Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[Mardux]

It's funny how every single one of you defends master loot, and says only a "minority of people" abused the system.

Yet, when it comes to reality, the abuse of the system is exactly why Blizzard removed it.

So which one is it then:
It's not abused that much and they removed it for the lolz.
OR
It was abused to no end and they removed it for a reason?

When it comes to reality, it hurts doesn't it?
Maybe your guild weren't abusing it (which i doubt) but even then, for every one guild who used it right there were a dozen guilds that didn't.
Argue me all day you want, ya'll been proven wrong the moment they removed Master loot.

I’m curious why you think there can only be two options and only the ones you choose? I’m also curious how you came to know, for a fact, the exact reasons blizzard removed ML? I’ll wait.

E: And since you’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t understand how a minority works, something doesn’t have to happen “not that much” for it to be a minority. 5, 10, 20, he’ll even 49% is a minority.

Though, I wouldn’t expect you to care what with you being a part of the “let’s punish everyone for the stupidity of the minority” party.

[Eosia]

So anything that happens after that is not caused by the feature, if people use it wrongly then it's their fault, not the feature's fault. Therefore, there is no problem in the feature.

Your logic is completely flawed. Not to mention that Blizzard has precedent going back over a decade now of, when a feature is abused, they will restrict it or break it outright. Google "WoW Augmented Virtual Reality addon".

You will note that they took initial steps in Legion by making ML only available in guild groups. But obviously that was not successful so they decided the ML was causing more problems than it was worth. You also seem to forget that when Blizzard receives a lot of complaints or tickets about something that they agree is a problem, they develop systemic solutions to it. It's why we have a web interface now that will restore items we accidentally delete/vendor/DE. Keep in mind Blizzard collects massive amounts of data. Back in Burning Crusade the Customer Service forum was, much to our entertainment, shown that GMs can see what you typed in chat going at least six months back. So they know what people are experiencing more than you.

And if you really believe, as your posts seem to indicate, that Blizzard sits around thinking of ways to screw players over then I have an Nigerian Prince who would love to meet you.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Your logic is completely flawed. Not to mention that Blizzard has precedent going back over a decade now of, when a feature is abused, they will restrict it or break it outright. Google "WoW Augmented Virtual Reality addon".

You will note that they took initial steps in Legion by making ML only available in guild groups. But obviously that was not successful so they decided the ML was causing more problems than it was worth. You also seem to forget that when Blizzard receives a lot of complaints or tickets about something that they agree is a problem, they develop systemic solutions to it. It's why we have a web interface now that will restore items we accidentally delete/vendor/DE. Keep in mind Blizzard collects massive amounts of data. Back in Burning Crusade the Customer Service forum was, much to our entertainment, shown that GMs can see what you typed in chat going at least six months back. So they know what people are experiencing more than you.

And if you really believe, as your posts seem to indicate, that Blizzard sits around thinking of ways to screw players over then I have an Nigerian Prince who would love to meet you.

Lol what? I never said anything that comes even close to suggesting Blizzard is sitting around thinking of ways to screw players over. I really don't know where you pulled this narrative from.

I didn't say there is no problem in the overall game, or that no problem is related to looting. I said there's no problem in the ML feature. Because it does what it's designed to do. Making people greedy and giving them ideas of how they can be a dick is not a part of the feature, that's a human issue, our flaws as terrible beings and even more so with gamers who feel entitled all the time and have no respect for anything or anyone. That's the cause of the problem, the feature didn't implent these tendencies in anyone.

The steps they took in legion don't change anything in what I explained. It's just Blizzard doing what they can to defend players from themselves. If anything they simply underestimated how garbage their community is so they have to take extra steps to correct other people's mistake. This, of course, includes the item restore feature: it's not to fix a mistake they made, the game doesn't delete things without your consent, it's ONLY to correct the mistakes of idiots (for lack of better word, I'm not trying to be insulting but really, how do you call someone who's not smart enough to not delete his items or doesn't watch what they do so they delete important items? same kind of people who drop their phones in the toilet I suppose, not the sharpest tools in the box).

