Saurfang broke the rules before Sylvanas did.

[Varitok]

What is it about Sylvanas that is making people go fucking insane in her defense? Christ, I have never seen this before. It's so edgy.

[Nefastus]

Gonna just call bullshit on this entire thing. We've seen many Mak'gora under many different circumstances and many different rulesets, both traditional and non. Suffice to say the only thing we can clearly state is that the rules of a Mak'gora are whatever the participants decide they are at the time.

I notice you did not, for example, call foul on the fact that neither participant was clad solely in a loincloth.

Hum, Sylvanas in loincloth... That rule should be enforced lol. Well back to the subject her daggers looked magical, just see the weird cuts they did in Saurfang.

[Mehrunes]

Because the narrative needed her to out herself. Her outburst wasn't planned, as Nathanos said being chased out was only an outcome she considered. I figured when was slashed, she thought: "Why am I even doing this, I don't care about being Warchief and I'll have my plan fulfilled either way." So she cut her attachments loose, since she didn't find value in keeping up the charade anymore.

Even though she could've had her cake and ate it too, she had to lose for the sake of Horde reunification and Saurfang's closure. It felt really abrupt and cheesy, even if I could understand the reasoning behind it. Concept was okay-ish, delivery fell flat. It's like how the burning of Teldrassil simply looks like she committed genocide, because she got triggered. Decent reasoning behind it, flat delivery that doesn't convey the intent.

How was the concept okay-ish when what you're describing is that Sylvanas did it because the plot required her to do so, making this whole concept a plot contrivance?

I think of it more as she basically felt like she was in zero danger and suddenly she's 0.5" from needing an eyepatch courtesy of a foe she clearly didn't consider a threat. More of an ego thing than a literal 'OH NOES MUH EYE' thing.

Everyone has their limit.

Which still doesn't address the fact that when she was fighting against Genn in the same trolling manner where she was flipping around him only to show off suddenly getting hit by him in the face didn't cause any such effect. Hell, even Genn fucking her plan, and with it her future, caused no such reaction from her. You're still special pleading here and haven't actually addressed @mickybrighteyes

Then again you likely won't see it because from what I've noticed you put me on ignore after I pointed out to you that you misrepresented a post of mine, which automatically robbed your counterargument to me of any validity (hell, I even mentioned that it actually plays into what I was saying), to which you responded with a "no u" about how my argument - that you didn't even know what it was to begin with vide the misrepresentation - wasn't a valid criticism of Blizzard, while pretending to have a moral high ground while you were "totally not defending Blizzard's writing" in accordance with your "totally not defensive" sig. But hey, that won't stop me from pointing out your special pleading to others.

Sylvanas is pretty far from "emotionless." Her entire pivot to torching Teldrassil is actually an emotional reaction to Delaryn's statement that she could not destroy hope - which is echoed in Saurfang's broadsides to her during the final part of their duel, that she failed to kill hope at Teldrassil, and failed again at Lordaeron, that she will fail again and again because the task she's set for herself is impossible. This incenses Sylvanas the same way Delayrn's faith did at Teldrassil, just enough for her to show her true face to the Horde at last and shatter the ties that bound them in loyalty to her. She leaves because despite her lofty pronouncements she's not a match for what's arrayed in front of her - she was more than a match for Saurfang but not so much for the armies before and now behind her. She hightails before they can turn against her in earnest.

Except for where it isn't, because as per A Good War Sylvanas realized Saurfang fucked up the plan and that she'll have to salvage it somehow before Delaryn even appeared on her radar as a thing that exists. Hell, even going by the earlier cinematic, the height of Sylvanas' emotion in her exchange with Delaryn was her making a smug smile. And even then her delivery that followed that smile was as aloof as the rest of her dialogue. Sylvanas only shows some irritation in that scene when she had to repeat herself to the Horde members that were focused in executing the earlier plan.

And the thing is, Saurfang knew that. He accepted blame for Malfurion's survival and the repercussions it'd have even before Delaryn scene. And then he accepted Sylvanas' calm explanation for it, just as he accepted all her explanations prior to that. Because he's full of shit. And it's not the only case. All of that "inspiring" dialogue of his was full of shit. Sylvanas did "make" the Horde and Alliance kill each other at Lordaeron. A handful of traitorous shits like him crawling to Anduin afterwards didn't alter that fact. And the majority of the Horde stood with Sylvanas and her war even when he was spouting that bullshit. And the rest of Sylvanas failures in the war were caused by people like him betraying the faction and sabotaging its war campaign, meaning it's all the Saurfangs in the world were to blame for that, not her.

