because she said something you took offense to.

I'm saying it's bullshit that the entire collected force immediately said fuck it to buddy up with the enemy forces that marched on the gate simply because Sylvanas walked away. cue the forsaken were abandoned lines and all that bullshit that's just forced story railroading to make the masses just entirely agree with the new regime change that STILL makes no sense.

Realistically speaking, Sylvanas could have stayed there and continued insulting whoever for whatever reason and would still hold more authority than Saurfang/Thrall/Anduin/whoever else among the rebels. People taking umbridge with their less than grandiose state in the universal scale be damned.

[Mehrunes]

Precisely. I can't believe people surely try to argue the lolrules that literally no one and their mother ever cared about, besides literally one duel in the whole franchise.

I mean, that one duel was outright stated to be a traditional Mak'gora, which should have made it obvious to anyone that it's not particularly relevant to other ones. The only rule Mak'gora as a whole has is that it's 1 on 1 duel.

[Vladier]

common sense and the handling of Cairne indicates it is a very foolish event altogether. You're still not really explaining why Ji Firepaw and his Houjin would care much for such details.

Well, Ji wouldn't, because he was both on Saurfang's side and in Thunderbluff.

You seem hung up on the insult, a lot of people would be... but I guess sitting stuck in the middle of a shit sandwich like this:


has made the whole "You are a worthless" thing sort of... well nothing.

Keep telling yourself that.

Yes, we can choose to take this outburst as the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but the fact remains we are still in the dark about what the hell is really going on.

Why should they? She literally doubled down on her disgust for the Horde after her initial outburst. She did not even try to take her initial words back. She knew perfectly well what she was saying, and everyone saw that.

Some meat head who is JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for all the bullshit going on beating his chest.

High Overlord of the Horde and commander of the Might of Kalimdor, not some meathead.

Still an apparent kneejerk response that, if we dig further might be part of some plan or plot the story hasn't bothered sharing.

If only she bothered sharing. I'm sure everyone would understand and love her for revealing that she despises everyone for daring to believe in hope and clinging to life, and how she had a deal with Queen Azshara to release N'Zoth with the intention to kill everyone.

Maybe I'd like to see the whole story before I get butt hurt because the biggest most overt evil thing the big bad evil character the story is pushing has been shown doing since the launch of the expansion (teldrassil technically taking place prior to launch) is name calling...

Namecalling is proportionate to the power the namecaller wields. If the supreme ruler of your entire nation were to declare you an asshole for no reason you would be excused from ever voting for them or whatever it is you do to give them power.

That's the thing... you're saying she fled therefore she lost the titles and everything all because she said something you took offense to.

I'm saying it's bullshit that the entire collected force immediately said fuck it to buddy up with the enemy forces that marched on the gate simply because Sylvanas walked away. cue the forsaken were abandoned lines and all that bullshit that's just forced story railroading to make the masses just entirely agree with the new regime change that STILL makes no sense.

The Forsaken have to right for the most umbrage over the situation. Sylvanas literally saved them from the Lich King's control and they practically worshipped her for ages. Then she destroyed their city in a bid to kill the Alliance leaders, but it's alright, she did this because that was the only real choice, right? But now she reveals that she considers them worthless to her, tools for her to use. There is a reason why cults of personality at least try to have an air of a loving leader. Such cults aren't built around people who call their followers shit to their face, at least not before having their blackshirts execute the one so called.

Realistically speaking, Sylvanas could have stayed there and continued insulting whoever for whatever reason and would still hold more authority than Saurfang/Thrall/Anduin/whoever else among the rebels. People taking umbridge with their less than grandiose state in the universal scale be damned.

Thrall is literally the founder of the Horde and Saurfang was with him from the very beginning of it as the High Overlord. Orcs, trolls and tauren owe their lives to him. Some dead chick that joined the Horde on behest of frigging Magatha Grimtotem is not going to have more authority than them, not especially after she insulted everyone in her own audience.

[Goldielocks]

I see Sylvanas shills are still trying to hold on to the notion that she deserves respect. It’s adorable.

[mickybrighteyes]

Why should they? She literally doubled down on her disgust for the Horde after her initial outburst. She did not even try to take her initial words back. She knew perfectly well what she was saying, and everyone saw that.

The faction that propped her up, question her every actions and immediately sided with outright traitors and still questioned her when the alliance was at the gates...

Just saying... it

High Overlord of the Horde and commander of the Might of Kalimdor, not some meathead.

His strategy was to swing his sword till something worked... his years of tactics and strategy really came up with a good plan.

Thrall is literally the founder of the Horde

The founder of the nation who forced them to live in a terrible location because he deemed it a penance and then when HE was finished he just left by passing his position off to some barely qualified runt who was recently propped up because Thrall asked for it...

and Saurfang was with him from the very beginning of it as the High Overlord.

As Saurfang was in it with his all until he decided it was time for his time to come to it's end and kept throwing himself at battels trying to kill himself only to be disappointed. Well now he finally got what he wanted at least. Only had to disobey all his orders, throw out his own war, and get in bed with the alliance to fight his own nation to get it.

