Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[Garymorilix]

As i said, they've been doing that since WoD, it wasn't tied to the Template system of Legion in any shape or form.



Are you playing WoW?
Like, do an M+0, you'll find out that for some reason, you'll get one item per instance on average.
On average, you'll also get like 3 items per EP clear.
Sometimes you may get four, sometimes you get 3 and *very rarely* you'll get two items from two consecutive bosses.

It uses the same system as coins, the fact that you even seriously question this is baffling.



Personal loot has a hard rule regarding trading based on Ilvl.
Titanforging affects Ilvl.

Conclusion: Titanforging affects PL based on the trading option.

To test this: Without PL, the described issue above would not occur.



How many 455 you have is irrelevant.
By the way, the M+ weekly chest is utterly irrelevant to this discussion because said loot was never group based to begin with.



Go ahead, do that.
Want to know what will follow?
Drama.

What was PL supposed to avoid?
Drama.



You're wrong.
ML is that the ML decides who gets loot, that's the fundamental function of the system.
You don't "own" an item until you receive it, that's ML.
PL however, you have to give up an item that you already received, that is "your item" after all, you looted it.

PL and its trading rules however, randomnly distribute loot, then you'll have to redistribute loot based on these trade restriction.

The fact you cannot see your hypocrisy within this argument is utterly baffling.

PL_does_not_protect_you from this social pressure unless you cannot trade the item (which is random due to Titanforging), if your guild agrees that they will trade loot based on value, you'll abide by this system or have drama on your hands (which is identical to the decision to use ML).
The sole difference will that you have the item in inventory, but you still get drama on your hands.

And if your guild was going to decide not to use PL but go with a random loot system to begin, you could just use Group Loot.

A lot of Guilds that previously used ML, now function under a restricted ML based on the PL trade rules.
What an improvement.

You are arguing about the working system based on your guild's peer pressure loot give-up bullshit.

You create your own drama. If you just use the system as its intended, no drama will happen.

Stop blaming the system because you exploit your own guys. Thanks.

[Miseration]

At least with personal loot nothing is getting ninja'd... Just RNG

[Kralljin]

You create your own drama. If you just use the system as its intended, no drama will happen.

The ability to trade items is an intended function of the system.
If you want argue that one shouldn't be able to trade items under any circumstance, go ahead, but just causes more trouble that require more solutions with their own flaws.

Stop blaming the system because you exploit your own guys. Thanks.

Without given context, that statement could be read as you would be defending ML.

Just to prove that:

ML did nothing wrong, players did all the bad. Therefore, players are the problem.

And now replace "the system" with "ML" in your sentence, do you see any similiarities between these two statements?

[Garymorilix]

The ability to trade items is an intended function of the system.
If you want argue that one shouldn't be able to trade items under any circumstance, go ahead, but just causes more trouble that require more solutions with their own flaws.



Without given context, that statement could be read as you would be defending ML.

The ability to trade does not mean you have to.

What you are talking about is FORCED.

When an item drops for me, it's mine. None can take it away cuz its in my bag, so fuck off. I can decide what to do.
THe fact that you dont give that choice to the owner, but pressure them to do shit you want them to do is exactly why I don't want to give power to people like you.

And no, PL doesn't enable bad behaviour. ML does. That's the whole point.
What you're doing is many steps ahead of what the game allows you to do. The game doesn't force you to trade shit.

[Kralljin]

When an item drops for me, it's mine. None can take it away cuz its in my bag, so fuck off. I can decide what to do.

Yes and if the guild previously decided to redistribute loot within the Loot trading rules, they can also choose not to invite you to their raids anymore because you aren't abiding by predetermined rules.

So yeah, the guild will then tell you to "fuck off".

The game doesn't force you to trade shit.

Neither does ML force anyone into ninjalooting or "favorable" loot assignment.

Piss and moan all you want, matter of fact is the same shit that CrawlFromThePit pointed out: Humans are the problem, not the system.
Unless you remove loot trading entirely, you will not get rid off this factor.

But then you will have all the negative consequences of a 100% random loot system.

[Garymorilix]

Yes and if the guild previously decided to redistribute loot within the Loot trading rules, they can also choose not to invite you to their raids anymore because you aren't abiding by predetermined rules.

So yeah, the guild will then tell you to "fuck off".

