Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[PrairieChicken]

They tried to solve problem that never existed.

[Relapses]

..... I specifically said "wanted to use staves" I know they can use MH/OH.

The issue is that each weapon TYPE that a class can use has it's own ilvl loot lock. If you are a warrior who, for example, happened to have polearms that were 430.. and then you do the Nazjatar world boss and the 2H sword drops but it is only 420. YOU CAN'T TRADE the 420 because it is sword not polearm. THAT is the problem.

My apologies, I assumed you might be talking about a different situation other than the issue which has been discussed frequently throughout the 22-page thread. (Just giving you the benefit of the doubt since you did start your post off with, "something I haven't seen mentioned in this 22-page thread.")

I also wanted to clarify because I haven't played my own Mage since WoD and who the fuck knows with today's devs. :shrug:

[MoanaLisa]

I think they really ought to loosen up the rules on trading. Other than that personal loot is OK.

[kamuimac]

Im sorry to break it to you, but you are the vocal minority here.

Load of bullshit claiming that everyone only abused master-looter, pulling stuff out of your arse now.

its not surprising that forums that is gathering the most toxic element from game is also enviroment where normal people are minority

but for blizzard and majority of playerbase it was extremly good change as you lot simply dont have tools to abuse people anymore.

[klaps_05]

If we are sticking with PL, it would be great if they clarify how exactly loot and coins work. In the first 3 weeks of heroic EPs, I looted a cloak, coin and offhand and coined a cloak, ring and legs. In 6 weeks of looting and coining Azshara heroic I have only seen so far a trinket.

I cant imagine if a casual player only wants a certain item off a boss how long this potentially might take them. I would like them to replace coins with a fixed currency per boss kill which you can use later to buy a specific item or +15/+socket upgrade for an item and maybe put it low prio on your loot table once you have it? Currently its just way too random.

[Garymorilix]

If we are sticking with PL, it would be great if they clarify how exactly loot and coins work. In the first 3 weeks of heroic EPs, I looted a cloak, coin and offhand and coined a cloak, ring and legs. In 6 weeks of looting and coining Azshara heroic I have only seen so far a trinket.

I cant imagine if a casual player only wants a certain item off a boss how long this potentially might take them. I would like them to replace coins with a fixed currency per boss kill which you can use later to buy a specific item or +15/+socket upgrade for an item and maybe put it low prio on your loot table once you have it? Currently its just way too random.

What does that mean that "currently it's way too random"?

Raids always dropped gear randomly, regardless of what loot distribution system you used. This has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

- - - Updated - - -

22 pages of debate and I am not seeing conversation about the Elephant in the room regarding forced PL.

Cliff notes version:

If I play a Mage, and I only use staves. Like, no matter what, I only want to use staves. Now, let's say we killed a boss that drops a caster 1H sword. My Staff may be 5, 10, 15 etc ilvl HIGHER than the 1H sword. BBUUTTT.. because I never had a caster 1H sword of THAT particular ilvl... I CANNOT TRADE IT.

Now, I have an item with literally ZERO benefit, going to vendor or DE, that could have been an upgrade (it actually happened in our raid and someone lost out on a 35 ilvl upgrade over this shit).

Now, if blizzard wanted to fix this bullshit by changing the conditions of ilvl loot locking, then I could be more amenable to permanent PL. But as of right now (and since the beginning of BFA) it has been an absolute failure.

- Former Raid Officer speaking.

What kind of argument even is this? You REFUSE to use a certain type of weapon and somehow that's Blizzard's fault? Wowzerz.

[Magnosh]

In my experience due to the ''personal loot only'' players tend to feel less invested and lose the mentality that makes a guild and turn it into an organized pug instead. Ranks in guilds? What is that for? Jimmy the trial can come in and get 4 items in his first raid and then ''sorry can't trade'', next raid Jimmy the trial doesn't show up because he got the loot he needed already and can now apply to a higher progression guild.

Personal loot only in Pugs made sense, in Raid groups is a disaster. I got into issues that I couldn't trade especific trinkets for no reason, like the first time my Brewmaster got the Aszhara trinket and I couldn't trade it despite having other 430 trinkets, made a ticket and the support claimed you can only trade stuff that is lower item level than you have equipped, same item level can't be traded...