Orcs, trolls and tauren owe their lives to him.

So now Saurfang is owed the debt thrall gave up? Why

Some dead chick that joined the Horde on behest of frigging Magatha Grimtotem is not going to have more authority than them, not especially after she insulted everyone in her own audience.

Some dead chick that took up the mantle when asked and still lead and wasn't in bed with the enemy holds less authority than a lone orc who ran to the alliance?

[Thage]

Sylvanas began the duel using magic to empower her weapons. Or did you miss the shadowy tendrils wafting off her gauntlets and weapons, and from Saurfang's wounds, OP? Neither agreed on a rule that magic weapons were forbidden. I'd go so far as to say Sylvanas using magic to kill Saurfang wasn't even explicitly cheating, just really shitty and underhanded. The mak'gora itself wasn't the point for Saurfang, it was getting Sylvanas to out herself and get the Horde to turn on her in full, which she did and it did. It was a suicide gambit, one that paid off in spades.

[Raisei]

Sylvanas began the duel using magic to empower her weapons. Or did you miss the shadowy tendrils wafting off her gauntlets and weapons, and from Saurfang's wounds, OP? Neither agreed on a rule that magic weapons were forbidden. I'd go so far as to say Sylvanas using magic to kill Saurfang wasn't even explicitly cheating, just really shitty and underhanded. The mak'gora itself wasn't the point for Saurfang, it was getting Sylvanas to out herself and get the Horde to turn on her in full, which she did and it did. It was a suicide gambit, one that paid off in spades.

Exactly. Saurfang clearly stated that he couldn't win the duel. His only goal was to hold on long enough and make Sylvanas angry enough that she wouuld drop her act of caring about the Horde. He could even be sure that Sylvanas would not outright blast him with a spell because she wanted to make him suffer first. So there was not even a reason for him to demand a non-magical combat. Even if Sylvanas had gone full Palpatine and tortured him with spells his plan would have worked.

The most epic thing about the duel however was ironically the magic (Anduin's Light magic?) that allowed Shalamayne to react to Saurfang's hope and made him cut the Banshee that wants to destroy hope on a global level. I was hoping (ha) she had lost an eye to that hit, but it seems to be more of a shallow cut. Oh well, maybe that evil hope will infect her and slowly rot her dead body...

[Aucald]

Exactly. Saurfang clearly stated that he couldn't win the duel. His only goal was to hold on long enough and make Sylvanas angry enough that she wouuld drop her act of caring about the Horde. He could even be sure that Sylvanas would not outright blast him with a spell because she wanted to make him suffer first. So there was not even a reason for him to demand a non-magical combat. Even if Sylvanas had gone full Palpatine and tortured him with spells his plan would have worked.

The most epic thing about the duel however was ironically the magic (Anduin's Light magic?) that allowed Shalamayne to react to Saurfang's hope and made him cut the Banshee that wants to destroy hope on a global level. I was hoping (ha) she had lost an eye to that hit, but it seems to be more of a shallow cut. Oh well, maybe that evil hope will infect her and slowly rot her dead body...

Saurfang scoring a hit in what was crouched as a hopeless duel is symbolic, I think, of the notion that no one is invincible or unstoppable. I don't know if the Light facilitated Saurfang's use of Shalamayne or not (it's definitely an interesting question), but it basically underlined the whole notion of "hope" that's permeated Sylvanas' specific narrative. One old soldier showed that hope still existed, and that same hope ended the regime of a tyrant and freed an entire world from a hopeless and seemingly endless war that would only result in the deaths of multitudes with no clear path to any form of victory. It wasn't Sylvanas alone who was defeated at the gates of Orgrimmar - her nihilistic message was defeated, as well. That's a pretty significant development for both the Horde and the Alliance.

[Vladier]

The faction that propped her up, question her every actions and immediately sided with outright traitors and still questioned her when the alliance was at the gates...
Just saying... it

Why shouldn't a leader be questioned? Nothing in the Blood Oath explicitly prohibits it, or otherwise the Mak'gora would be against it as well.

His strategy was to swing his sword till something worked... his years of tactics and strategy really came up with a good plan.

His strategy (after the initial one of direct battle failed due to Sylvanas' unexpected strength) was to lay out Sylvanas' failures to her face and have her make a mistake in judgement, costing her the Horde.

The founder of the nation who forced them to live in a terrible location because he deemed it a penance and then when HE was finished he just left by passing his position off to some barely qualified runt who was recently propped up because Thrall asked for it...

No one of the Old Horde generation of the orcs objected, mind. The only one we actually see lamenting their predicament is of the generation that didn't participate in their crimes. So if you blame Thrall (who himself was instilled with racial guilt by Doomhammer, by the way) blame the entirety of the Old Horde (and Orgrimm in particular).

As Saurfang was in it with his all until he decided it was time for his time to come to it's end and kept throwing himself at battels trying to kill himself only to be disappointed. Well now he finally got what he wanted at least. Only had to disobey all his orders, throw out his own war, and get in bed with the alliance to fight his own nation to get it.