So the problem is not in the feature. There's nothing flawed in my logic. What's flawed is assuming people are suddenly better human beings because a feature that was used wrongly got deleted, no, people are still shit, they simply lost a tool to express how shitty they are, at the expense of more evolved human beings who once again have to pay for the idiocy of others.

[SirBeef]

I think that's absolutely fine, great even; This is why it should be a choice just like switching to group loot or free for all is a choice.

Never claimed it shouldn't.

[Zarvel]

To some degree you are correct, this is a "you" problem. On the other hand, this is entirely because blizzard strongarmed people from a system where loot is shared by the group as spoils of war, to a system where it is every man for themself. in raids with masterloot it has always been the case that the loot dropped was the groups, that is no longer the case. Blaming people for having trouble transitioning from the group view to the new egocentric view is not really fair as this is blizzards fault entirely.

No one's blaming anyone for failing to cope with the transition. The blame for people still adamantly insisting on sticking to the old "ideals" of loot sharing however, is justified.
Also, personal loot is not egocentric. It's just people getting their due for their effort individually. The degree of the effort may vary, and that is where roster decisions come in.
A lot of people's problems with loot in WoW today comes with their sense of entitlement. People not only feel entitled to receive loot for everything they do, but now they also feel entitled to stuff that others receive.
Just do the content and let loot come to you eventually. Again, like in my previous post, unless you're pushing world top 100, does the pace of receiving loot really matter to players? For some it may, but that's because they are not on terms with where they actually stand.


It's really this simple:

* You take part in group content - every individual contributes in one manner or another, and as such is equally eligible for loot. No arbitrary player made and self-imposed rules blocking a player from being eligible anymore. If you think people in your raid don't deserve loot, you have the option and the power to get rid of such players.

* You receive a piece of loot for doing said group content - (whether that piece of loot is immediately usable by you or if it's actually useful for you or not, is not even up for debate because that is how loot in ALL RPGs works. WoW is finally catching up to the pace.)

* The system by design is setup such that if you continue to receive unusable pieces of loot, you can eventually begin trading them. This is a good thing as before you start trading items away, you're already self-sufficient enough to help you do your job better.

* You NO LONGER have loot drops for specializations that are not in your raid. How do people miss this aspect of personal loot? You no longer see items like shields taking up a guaranteed loot slot on a boss when you have no shield wearers in your raid to begin with.

* If you do not receive loot on a boss kill, well, tough luck, that's what Loot is about. It May or May Not drop for you. Same in any loot based game. You should just be happy that there's a chance others can trade you their loot. Everyone conveniently forgets that when loot is traded around, someone is losing it for someone else to gain it. You can't have it both ways. Appreciate both sides of the deal.

* Personal loot is also so damn ideal for loot funneling because you can stack the classes you want and restrict the loot types that drop to just those. You cannot do that with GL or ML.

I play my DK passively, just doing M+, i haven't stepped into any raid since Uldir. The DK is at 440 ilv already, while my paladin and warrior alts sit at 438 and 436 respectively. Gear comes too easy in this game for people to be making a big ass fuss about it on forums like these.
Enjoy the content, and feel satisfied when you do receive a useful piece of loot. If you cannot appreciate that, maybe this is not the game for you any longer.

FYI,by "you" i am obviously generalizing it, not picking on anyone in particular.

[Garymorilix]

No.. you are just bringing fallacy after fallacy. Those are not the options. Again you are simply bad at arguing your case. Then again your retoric mimics that of trump and the likes, so its not that shocking. They have time and time again brought things back or simply said they wouldnt have done what they did in the past seeing how it turned out; its not an argument and you are not proving anything.

It was never abused that much, but it wasnt perfect. Fact is you do not know why they made the switch. Ill hand you the reasoning from Ion:

In a recent dev Q&A, Ion Hazzikostas (Warcraft Game Director), explained some reasons for this change:

- All other loot in game has been on the Personal loot system (dungeons, world bosses, etc)
- Master loot puts your fate in someone else’s hands, and you no longer have any control over it
- If you help kill a boss, you should have a chance to get loot
- It was not to take away split runs, however, they mention that is a welcomed side effect. (A split run is where a team takes their roster of 20 and split them up into 4 farm teams, for example. Each team consists of 5 ‘real’ players and 15 alts. All items that drop are Master looted to the 5 ‘real’ players, allowing the team to gear up faster).

