Will the Forsaken die out?

[Destinas]

Story-wise, the Forsaken always have the threat of dying out, since that was part of the point of Sylvanas' whole speech to Garrosh in Silverpine in Cata. And even though they've bolstered their forces a bit with the Kul Tirans in BfA, there is still that threat without Forsaken being created en masse.

However, for gameplay they must always be around, since they're a playable race. So the story will be written to accommodate that.

[Jastall]

Is there something wrong with the Forsaken dying out?

From the perspective of everyone else, not really no. Their existence sucks ass, they are almost universally assholes, their priorities and needs are generally incompatible with the living, beyond the rest of the Horde needing them for pragmatic reasons I struggle to see a reason why anyone else would shed even a single tear if the bags of bones stopped making a nuisance of themselves.

As to why the Forsaken themselves would desire a continuation of the race... well I suppose some like their unlife, bleak as it is, and a stronger Forsaken nation means its individual members are stronger, safer, less likely to be dominated by some necromancer or burned just for existing by some Scarlet Crusade type. I still think it's hypocritical at best, and cruel at worst to want to raise new Forsaken when you know it's such a wretched fucking existence. But we're told that most of them followed Sylvanas's viewpoint that the Forsaken must expand and grow stronger. But then Sylvanas says they don't follow her teachings in the loyalist cinematic, so I don't know anymore.

Then again, on top of a new way to secure recruits they also need to find a new leader and a new home. I suspect there's plenty in store for the Forsaken, since unlike the Darkspear the writers usually don't ignore them.

[Heldamon]

No. Derek and Caila will have a baby corpse.

Actually this. They will find out that lightforged undeads can reproduce

[Ersula]

TBH its such a lorefuck that Sylvanas was able to raise undead while being in the Horde with the Tauren. It goes completely opposite of nature.

Lor'themar isn't the most consistently characterized character but while he is all disgusted by undeath, or anyone's characterization really: Baine encourages Sylvanas raising the fallen during the Seige of Orgrimmar raid. The undead are just as valid as a form of life, nature-based healing still works on them even if the Dark Rangers lost the ability to cast nature magic after being raised.

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Actually this. They will find out that lightforged undeads can reproduce

There have been a lot of asspulls this expansion, but I think Lightforged undead was the biggest. A Naaru raises a human & it results in a mutation? (Ghoul's aren't just undead, but a superhuman mutation designed by Nerzul deliberately) and no one felt the need for an explanation for that??

I guess, it's because the Naaru who raised her was itself, undead, as they were corrupted into a void lord & then cleansed back to its holy form. Oh damn, I rationalized it

[cocomen2]

Some characters broke blood oath 2 times (Lor'themar) = its OKay
Some character rised dead bodies of fallen anyway taurens = OMAY GAWD WHATH SHE DOING.

[Ersula]

Speaking of Moral Relativity, We're closer to playable Naga now more than ever: Mechagnomes shows that gear doesn't need to show up on your character, so Naga can equip boots. It's fine. I'm sure Naga can reproduce.

[Shield Wall]

The Forsaken have died out in Warcraft 3. They are undead. They are not a race. Even creating new undead wouldn't mean that the Forsaken are passing on their genes, because the dead they'd be raising wouldn't necessarily be related, and even if they were, those couldn't procreate either.

The Forsaken aren't actually a race. Being undead is a condition. Talking about the Forsaken dying out makes as much sense as it would talking about zombies dying out, if we had those in the real world.

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Speaking of Moral Relativity, We're closer to playable Naga now more than ever: Mechagnomes shows that gear doesn't need to show up on your character, so Naga can equip boots. It's fine. I'm sure Naga can reproduce.

Well we knew that before, because we were always able to hide the helmet and cloak slot, and have been able to hide more and more slots recently, including even chest. The thing with the missing legs has never actually been a problem for Naga, it's just one of those pretend problems the community has come up with. Like we can't have demon hunters cause warlocks have metamorphosis. Or my favourite "we won't ever get monks and demon hunters cause diablo 3 already has them".

[Raisei]

Most Forsaken hate their existence, describing it as cold, dark, cut from emotions and so on. At several times it was Sylvanas alone who wanted the Forsaken to live eternally (well, mostly herself ofc), while several of her subjects would have welcomed their final death.

At the same time they have no problem raising others into this existence... not to mention their complete lack of morals and enjoyment in spreading chemical weapons wherever they feel...

Frankly since most of the decent Forsaken were killed by Sylvanas herself, I am not sure the Horde should accept these guys anymore. If Calia doesn't turn them around 180 degrees I just cannot see how we can accept them making more of these or even letting them exist at all. Not a question of what they are really, but who they are.

If they wish to be basically intelligent Scourge that wants to kill all lifeforms on Azeroth Sylvanas-style then they are no better then the Burning Legion or the Old Gods and should be wiped out.

[Eucep]

I think if the next expansion is indeed death themed, we are likely going to get an answer then.

But my speculation goes either with the Forsaken being reinforced with freed scourge.