[This One Time At Bandcamp]

I was very skeptical at first, when they introduced it - But now I quite like it.

As a RL: We had a much easier time distributing loot and people were more happy on others behalf (Also because they knew if the item dropped again, they would most likely get it traded)
I can imagine it being a nuisance in top 100 guilds though, where you want to funnel gear to certain classes and spec tho.

As a Raider: I started pugging a lot lately, and PL is SO much better.. Before people would make premades to boost a friend and just give people the loot and kick whomever complained.. You still see it, but not as much. (I have been kicked because I won a /roll over the RL)

[Polarthief]

To GMs and Raid Leaders:
- Is Personal Loot helping you with player retention by reducing loot drama?
- Or is it making player retention harder since players are no longer invested in sticking around in the guild once they are loot capped?

To Raiders:
- Has personal loot helped your raiding experience by reducing loot drama?
- Do you feel interested in staying with a guild once the guild hits a major road block or do you just move on to higher progression guild for easier loot drops?

As an Officer/RL of my guild for the first 2 tiers: It didn't do anything but cause issues with people "unable to trade" items despite RCL saying that could, so if anything, it's only caused *more* drama.

As a Raider/half-Officer this tier: Still the same when I was an Officer.

Forced Personal for organized raiding was one of the worst mistakes imaginable.

[Scrysis]

Hate personal loot for raids. Our guildmaster loves it though, because he's allowed to be lazy.


With master loot, we had the odd, but functioning system where the entire raid team voted to have our guild leader be a loot council of one. Smart guy, knows that screwing people out of gear screws himself and progress, and everyone else knows that too. Absolutely ZERO loot problems.


Now with personal loot, there's random confusion over things that should be tradeable, and aren't. Or something that's isn't going to be used because it has the wrong stats, but can't be traded to someone that it would be a huge upgrade for because it hits the 5 ilevel mark. Or is bugged.

[Trbn]

Few problems with your false logic. Comparing a job to this is beyond bad. You still get paid for doing a job, regardless of being in a probationary period. Though, more to my point that you ignored, recruits don't need to be tested for a two weeks. They don't even need to be tested for a week. If you honestly have no idea how they perform or their capabilities beyond the first raid, then you just suck as a raid leader. Keeping them around and saying "well, no loot while in trial" is nothing short of stupidity. You don't keep around dead weight. Drop them and move on. PL just ensures you can't string them along for whatever reason and that they'll at least get loot.

The other issue is that no, they did not have bullies in vanilla. They always have taken that very seriously. People who did anything bad were black listed on a server from raiding by the community. Blizzard still stepped in to resolve issues and get loot to the right person. The only one who would feel that the game was better with more people being jerks is one of the jerks themselves.

That leaves one question, do you actually have an argument or a counter point, or are you just one of those who want to be offended by everything? PL is better. It has saved the pug scene and made it a more enjoyable experience. It has helped eliminate every loot issue other then people wanting to be loot hogs and qqing about not being able to force someone else to give them loot like some entitled child.

you just wrote bunch of nonsence thoughts which I don't want to waste my time replying since I already to the same arguments.

but you don't bother thinking and reading

[Jowany]

When they removed ML they removed tool for RL or guild lead how to keep raiders raiding and motivated. With for example DKP you could punish players for failing, not being ready, missing without notice etc.. and they would be careful to not lose DKP and you could reward with good attendance.
Removing ML was big mistake.. ML only for full guild raid was be nice. As a ex-officer I missed DKP/EPGP to have lever on them. We had problems with attendance, many players was *accepted* in calendar and they didnt come without any word and we hadnt enough players for mythic. Or one player was failing 4 ID's one abillity and you can just yell on him, nothing more and he was still failing.. A lot of players are playing for loot today and when you have power, you can choose who will get item, they will be more careful and more responsible.

[LorDC]

I think they really ought to loosen up the rules on trading. Other than that personal loot is OK.

PL being restrictive is the reason why it works: no one can force you trade or shame you for not trading if game does not allow it.
Loosening the rules up will break it.
What is needed is loot rebalance: make sockets bump item level, make warforging go in 15 ilvl increments instead of 5, make primary stats much more useful. That way item level will in become an upgrade most of the time thus removing a lot of situations where you don't need something yet can not trade it.