And other than the whole thing being a plot contrivance because the plot required Sylvanas to go so that the Horde can be absorbed by the one true god Anduin, Lor'themar commented that the reason Sylvanas noped out of the plot when she did is because she no longer needs the Horde to achieve her goals. Making her, at least in the eyes of him and everyone who listened to him (as no one protested), a threat to the Horde even when on her own.

[Estravolt]

Saurfang didn't go for victory.

He went for Sylvanukses biggest weakness, her hatred towards everything living.

ps. Fucking told you Sylvanas was not loyal to the Horde

[J012D4N]

everyone should really be complaining we didn't get to see Saurfang and Sylvanas strip down to a loincloth.

This 100%.
Would also say it would've been MUCH better had the pre-combat conversations & impending melee just never took place (dialogue would've had to change some obv). Sylvanas should've just walked out the gates, said " I accept", blowing his ass away then and there. "My work here is done". Concluding with a " **** you guys, I'm going home " Cartman troll. Dissipation/flying off into the distance afterwards with Marry Poppins' umbrella ("spoon full of sugar" music ques).

[Aucald]

Except for where it isn't, because as per A Good War Sylvanas realized Saurfang fucked up the plan and that she'll have to salvage it somehow before Delaryn even appeared on her radar as a thing that exists. Hell, even going by the earlier cinematic, the height of Sylvanas' emotion in her exchange with Delaryn was her making a smug smile. And even then her delivery that followed that smile was as aloof as the rest of her dialogue. Sylvanas only shows some irritation in that scene when she had to repeat herself to the Horde members that were focused in executing the earlier plan.

"Some irritation" seems like a bit of an understatement in light of:


Suffice it to say that she definitely shows a reaction, and it's not necessarily a restrained one, or even what I label "irritation." There's also the notion that she burns down a city and commits mass-murder just to show Delaryn the futility of her claims, which is itself psychopathic in the extreme.

[Logwyn]

"Saurfang took a magical blade" guess you missed the entire fight where sylvannas had magic daggers with purple shit all over the place. Daggers she had on her and ready to use prior to saurfang being given a sword

Missed the magic purple swirl around her hands too.

[StaeleAilar]

I am going to bring this up since this apparently has and probably will not be addressed.

So we have the fight with Saurfang Vs Sylvanas. Personally their is more wrong with that entire cinematic, but I want to focus on a particular point.

In Orc culture and Horde tradition it is clearly stated you cannot under any circumstances use a magical weapon in a Makrok.

Saurfang took a weapon which had magical powers coursing through it and used it against Sylvanas.
Sylvanas used two daggers I guess you can call them.


For all purposes, Sylvanas was 100% in the right to use magic then since Saurfang shows he clearly gives no shit about the rules himself.

Not only is he a traitor, he is a hypocrite for using a dishonorable weapon in a honor duel.

sweety darling, she grabbed her enchanted daggers first.

Technically makgora isn't even supposed to have half of the armour either of them were wearing. It's sad to see Saurfang die, but i feel it needed to happen. Next is Sylvanas. Fact of the matter is that she cheated with her void infected weapons.

[Aucald]

Missed the magic purple swirl around her hands too.

I assume she was employing her new power to strengthen her vessel prior to the duel, there. To give her both the strength and endurance to counter Saurfang as effortlessly as she appeared to do.

[Rozz]

How was the concept okay-ish when what you're describing is that Sylvanas did it because the plot required her to do so, making this whole concept a plot contrivance?

The concept that Saurfang would take advantage of Sylvanas' own arrogance and have her leave of her own volition. It falls short, because he didn't put a believable amount of pressure on her to sell her choice. If Saurfang wanted to convince Sylvanas the charade was no longer worth it (and to expose her charade to others), seeing her actually backed into a corner would fair better. He could still die, but showing Sylvanas starting to crack leading up to that moment would make her outburst more believable. As is, it looks like a smug child who got slapped for the first time and fled despite having every advantage. Emotional and childish--which you can argue is Sylvanas' character, but I don't like how the devs claim she is otherwise then backtrack when such traits would give her an edge.

A good example of seeing the planted descent of a cunning character is Azula from ATLA.

[Aucald]

The concept that Saurfang would take advantage of Sylvanas' own arrogance and have her leave of her own volition. It falls short, because he didn't put a believable amount of pressure on her to sell her choice. If Saurfang wanted to convince Sylvanas the charade was no longer worth it (and to expose her charade to others), seeing her actually backed into a corner would fair better. He could still die, but showing Sylvanas starting to crack leading up to that moment would make her outburst more believable. As is, it looks like a smug child who got slapped for the first time and fled despite having every advantage. Emotional and childish--which you can argue is Sylvanas' character, but I don't like how the devs claim she is otherwise then backtrack when such traits would give her an edge.

A good example of seeing the planted descent of a cunning character is Azula from ATLA.