Or, the forsaken get necromancers. Not to raise new ones, but to maintain the current ones. One obvious thing from that piece where Nathanos gets his new body is that his problem was wide spread, the current forsaken are literally falling appart. I think if they get a cadre of necromancers they can restore bodies and revitalize already passed on forsaken who want to continue. Now while most at the moment are likely wanting to pass on, if there is a way to lessen their physical woes a lot, there might be way more who do not yet want to die their final death.

If Tinkerer class gets added, there might even be an option of mechanical restored forsaken rather then done by fleshgrafting.

[Travace]

The undead state is fragile, currently undead live in numbness, they have a higher threshold for pain and things have less emotional weight. An Undead priest is pretty much unheard of, as far as I recall the light has abandoned the undead in lore completely.

The necromantic energies keeping them together wane over time driving them to insanity and Undead fall apart and have pieces of other undead attached to them in order to stay whole.

To my knowledge, Sylv has not found a way to save the current undead population, the Valk have only given her a way to create more undead.

The interesting thing about Calia is, I remember reading that when an Undead is healed with light magic they briefly lose the numbness and can feel themselves rotting. I would imagine that if any of the current undead population receive a light infusion it would be very uncomfortable process.

[Kyphael]

Lore-wise, they should have all lain down to rest at long last after Arthas was put down. But because of game play reasons, they need to continue their agonized, unholy existence to justify how player Undead are still around. That means the next story progression for them is finding a cure for Undeath, which I hope Blizzard does.

[Powerogue]

A very good point. There's very few val'kyr left, and they're loyal to Sylvanas last we checked.

The forsaken aren't in a good spot right now, it's all about where they take it from here. Something tells me it won't be as simple as "Calia takes over, can rez forsaken of her own power, but the forsaken are good now, so it's k."

[Daedius]

They can't procreate, obviously. And they'll eventually wither away. They ain't exactly a race, but dead humans.

[mickybrighteyes]

Lore-wise, they should have all lain down to rest at long last after Arthas was put down.

I don't think that's the case at all, but you can think what you like

But because of game play reasons, they need to continue their agonized, unholy existence to justify how player Undead are still around. That means the next story progression for them is finding a cure for Undeath, which I hope Blizzard does.

This assumes a bias that views their existence as entirely a negative. This seems to be a common bias on this one specific altered species that is never seen for the likes of Highmountain tauren (altered via life magic), Dark Iron Dwarves (altered via Flame), Ren'dorei (altered via Void), or other species that are literally spawned via corruption (dwarves/humans/gnomes fall into this category).

[Traveler Voltin]

Lore-wise, they should have all lain down to rest at long last after Arthas was put down. But because of game play reasons, they need to continue their agonized, unholy existence to justify how player Undead are still around. That means the next story progression for them is finding a cure for Undeath, which I hope Blizzard does.

you are a sad hateful person

Infracted.

[Kyphael]

I don't think that's the case at all, but you can think what you like



This assumes a bias that views their existence as entirely a negative. This seems to be a common bias on this one specific altered species that is never seen for the likes of Highmountain tauren (altered via life magic), Dark Iron Dwarves (altered via Flame), Ren'dorei (altered via Void), or other species that are literally spawned via corruption (dwarves/humans/gnomes fall into this category).

The only difference being the aforementioned races aren't self-admittedly in pain, whereas Undeath has been seen as an unnatural, traumatic and agonized existence with damning repercussions in the afterlife. A case could perhaps be made for Void Elves, but that could also be interpreted as not succumbing to madness whereas they are not physically in pain due to their very existence.

[mickybrighteyes]

The only difference being the aforementioned races aren't self-admittedly in pain, whereas Undeath has been seen as an unnatural, traumatic and agonized existence with damning repercussions in the afterlife. A case could perhaps be made for Void Elves, but that could also be interpreted as not succumbing to madness whereas they are not physically in pain due to their very existence.

Magical intervention is NEVER natural. Curse of flesh corrupting titan creations but we learn this and aren't expected to 'cure' the corruption. As for undeath's pain due to simple existence... that is about as consistent as their biological/physical limitations and hardiness... but lets leave bias where the authors take their liberties.

Ren'dorei and Worgen are almost mirror image examples to some of the issues forsaken have to deal with in that they were forcibly thrown into their states due to circumstances beyond their control and can be seen as abominations by their peers due to this barely understood/contained trait. But again we don't see Worgen as irredeemable monsters and likewise very few seem bothered by the fact that Rendorei are literally crazed beings of the void... but forsaken MUST be condemned to destruction because they are a special kind of altered being. Forsaken MUST be cured. There are literally NO redeemable or beneficial traits to their condition whatsoever.

Oh and lets go ahead and revere basically every other example of death counteracting effects to ever be showcased.

[Kyphael]

Magical intervention is NEVER natural. Curse of flesh corrupting titan creations but we learn this and aren't expected to 'cure' the corruption. As for undeath's pain due to simple existence... that is about as consistent as their biological/physical limitations and hardiness... but lets leave bias where the authors take their liberties.