[LanToaster]

That would probably create a bad situation for the greatest part of the community which is pugs.
As soon as you give the option to "agree on what the leader said" you will be forced to go with a particular option (probably master looter) and otherwise you won't be accepted into any run. Because people are bastard's it would probably be ML and the ML will distribute everything to his mates.

Maybe if the entire group can vote for one of these rulesets...so democracy decides which ruleset will be chosen...maybe

The Problem, and the Drama from MasterLoot is, when the "Rules" are not made clear Prior to the run.
E.g. Back when I did ML runs, I used to think its common that you would pass on items if you already got one. But if people think differently it invites Drama if those Rules are not made clear beforehand.

If the Rules of the Raid state: "The RaidLead alone Decides who gets which item", you dont need to join. People might be Dicks, but if you can see Upfront that the are Dicks, its your Decision not to join them.
With Personal Loot you can still be "Forced" or "Bullied" into trading stuff you dont want to trade. My Idea, is mainly to get everyone on the same page, and make it Clear which rules to follow.

Also, clear no to the Democracy. Try using democracy in a Pug on something completely irrelevant like Boss Strats, and you wont pull the boss in the next half hour because everyone wants something different. And then you want it on Loot Rules? Thats never going to happen. Also, you would still be forced into whatever LootRule you dont want if the Majority are Dicks.

As an Officer/RL of my guild for the first 2 tiers: It didn't do anything but cause issues with people "unable to trade" items despite RCL saying that could, so if anything, it's only caused *more* drama.

As a Raider/half-Officer this tier: Still the same when I was an Officer.

Forced Personal for organized raiding was one of the worst mistakes imaginable.

That sounds like source of the Drama was not PL, but your own Addon(s) to be Honest.

[Aliven]

No it wasn't. If it was the game would have died long before they pointlessly removed ML.

Why died? There was a problem who was getting more and more serious so they took actions.

Its funny because "pro" raiders always preach how they dont raid for loot but for social aspects/challenge/etc bullshit

[Rendark]

Why died? There was a problem who was getting more and more serious so they took actions.

Its funny because "pro" raiders always preach how they dont raid for loot but for social aspects/challenge/etc bullshit

Anyone who says they don't care about loot is full of shit and you don't have to be a pro to like master loot.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Any feature that allows for abuse and exploitation is not perfectly fine. EVER.

What makes a feature perfectly fine is if it does it's intended job perfectly. If the game had to remove everything that's not perfectly fine according to your definition then we would not even have a game at all.

- - - Updated - - -

You still have yet to disprove that ML was a problem Blizzard has the data.. you don't.

/mic

The only data they have is that the players are the problem. ML does not mind control people or give loot to different people than who the masterlooter decided to give it to. So the feature does its job, the players don't.

Explained many times before, I have no idea why you would make a post just to say something that is the opposite of reality. Pick that mic up and stop shaking so it will stop slipping out of your frail hands.

[Cosmic Janitor]

They tried to solve problem that never existed.

That is not entirely true. Cesspool guilds exist, plenty of them actually. They just usually don't raid mythic. If they had wanted to fix the actual issue (instead of just stretching out traditional loot progoression for the bulk of the playerbase) then they should have just restricted ML to guilds on mythic raid mode, maybe heroic and force it for normal and below as well as PUGs. Their fix though just killed it for everyone, which means all upper mid tier guilds got screwed. World rank brute forces their way through with overgeared alts, but that doesn't help the people in the lower ranks.

[Eosia]

The only data they have is that the players are the problem. ML does not mind control people or give loot to different people than who the masterlooter decided to give it to. So the feature does its job, the players don't.

Explained many times before, I have no idea why you would make a post just to say something that is the opposite of reality. Pick that mic up and stop shaking so it will stop slipping out of your frail hands.

And you fail to provide ANY data contrary. Empirical Data > Rationalization.

Sorry 'bout it@

[Cosmic Janitor]

PL being restrictive is the reason why it works: no one can force you trade or shame you for not trading if game does not allow it.
Loosening the rules up will break it.
What is needed is loot rebalance: make sockets bump item level, make warforging go in 15 ilvl increments instead of 5, make primary stats much more useful. That way item level will in become an upgrade most of the time thus removing a lot of situations where you don't need something yet can not trade it.

This is actually a very good idea. Sockets should definitely be reflected on the ILvl.