Could the Alliance and the rebels actually win?

[Felixon]

First of all, it's easier to defend than to attack the city,especially, if it's a fortified city such as Orgrimmar. I think,that Sylvanas knew about this attack and she was prepared for it - just like she was prepared to defend the Undercity. Even if Saurfang knew the weaknesses of it's defense,I highly doubt,that Sylvanas didn't know about these spots too and wouldn't prepare traps in there. Just imagine it's a siege of Undercity all over again - she has blight throwers, troopers prepared to spread it,she is capable to raise the fallen troops as undead under her control. Not even talking,that there would be dark rangers and assasins at every corner,ready to ambush the intruders.

On the other hand,we see a combined force of the survivors of war and a few Horde soldiers - it's clear,that very few joined Saurfang's cause. Also, as Anduin says himself, the casualties of the Alliance are so heavy,that they have enough soldiers only for the last push. Sounds like another contradicting bullshit, cause at the end of the battle for Zuldazar, the army of the Alliance is way stronger and victory is within it's grasp - the only explanation I see here,is that they have lost their fleet to Azshara,thus they suffered have losses in Nazjatar.

I think,that everything is written in a way,that if Saurfang wouldn't sacrifice himself and trigger the Sylvanas to show her true intentions and views,the Alliance and the rebels would most likely fail. It just seems,that Anduin simply doesn't learn from his mistakes - yet again he is attacking the Horde and I didn't see a single soldier with a gas mask on his face. I guess some people never learn. And,after all,if the things would be dire,I think,that Sylvanas would rather blight the Orgrimmar rather than raise a white flag.

[Raisei]

Well, by the end it is almost the entire Horde (except Tyrande and Malfurion) and almost the entire Horde (except the Forsaken and loyalists) against Sylvanas and her loyalists and Forsaken. That is quite the numbers advantage. We see Genn and others close the exits, so the city is definately under siege with no line out (the existance of flying mounts and mages not counting, probably there are things against that, like Azshara blocked Jaina from teleporting).

Orgrimmar has very strong walls, but I doubt against the combined power of Jaina, Thal'yssra and a ton of other mages and warlocks it would hold for long. If Jaina had used her ship she would likely have been able to take them down herself.

But you are correct, Sylvanas would have rather detonated a blight bomb in Orgrimmar then let Anduin win, destroying the place and ruining it for decades. Guess the fact this did not happen is another things the Horde should thank Saurfang for.

[Kwento]

Well, by the end it is almost the entire Horde (except Tyrande and Malfurion) and almost the entire Horde (except the Forsaken and loyalists) against Sylvanas and her loyalists and Forsaken. That is quite the numbers advantage. We see Genn and others close the exits, so the city is definately under siege with no line out (the existance of flying mounts and mages not counting, probably there are things against that, like Azshara blocked Jaina from teleporting).

Orgrimmar has very strong walls, but I doubt against the combined power of Jaina, Thal'yssra and a ton of other mages and warlocks it would hold for long. If Jaina had used her ship she would likely have been able to take them down herself.

But you are correct, Sylvanas would have rather detonated a blight bomb in Orgrimmar then let Anduin win, destroying the place and ruining it for decades. Guess the fact this did not happen is another things the Horde should thank Saurfang for.

It’s not “almost the entire Horde” though. Anduin even mentions that Saurfang’s forces are very few in one of the cinematics.

[Whitedragon]

Depends on how much power they are willing to ignore with the besieging army, trouble with trying to hold one spot is it makes it very easy to lob large amounts of damaging spells into it. past that its just siege towers blowing the walls to shreds until they are nothing but rubble.

[Life-Binder]

Alliance + a portion of the Horde > portion of the Horde


also how did SoO end ?

[Super Dickmann]

We're told that the rebels are 'so few', that the Alliance only have enough troops for this one attack and they're done and that the only army with a shot at N'zoth is the one Sylvanas has before the siege. I.e Horde > Rebels + Alliance.

Does this make a lick of sense given what we've seen before in this expansion? No. But given the numbers advantage, that the Horde has a defensible position and that Sylvanas can apparently death beam people at will which means that Jaina can't just stomp Orgrimmar singlehanded, I'd give it to the Horde.

Depending on how things go you could make a decent case that in that circumstance N'zoth wins, since both forces expend each other and Sylvanas is stuck fighting N'zoth with what's left of the Horde forces, without the ability to bail, because if she does, then there's no one to do her work for her.

[Flarelaine]

Win what, exactly?

[Aeula]

Depends on whether Blizzard want them to win (They do).

[Kaleredar]

First of all, it's easier to defend than to attack the city,especially, if it's a fortified city such as Orgrimmar. I think,that Sylvanas knew about this attack and she was prepared for it - just like she was prepared to defend the Undercity. Even if Saurfang knew the weaknesses of it's defense,I highly doubt,that Sylvanas didn't know about these spots too and wouldn't prepare traps in there. Just imagine it's a siege of Undercity all over again - she has blight throwers, troopers prepared to spread it,she is capable to raise the fallen troops as undead under her control. Not even talking,that there would be dark rangers and assasins at every corner,ready to ambush the intruders.