And I wouldn't give a flying fuck. Fuck a guild like that.

Shit still has nothing to do with the system, but more with the useless disgusting peer pressure that these "friendly" guilds use.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes and if the guild previously decided to redistribute loot within the Loot trading rules, they can also choose not to invite you to their raids anymore because you aren't abiding by predetermined rules.

So yeah, the guild will then tell you to "fuck off".



Neither does ML force anyone into ninjalooting or "favorable" loot assignment.

Piss and moan all you want, matter of fact is the same shit that CrawlFromThePit pointed out: Humans are the problem, not the system.
Unless you remove loot trading entirely, you will not get rid off this factor.

But then you will have all the negative consequences of a 100% random loot system.

ML ENABLES bad/toxic/exploitative behaviour.

PL DOES NOT.

THIS IS THE POINT. When humans are the problem, you take their tools away, boom, problem solved. That's what Blizz did, take it and bye.
Also, stop exploiting your guild mates.

You should learn manners before you talk about taking shit from people.

[Kralljin]

And I wouldn't give a flying fuck. Fuck a guild like that.

Why is ML bad?
Because Raidleaders can abuse it.

What is the flaw of PL?
Raidleaders can abuse it.

I am not a psyschologist, but that is Cognitive dissonance.

[Garymorilix]

Why is ML bad?
Because Raidleaders can abuse it.

What is the flaw of PL?
Raidleaders can abuse it.

I am not a psyschologist, but that is Cognitive dissonance.

Don't try to put your bs in my mouth. I never said the flaw of PL is that raidleaders abuse it. In fact, they can't. That's the whole argument.

You and your raid use peer pressure to get around the safety mechanism of the system. This is the problem here.

[Aphrel]

Being unable to trade unwanted loot is a dogshit system.

Its the byfar worst loot system weve ever had.

[Kralljin]

I never said the flaw of PL is that raidleaders abuse it. In fact, they can't.
You and your raid use peer pressure to get around the safety mechanism of the system. This is the problem here.

Who sets up these rules, enforces them and takes action if they're violated?
The Raidlead.

Like man, you're digging that hole ever deeper.

And again, trading loot is an intended part of the system, if Blizzard didn't want people trading loot, they would've left it out.

[Huzzaa]

Who sets up these rules, enforces them and takes action if they're violated?
The Raidlead.

Like man, you're digging that hole ever deeper.

And again, trading loot is an intended part of the system, if Blizzard didn't want people trading loot, they would've left it out.

I applaud you for your effort.

Do keep denying him the audience though.

I can't be bothered but it's a necessity to keep people without a brain in check so that they don't overflow these open discussion boards, lest someone look at them and think that that'd be the opinion of the majority. When in reality it isn't.

[Garymorilix]

Who sets up these rules, enforces them and takes action if they're violated?
The Raidlead.

Like man, you're digging that hole ever deeper.

And again, trading loot is an intended part of the system, if Blizzard didn't want people trading loot, they would've left it out.

Are you too simple to understand that raidleads can't abuse PL? They can do nothing if I don't give my loot away. They can call me names and kick me from the raid, but cant take my loot.

How do you enforce your "rules" if you can't take my loot from my bag? Unless I accept your made-up rules, you can't do jack shit to combat me.

Trading loot is intended. Forcing someone to trade their loot is not. Huge difference there.
Ofc, if they agree to it then who cares. I don't care if someone wants their loot taken away.

Why do you keep telling me that "trading loot is intended"? Why wouldn't it be? Who said it isn't? Are you this dense? Do you have an actual point that doesn't involve your made-up social pressure guild system to be forced upon everyone?

- - - Updated - - -

I applaud you for your effort.

Do keep denying him the audience though.

I can't be bothered but it's a necessity to keep people without a brain in check so that they don't overflow these open discussion boards, lest someone look at them and think that that'd be the opinion of the majority. When in reality it isn't.

I'd say something but someone told me I can't do that, sooo whatever.
Funny how Blizz didn't take your side of the argument, eh. Majority, eh.

[Kralljin]

They can call me names and kick me from the raid, but cant take my loot.

That sounds like drama.
Wasn't PL supposed to prevent that?