Ren'dorei and Worgen are almost mirror image examples to some of the issues forsaken have to deal with in that they were forcibly thrown into their states due to circumstances beyond their control and can be seen as abominations by their peers due to this barely understood/contained trait. But again we don't see Worgen as irredeemable monsters and likewise very few seem bothered by the fact that Rendorei are literally crazed beings of the void... but forsaken MUST be condemned to destruction because they are a special kind of altered being. Forsaken MUST be cured. There are literally NO redeemable or beneficial traits to their condition whatsoever.

Oh and lets go ahead and revere basically every other example of death counteracting effects to ever be showcased.

It may seem like I'm splitting hairs here... but if Death exists outside the natural cycle of EXISTENCE and the accompanying cosmic forces, doesn't it therefore make it unnatural? I concede to your point that Forsaken are no more in continuous mental anguish and pain than Void Elves and Worgen, you make a good point.

A case can still be made however, that Undead as a race, are the only ones with no future that doesn't involve continuous abuse of the natural order through necromancy to raise "new undead." For example, Void Elves and Worgen are still corrupted and cursed, but they exist within the natural order of things. They still need to breath, drink, and eat to live. They can still pro-create and continue as a species where Undead are not... really a species, or race by anything but game term. It's a state of being, an unnatural one that cannot be continued on its own without persistent meddling with dark powers that defiles both the land and other living organisms around it.

If existence is defined by the fundamental necessities like eating, drinking, sleeping, and pro-creating, fitting into that ecosystem of the inhabiting planet, what purpose do Undead/zombies/Forsaken fulfill just... being? Outside of meat shields in a war against say, The Lich King, they really possess no other purpose. Void Elves may be on the brink of madness, but aren't there yet, so they could be described as no different than a mental patient struggling with sanity, while Worgen in their feral form, really aren't that different than actual wolves in the wild who eat, drink, sleep, and mate. The duality of a man who can turn into a wolf introduces a new dynamic to that being, but it's still a living being that fits within that planet's natural order. Metaphorically-speaking, a Worgen is no different than a wild man raised in the wild away from civilization, a Tarzan if you will. Maybe the curse makes them a little more bloodthirsty, but how bloodthirsty a species may be is open to interpretation.

[Sondrelk]

I would think Zelling gave a nice view of how Forsaken making peace with the Alliance would allow them to continue their existence, there are presumably many humans who are close to death from causes that cannot be done anything about, but if the Forsaken are a known entity they can communicate with then the Foraken race can live on as a oddly benevolent version of hte cult of the damned, where humans who for some reason or another cannot go on as a living human choose death and ressurection to stay alive.
If Bolvar goes rogue as has been foreshadowed for a while now then the Forsaken could get a fresh influx of new members from freeing the corpses still in the serrvice of the lich king, either from before or newly raised.


We will see what happens at the end of BfA and next expansion if we get a world revamp. If not then i wouldimagine Blizzard intends to never mention it again, given the timeframe of the game the Forsaken would not go extinct, or even massively diminish before the story of WoW ends anyways.

[omeomorfismo]

It may seem like I'm splitting hairs here... but if Death exists outside the natural cycle of EXISTENCE and the accompanying cosmic forces, doesn't it therefore make it unnatural? I concede to your point that Forsaken are no more in continuous mental anguish and pain than Void Elves and Worgen, you make a good point.

A case can still be made however, that Undead as a race, are the only ones with no future that doesn't involve continuous abuse of the natural order through necromancy to raise "new undead." For example, Void Elves and Worgen are still corrupted and cursed, but they exist within the natural order of things. They still need to breath, drink, and eat to live. They can still pro-create and continue as a species where Undead are not... really a species, or race by anything but game term. It's a state of being, an unnatural one that cannot be continued on its own without persistent meddling with dark powers that defiles both the land and other living organisms around it.

If existence is defined by the fundamental necessities like eating, drinking, sleeping, and pro-creating, fitting into that ecosystem of the inhabiting planet, what purpose do Undead/zombies/Forsaken fulfill just... being? Outside of meat shields in a war against say, The Lich King, they really possess no other purpose. Void Elves may be on the brink of madness, but aren't there yet, so they could be described as no different than a mental patient struggling with sanity, while Worgen in their feral form, really aren't that different than actual wolves in the wild who eat, drink, sleep, and mate. The duality of a man who can turn into a wolf introduces a new dynamic to that being, but it's still a living being that fits within that planet's natural order. Metaphorically-speaking, a Worgen is no different than a wild man raised in the wild away from civilization, a Tarzan if you will. Maybe the curse makes them a little more bloodthirsty, but how bloodthirsty a species may be is open to interpretation.

actually, by logic, undeads are more "natural" than worgen. i mean, considering that both start from void corrupted beings with their "natural order" being metallic slave automatons for arcane beings.
undeads are basically a parassite specie, where they take other beings and ress them as themself. meanwhile being worgen is really only a curse, they cant really procreate, their offspring is their base form.

basically undeads are unnatural only because "they" said so and they are outside of life and death, but for our "realistic" biology they are simply heavily different form of life