They lost Undercity and Orgrimmar was already invaded. And... frankly, Garrosh's defenses looked waaaay more formidable that Sylvanas'. Garrosh had the Iron Juggernaut and Galakras and old god empowered forces and giant dinosaurs and stuff. Sylvanas had... what... normal soldiers?

On the other hand,we see a combined force of the survivors of war and a few Horde soldiers - it's clear,that very few joined Saurfang's cause. Also, as Anduin says himself, the casualties of the Alliance are so heavy,that they have enough soldiers only for the last push. Sounds like another contradicting bullshit, cause at the end of the battle for Zuldazar, the army of the Alliance is way stronger and victory is within it's grasp - the only explanation I see here,is that they have lost their fleet to Azshara,thus they suffered have losses in Nazjatar.

Yeah, I feel like this was done to "even the odds" in the eyes of players. At no point in time are we ever shown the alliance "losing" any considerable number of forces. Hell, not even in nazjatar. A handful of warships plunge into the depths, but... that's it. I really fail to believe that "the large share of alliance forces" were on that ship. There was no protracted war event in between Dazar'alor, which the Alliance clearly won, and pretty handily, and the rebels rolling up to Orgrimmar's gate. So I have no clue where the "we're down to our last Alliance battalions" thing came from.

I think,that everything is written in a way,that if Saurfang wouldn't sacrifice himself and trigger the Sylvanas to show her true intentions and views,the Alliance and the rebels would most likely fail. It just seems,that Anduin simply doesn't learn from his mistakes - yet again he is attacking the Horde and I didn't see a single soldier with a gas mask on his face. I guess some people never learn. And,after all,if the things would be dire,I think,that Sylvanas would rather blight the Orgrimmar rather than raise a white flag.

Then they'd be down to what... Silvermoon, Thunderbluff, and Suramar as Horde cities?

All of whom are in opposition to Sylvanas?

[Kaleredar]

Azerite war machines? Possibly an Underhold full of blight bombs?

We've fought Azerite war machines up and down and destroyed them on the regular. And if Sylvanas wants to lose a third city, I mean... that's her prerogative, I guess. It's not like she'd have anywhere else to operate from if she destroyed Orgrimmar. That'd really turn the rest of the Horde against her.

[Super Dickmann]

We know that Sylvanas controls the airspace with azerite powered mechs and, while I haven't done the rebel side, in the loyalist one you plant bombs on the siege engines the Unifaction has outside, so it would be relatively easy to down the engines.

[Darknessvamp]

Let's be real as great as any of WoW's forts, castles and fortresses look they absolutely suck at aerial defence/resistance as shown in nearly every instance the introduction of aerial forces into an assault resulting in an overwhelming success. Since Jaina can levitate boats and infuse cannons with arcane cannonballs that automatically fire now, it was a little ridiculous to suggest that the Alliance and Rebels were in trouble.

Though I think this less an issue of the tactical knowledge of the leaders in WoW and more Blizzard writing stuff they think is cool and then forget about it later on when needing to explain why it didn't happen.

[Kaleredar]

Eh she could throw the Blight outside Orgrimmar to hit the army outside. Jaina could freeze the first wave. Can she freeze the second wave? What about the third?

I dunno, maybe?

Blight gets talked up as this huge, formidable weapon but it seems to be subverted (when the plot calls for it) without too much effort.

And more importantly, the rebels brought very few siege engines to Orgrimmar. That gate is not going down without siege engines, all they had to do was blow them up. In SoO what broke the gates down was Tyrande's glaive throwers marching unopposed.

The siege engines they had looked way more formidable than a few glaive throwers. Honestly, the forces they amassed were far more impressive than the forces that were tinking away at the gates in SoO.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's be real as great as any of WoW's forts, castles and fortresses look they absolutely suck at aerial defence/resistance as shown in nearly every instance the introduction of aerial forces into an assault resulting in an overwhelming success. Since Jaina can levitate boats and infuse cannons with arcane cannonballs that automatically fire now, it was a little ridiculous to suggest that the Alliance and Rebels were in trouble.

Though I think this less an issue of the tactical knowledge of the leaders in WoW and more Blizzard writing stuff they think is cool and then forget about it later on when needing to explain why it didn't happen.

To that note on "aerial superiority," where the hell is the Vindicaar? I'd think that a ship that was instrumental to and successfully besieged the main fortress of the burning legion would hold up pretty well against one measly city.

[wargone]

It’s not “almost the entire Horde” though. Anduin even mentions that Saurfang’s forces are very few in one of the cinematics.

yea.. i dont actually get that.. why is there SO few Alliance soldiers, and hundred of thousans of Horde soldiers..