I think that is really the main issue I have with the conclusion of the War Campaign in the general sense - it just happens so abruptly that it's kind of mind-twisting in a way. The War Campaign quite literally goes from 60 to 0, full stop, and no one is wearing seatbelts. Sylvanas' heel-face turn from majority to no loyalty in the Horde is also effected by this in a negative sense - the denouement of the War Campaign is definitely not equal to its build-up.

Everyone's characterization suffers for this kind of knee-jerk execution of the story.

[Maljinwo]

Can we make a sticky thread abou Mak'gora rules?

This has become idiotic

Rules are defined by the combatants. Which means:
-No, Magic is not forbidden. The only duels without magic are those where there are 2 warriors fighting
-The one weapon rule is not always in place
-The clothing rule is also optional, as seen in various in-game duels as well as the Bloodsworn comic where Body Armor was forbidden but not clothing

What does this mean?
It means that if I yell "MAK'GORA!" to some dude and we just rush to each other, then there are no rules in place other than it being a duel for honor.

[bullseyed]

These were the rules for Cairne and Garrosh's Mak'gora:

One weapon was allowed.
A blessing of this weapon by a shaman of their choosing was permitted.
Both body armor and clothing were forbidden, only a loincloth was allowed.
Each participant had to have at least one witness.
The combat was to the death.

So obviously rather than the magical weapon concern, everyone should really be complaining we didn't get to see Saurfang and Sylvanas strip down to a loincloth.

Neither Sourfang nor Sylvanas participated in Cairne and Garrosh's Mak'gora though, so this has no relevance.

[Teph]

The worse part is, that Saurfang took a weapon he has NEVER used before to a life and death duel. Also dualwield > 1 weapon obviously

[Rozz]

Can we make a sticky thread abou Mak'gora rules?

This has become idiotic

Rules are defined by the combatants. Which means:
-No, Magic is not forbidden. The only duels without magic are those where there are 2 warriors fighting
-The one weapon rule is not always in place
-The clothing rule is also optional, as seen in various in-game duels as well as the Bloodsworn comic where Body Armor was forbidden but not clothing

What does this mean?
It means that if I yell "MAK'GORA!" to some dude and we just rush to each other, then there are no rules in place other than it being a duel for honor.

Generally we'd opt not to, since the rules on lore change drastically--as well as the canonity of an event/literature. For instance, we could make a sticky with common facts to refer to such as lineages/evolution--but there is no point when the information changes so often. Plus the rules of Mak'gora are so muddy, it's likely not best to claim any official call unless we personally worked for Blizzard. On that note, we don't want to diminish the merit of speculation and discussion murky lore brings.

[Maljinwo]

Generally we'd opt not to, since the rules on lore change drastically--as well as the canonity of an event/literature. For instance, we could make a sticky with common facts to refer to such as lineages/evolution--but there is no point when the information changes so often. Plus the rules of Mak'gora are so muddy, it's likely not best to claim any official call unless we personally worked for Blizzard. On that note, we don't want to diminish the merit of speculation and discussion murky lore brings.

Fair enough. I'll just copy and paste it on every Mak'gora discussion until Blizzard establishes and official ruleset for future duels

[melzas]

The worse part is, that Saurfang took a weapon he has NEVER used before to a life and death duel. Also dualwield > 1 weapon obviously

Well, Shalamabalama is supposed to be super duper extra spicy best weapon evah, so it makes sense he ditched whatever garbage random axe he had for it. And seeing how Saurfang is one of the most experienced warriors on Azeroth, weapon type or dw/1 weapon shouldn't make any difference for him either, he is most likely skilled in using any and every martial weapon he comes across

[Raven]

That's just what happens when a rogue uses sinister strike. Didn't you know?

Hey thats cheating, autoattacks only.

[tehdef]

Mak'gora without rules is a challenge from a non-leader to the leader in a fight to the death. The winner takes over leadership.

Specific fight rules can be decided beforehand, but in 2 of the 3 instances of Mak'gora, they were both spontaneous.

[WulfgarTheDane]

I am going to bring this up since this apparently has and probably will not be addressed.

So we have the fight with Saurfang Vs Sylvanas. Personally their is more wrong with that entire cinematic, but I want to focus on a particular point.

In Orc culture and Horde tradition it is clearly stated you cannot under any circumstances use a magical weapon in a Makrok.

Saurfang took a weapon which had magical powers coursing through it and used it against Sylvanas.
Sylvanas used two daggers I guess you can call them.


For all purposes, Sylvanas was 100% in the right to use magic then since Saurfang shows he clearly gives no shit about the rules himself.

Not only is he a traitor, he is a hypocrite for using a dishonorable weapon in a honor duel.

Is this meant to be a troll? It was easier to tell back on my day.