The war was never Saurfang's in the first place. He objected to it at first and after Teldrassil, which according to his design was supposed to be occupied. It was Sylvanas who convinced him that the war was necessary in the first place. And it's clear by now that the only thing she needed the war for is to feed the hungering darkness.

So now Saurfang is owed the debt thrall gave up? Why

Thrall is owed that debt. And Thrall is at Saurfang's side.

Some dead chick that took up the mantle when asked and still lead and wasn't in bed with the enemy holds less authority than a lone orc who ran to the alliance?

Most certainly, after she decided to tell the entire Horde that she has no need of them and that she considers them utter trash. She deserves even less now that we know her plans even with such and incomplete picture.

Could you be any more biased for Sylvanas and against Saurfang or anyone else who is against her? I don't really know, but I do know your post history. Even Sylvanas herself is less of an apologist for herself than you are.

[Aurondarklord]

They were both using magic weapons from the start. Under normal circumstances, cutting someone with a knife doesn't leave a purple glow or cause their wounds to emit smoke.

[mickybrighteyes]

Why shouldn't a leader be questioned? Nothing in the Blood Oath explicitly prohibits it, or otherwise the Mak'gora would be against it as well.

I'm not saying a leader shouldn't be questioned. But the methods by which this rebellion started are horseshit.

Saurfang disobeyed orders and threw out his war effort... then ran into the alliance's custody.
Baine decided to attack horde military personnel and steal a ship to go meet with the Alliance.

The rest don't really 'question' so much as collude with the enemy nation. as a FIRST action when they jump ship.

Mayla? what was her 'questioning' when we see her witnessing the events of Baine's incarceration and that Tidesage get executed... we next see her rallying there on the field with Anduin?

This went 0 to 100 with all of the details simply implied and not stated.

His strategy (after the initial one of direct battle failed due to Sylvanas' unexpected strength) was to lay out Sylvanas' failures to her face and have her make a mistake in judgement, costing her the Horde.

Again... this event is so forced. We're shown the denouncement of the horde as taking more precedence than the implication of actively seeking body count (which is only laid out if you stick it out to the loyalist ending)... That outburst and calling everything nothing was utter trash and, in my opinion, you have to have as nihilistic a view as Sylvanas or such soft skin you'd have never lasted as any of the horde faction to be so easily swayed by harsh insults... no matter WHO delivers them.

The war was never Saurfang's in the first place. He objected to it at first and after Teldrassil, which according to his design was supposed to be occupied. It was Sylvanas who convinced him that the war was necessary in the first place. And it's clear by now that the only thing she needed the war for is to feed the hungering darkness.

He planned it, orchestrated it, and did all the leg work to make it so. It was his war... even after he threw in the towel trying to solo the alliance army in Lordaeron, he still left of his own volition to keep fighting it and lead the rebellion.

Most certainly, after she decided to tell the entire Horde that she has no need of them and that she considers them utter trash. She deserves even less now that we know her plans even with such and incomplete picture.

Yet Thrall and Saurfang stand there with the likes who have attacked and killed the horde for years, bringing old foes to the gates of Orgrimmar for some poorly defined idea of justice or honor that has changed as many times as his plans in the war did. He brought the golden lions of the Alliance, the High King and his dogs to the heart of the Horde and you say they have more right to the people's trust.... Greymane is at the flank ready to strike while Thrall stands there ready to sack his own city at what can only be seen as teh request of the Alliance... Why else did the High King free Saurfang? No That is not the right way.

Could you be any more biased for Sylvanas and against Saurfang or anyone else who is against her? I don't really know, but I do know your post history. Even Sylvanas herself is less of an apologist for herself than you are.

You seem to view this as ONLY Sylvanas vs Saurfang (well the writers did too but that's besides the point)

They made everyone against Sylvanas immediately jump in bed with the Alliance. With Jaina. With Genn. And they made the case of Sylvanas' evil actions something outsiders assumed (never SHOWED the horde) and then had us reacting to figures in their outright hostile actions against the Horde for some poorly explained greater good. We weren't killing Zealot Sylvanas loyalists as described by their actions, we were killing horde troops standing their duty because we judged them lost.

Yes I'm biased Against Saurfang... I'm biased against any leader that willingly leaves their battlefield to seemingly parley with then enemy and brings said enemy to the city gates to fight.

[HoodKazekage]

I am going to bring this up since this apparently has and probably will not be addressed.

So we have the fight with Saurfang Vs Sylvanas. Personally their is more wrong with that entire cinematic, but I want to focus on a particular point.

In Orc culture and Horde tradition it is clearly stated you cannot under any circumstances use a magical weapon in a Makrok.

Saurfang took a weapon which had magical powers coursing through it and used it against Sylvanas.
Sylvanas used two daggers I guess you can call them.


For all purposes, Sylvanas was 100% in the right to use magic then since Saurfang shows he clearly gives no shit about the rules himself.

Not only is he a traitor, he is a hypocrite for using a dishonorable weapon in a honor duel.

Excuse me sir, I'd hate to pop your Sylvanas Fanboy bubble but she did use magical weapons, did you not see the shadow magic that came out of the blades...LOL