BUT OT: easy, Lets call them the Rebels(both horde and alliance) - They have the strongest mages, jaina could probaly just do her whole ship thing agine, to bombard down a wall. Lore wise she is stupid powerfull.
Also, There are 2 very old and very angry night elves on the other flank of Ogrimmar, The oldest and most powerfull druid, and His lovely wife, the Ex high priess of Tyrande, now the physically imbodiment of a her godess Vengance and anger. Those two alone would be able to make devostating Attack from the rear.
This is just talking the "heroes" i dont get why there is only 6 alliance soldiers left and somehow the horde have not lost a single soldier in the entire BFA..
But, Lets not forget what the alliance do still have, The Dreanie, despite being forgotten DO still have a flying spaceship, with powerfull defensive and offensive powers, AND most broken of all, in a war, the ability to teleport Unites. With the use of the vindicaar, they could teleport Unites To where ever they would see Fitting.

[Super Dickmann]

Rebel & Alliance side, the bombs are found and disarmed and the techs send outside to place them killed.

Does that mean I'm canonically dead? That'd be a shame. But yeah, in that case it's back to square one. I'd still give it to the mechs in clearing the siege engines.

@wargone

Tyrande and Malf aren't there, since they reject the Unifaction (for now). The heaviest hitter there is Jaina, and between her and Sylvanas it's a cowboy fight. From what we've seen Jaina is still more powerful, but Jaina can't sense and doesn't know that Sylvanas has that death beam power. So if Sylvanas can shoot her down, then that's the heaviest hitter on the attacking side cleared out.

Of course, were the Vindicaar there it'd be a different story but we're all collectively pretending it doesn't exist.

[Super Dickmann]

You never see them blow up as a loyalist. You do disarm them as a Rebel/Alliance. It makes absolutely no sense to assume the former is canon given that the two are not mutually exclusive and there is a clear timeline.

Nah, I'm not saying they don't hold together. I'm actually happy with the rebel/loyalist stuff in this patch. The lines are a bit tacky, but then that's not reserved for loyalists. We had that bit with Thrall in the Underhold where he asks you if you want to help the Alliance and your options were "Yes!", "Yes." and "No, except yes." after all.

Having done only one side and read about the other I just figured they were never deployed because the Mak'gora occurred before a real fight could break out.

[wargone]

@wargone

Tyrande and Malf aren't there, since they reject the Unifaction (for now). The heaviest hitter there is Jaina, and between her and Sylvanas it's a cowboy fight. From what we've seen Jaina is still more powerful, but Jaina can't sense and doesn't know that Sylvanas has that death beam power. So if Sylvanas can shoot her down, then that's the heaviest hitter on the attacking side cleared out.

Of course, were the Vindicaar there it'd be a different story but we're all collectively pretending it doesn't exist.

oh i know. The yare not there because of the Unifaction.. But. You know.. it dont REALLY make sense, I feel like they are angry enough to show up IF not JUST to murder the horde.
The only real fucking reason, they are not there, is because it would ruinen the whole Cinematic with How they all are holding hands and singing Kumpaja.
also. They dont even have to attack from the duratan side.. The Ashenvale side is Much Less defended... and much closer to where they would strike.

[rogueMatthias]

You're already putting more thought into this than ANYONE at Blizzard has done.

So, originally, some Orcs escaped from internment camps, teamed up with some leftovers Trolls, undead and Tauren - all on the end of extinction and a few goblins who escaped a volcanoe. They were at that point, apparently already a powerful and even match for the ENTIRE Alliance - all the human kingdoms, elves Dwarves everyone put together.

THEN MOP happened, and the horde had a civil war.. HALF the Horde side, plus the ENTIRE Alliance side, together were needed beat one HALF of the Horde, because Alliance suck so much they can't even take Half the Horde, let alone all of it.

So THEN, even after half the Horde loyal to Garrosh were gone, and Alliance were still neck and neck with the Horde (despite now having got rid of half of them), and the Alliance were getting beaten until the edge of defeat until the end of the war campaign.

So THEN the "rebels" all broke away from Sylvanas leaving all those loyal to her.. and the Alliance STILL can't bloody beat the Horde I'm pretty sure at this point there could canonically just be 10 members of the Horde and Alliance still couldn't beat them.

My head cannon is that Orcs and Trolls mature fully to adulthood in about 9 months. Goblins breed like rabbits and mature to adulthood in about 2 months. It's the only way to explain the population numbers on the Horde side.

[Mehrunes]

Logically? Not in the slightest. With Alliance's plot armor that negates all sense when it comes to matters of war? Absolutely.

On the other hand,we see a combined force of the survivors of war and a few Horde soldiers - it's clear,that very few joined Saurfang's cause. Also, as Anduin says himself, the casualties of the Alliance are so heavy,that they have enough soldiers only for the last push. Sounds like another contradicting bullshit, cause at the end of the battle for Zuldazar, the army of the Alliance is way stronger and victory is within it's grasp - the only explanation I see here,is that they have lost their fleet to Azshara,thus they suffered have losses in Nazjatar.

Alliance had to conscript peasants even before Zuldazar.

[Every Pwny]

No, they still didn't have a way to combat the plague, if sylvanas just launched some into that army it would have been over. She for some reason just flew away instead.