Like, the only thing that changed compared to an angry /gquit after the ML "wrongfully" assigned an item is the fact that you have that one item.
If that's the solution you've been looking for, okay, good for you i guess.

Why do you keep telling me that "trading loot is intended"? Why wouldn't it be? Who said it isn't? Are you this dense?

Because trading loot is what makes this possible in the first place, like i've been telling you multiple times by now.
Without this, a good part of this discussion wouldn't even take place, you can't point fingers at people and scream "THEY'RE ABUSING THE SYSTEM!", they're not, the game allows this to happen.
If Blizzard didn't want sort of thing to happen, they should've made even stricter rules, but they aren't.

If a Guild wants to trade loot based on given rules, then that's their choice and it's your own damn fault for joining such a guild if you have a problem with that.

That is why among other things PL is such a bad idea, because this "loophole" undermines a good part of this system for organized guilds (the only ones who were actually affected by this change) and destroys any potential advantages that the system has.
You still have a person who decide whom to give loot (the Itempool is simply more limited) and you still have the drama alongside with it, as you've shown.

A "corrupt" leadership can still very much exist within that frame, on top of that,you have a bunch of other disadvantages that are getting multiplied by the Titanforged feature.

This is why i tell you: If you want this "pure" version of PL that you so desire, you need to get rid off tradeable loot altogether, but the negative side effects of this decision would be pretty bad.

[Fayenoor]

The ability to trade does not mean you have to.

This logic extends to -- "The ability to Master Loot, doesn't mean you have to". In Legion, ML and PL existed side by and side, and I knew of plenty of guilds which ran with PL instead of ML because they chose to trust the system over an individual.

Under ML, if a raider felt that he has been cheated over a loot by the master looter, then he was welcome to leave and find other guilds and/or find a guild which exclusively ran PL.

I agree that Master Looter by allowing a lot of power to an individual over an automated system was prone to corruption and exploitation. And I also agree that by eliminating ML, Blizzard has chosen to shift the blame to themselves. They can live with people blaming the PL RNG for loot fubar instead of blaming a corrupt individual or group of individual (group council).

But in my 15 years of WoW, I have met a lot of fairly decent players who have run successful guilds with Master Looter through several expansions. They have successfully run Master looter at a time when legendaries were rare and people needed to be assigned lego order by a loot council. Like - who gets the next Thunderfury?

By assuming every Master Looter was a jerk and ninja looter, Blizzard has effectively assumed that scumbags make up most of their player base. When you assume the worst in people and build systems to protect people from themselves, you are essentially running a police state.

[Garymorilix]

That sounds like drama.
Wasn't PL supposed to prevent that?

Like, the only thing that changed compared to an angry /gquit after the ML "wrongfully" assigned an item is the fact that you have that one item.
If that's the solution you've been looking for, okay, good for you i guess.



Because trading loot is what makes this possible in the first place, like i've been telling you multiple times by now.
Without this, a good part of this discussion wouldn't even take place, you can't point fingers at people and scream "THEY'RE ABUSING THE SYSTEM!", they're not, the game allows this to happen.
If Blizzard didn't want sort of thing to happen, they should've made even stricter rules, but they aren't.

If a Guild wants to trade loot based on given rules, then that's their choice and it's your own damn fault for joining such a guild if you have a problem with that.

That is why among other things PL is such a bad idea, because this "loophole" undermines a good part of this system for organized guilds (the only ones who were actually affected by this change) and destroys any potential advantages that the system has.
You still have a person who decide whom to give loot (the Itempool is simply more limited) and you still have the drama alongside with it, as you've shown.

A "corrupt" leadership can still very much exist within that frame, on top of that,you have a bunch of other disadvantages that are getting multiplied by the Titanforged feature.

This is why i tell you: If you want this "pure" version of PL that you so desire, you need to get rid off tradeable loot altogether, but the negative side effects of this decision would be pretty bad.

This logic extends to -- "The ability to Master Loot, doesn't mean you have to". In Legion, ML and PL existed side by and side, and I knew of plenty of guilds which ran with PL instead of ML because they chose to trust the system over an individual.

Under ML, if a raider felt that he has been cheated over a loot by the master looter, then he was welcome to leave and find other guilds and/or find a guild which exclusively ran PL.

I agree that Master Looter by allowing a lot of power to an individual over an automated system was prone to corruption and exploitation. And I also agree that by eliminating ML, Blizzard has chosen to shift the blame to themselves. They can live with people blaming the PL RNG for loot fubar instead of blaming a corrupt individual or group of individual (group council).

But in my 15 years of WoW, I have met a lot of fairly decent players who have run successful guilds with Master Looter through several expansions. They have successfully run Master looter at a time when legendaries were rare and people needed to be assigned lego order by a loot council. Like - who gets the next Thunderfury?

By assuming every Master Looter was a jerk and ninja looter, Blizzard has effectively assumed that scumbags make up most of their player base. When you assume the worst in people and build systems to protect people from themselves, you are essentially running a police state.

To both of you:

Trading loot is fine. If you don't need something you can pass it on, sure, why not. Believe it or not, I always trade loot away that is not an upgrade.

Why is it so hard to get this simple fckin concept, here me out:

You trading your loot away is fine. It's your decision. It's your action.

Someone trading your loot away is so beyond wrong I don't even know why you'd want that. It's not your decision. You are a by-stander regarding your own stuff (or a chance at it).

I honestly have no fckin idea how to dumb it down for ya'll even further.
I get, you really like being handed loot for lickin' boot.
As I said, I don't.
In fact, Blizz doesn't like that either, that's why they removed ML.

Anything else you don't get?

[Count Zero]

Excellent for pugs. Bad but not terrible for guilds.

[Garymorilix]

That sounds like drama.
Wasn't PL supposed to prevent that?

You're actually fuckin trolling at this point, and you fuckin know it.

[Kralljin]

Someone trading your loot away is so beyond wrong I don't even know why you'd want that. It's not your decision. You are a by-stander regarding your own stuff (or a chance at it).

Then why does a system that was supposed to prevent players from interfering with the loot, still allow player intervention?
"Just don't join that guild!" was the same advice given to anyone who previously complained over ML.

You're actually fuckin trolling at this point, and you fuckin know it.

First off, you can edit your posts instead of doubleposting.

Second, if it's that easy to make fun of your argument, then your logic may not be as watertight as you think it is.

[predlol]

To Raiders:
- Has personal loot helped your raiding experience by reducing loot drama?
- Do you feel interested in staying with a guild once the guild hits a major road block or do you just move on to higher progression guild for easier loot drops?

Never had big loot drama before. People are grown up, it’s a game. As long as bosses die and people have fun, who cares.

To Raiders:
- Do you feel interested in staying with a guild once the guild hits a major road block or do you just move on to higher progression guild for easier loot drops?

Don’t really get that. I always felt that loots are just a mean to an end. The goal is to kill bosses and not to get loot.

Overall PL is annoying when somebody is getting gear he won’t use but can’t trade (that boomie in feral loot spec by mistake getting a coral on first M ashvane kill says hello).

Once people get enough ilvl it’s just Master loot with extra steps anyway ... Like we had people coin Radiance to be able to trade Coral/Ink.

Overall I don’t think it’s a positive change, but it’s not game breaking either. Its just not important compared with the other issues of the game (mainly that you feel force to do horribly boring content in order to do fun content or feel guilty because you are « letting your guild down » ...).

The one thing though: I’d say that, for most people, trading something away has to feel worse than not getting it in the first place. I can definitely see issue there.

On a side note: it’s a very positive change for pugs.

[Garymorilix]

Then why does a system that was supposed to prevent players from interfering with the loot, still allow player intervention?
"Just don't join that guild!" was the same advice given to anyone who previously complained over ML.



First off, you can edit your posts instead of doubleposting.

Second, if it's that easy to make fun of your argument, then your logic may not be as watertight as you think it is.

1) It does not allow player intervention.
There is no in-game system in place where you could interact with anybody else's loot but your own. I don't mean trading, before you come in like a buffoon saying the same shit again, I mean you can't give loot to other players FROM a player or boss.
I just described PL for ya, you're welcome.
But hey, name me ONE instance where player intervention in loot distribution IS possible by another player using any in-game system. Trading does not qualify as loot distribution, again, it's trading.

Secondly, "Just don't join that guild" is now the norm, deal with it, cuz there are no more guilds with ML.

2) You didn't make fun of anything. This is just trolling.
Like if I pretended to eat a camera, knowing that it's not edible. It's just... sad.