As you maybe can tell, abuse of the sort you are talking about is not even mentioned.

Blizzards own reasoning is flawed to begin with imho, which is partly why I think so many people are unhappy with the forcing of ML in the more serious raidingscene. In my eyes it boils down to a change in philosophy more so than anything else. In fact many guilds did not want to make the switch to the PL system, and so they were forced to adhere to the singleplayers selfishmentality by blizzard.

- It being used outside mythic and guild raiding, is a horrible reasoning for why ML should be replaced in one of the only socialinteractive parts of the game which is still there.
- You dont have any more control over what loot you gain in PL. You can get all the crap you never wanted while never getting your hands of the items you needed, which can be said for multiple people in a raidgroup. Also you are very much in control in many groups how the ML distributes the loot. You control your class, your attitude and attendance in a guild. You are also fully in control of being in a functioning guild and not a shitfest. In DKP and other ways of putting a currency on it, you control it even more.
- Its a singleplayer mentality that you should get loot just because you were there. The group should matter more imo as it fits the genre a whole lot more. Besides in the current version of the game there are PLENTY of ways to earn loot outside organized raiding.
- The abuse that was 'dealt' with as a side effect, is worse than before, being it in dungeons or raidsettings. In a much more organized fashion can you now target single speccs of gear to drop.

In the end theres nothing for you to prove as it is a subject matter.. Again shocking that you haven't noticed.

Alrite I helped you by highlighting the exact fuckin point that Blizz also realized.

My "fallacy" was wording that exact same thing in a harsher way, I guess, sorry if it was too hard to understand a little more emotional explanation.

People not getting loot because it's "reserved" for more "loyal" members is exactly the reason people were pissed.
You don't get to decide whether someone gets to roll on items when you BOTH did the same boss.

As simple as that. You can either weed out underperformers AFTER the fact, but as long as you BOTH did it, you both deserve a fuckin chance at loot.
If not, then why the fuck do you even bring people like that to your raid?
Oh I know why, so you can "reserve" items for the "better" players. It's all a scheme at that point.

And no, I saw someone talk about "but being a GM is haaaaard you have to organiiiiiiize and shiiiiit and I deserve moooooore for that" fuck no.
That's a choice. You can always find other people who are willing to lead. But then you realize they are corrupt af.
So then you lead, and you become corrupt af but "bruuuuv I'm not as bad as that other guy" and boom, we got a problem already.

So the solution: take ML away.

ML might "not" be a systemic problem, but a player-relation problem, but it doesn't matter. It ENABLES the worst kind of bs there is: exploiting people. And I ain't a fan of that. Maybe you are, maybe you like licking boot for extra loot, I don't.
Many others didn't. Blizz removed ML. Story ended there.

What do you want me to prove, mate? What?
Blizz has ALREADY REMOVED ML. What else do you need me to prove? Eh? Proof is in the game. Maybe it's hard to accept, but it's there. Or should I say, not there?

- - - Updated - - -

I bet you're one of those that always attends farm runs but when the wipefest progress night is coming suddenly it's grandma's cousin's birthday, can't come. Or one of those that is always lucky with tfs and then gets bored / burnt out / suddenly interested in rerolling class once he has everything and it would be his turn to trade loot to others. Loyalty has value to guild stability, selfishness has none yet it's basically what personal loot rewards.

For every person that was in the past under ML getting extra loot due to asslicking the GM (happens) I've seen easily 20-30 people who get what they wanted (curve, cutting edge, trinket, mount, weapon) and insta stop playing, jump to a better guild, take a break, reroll or w/e else that ends up harming the guild's progress and stability.

But yeah, Blizzard wants to reward these people more and more and generally strip guilds of anything that differentiated them from pugs. Btw there's a reason pugs don't kill mythic Azshara or w/e other cutting edge boss. You know why? Because pug mentality is always grab what you can easily get, then bail. Nobody sticks through 300 wipes in a pug. So people who stick through should be rewarded otherwise progress becomes more and more impossible as the atmosphere closes to the pug one.

Nothing kills progression and therefore guilds more than attendance boss, and ML together with DKP and other systems were meant to ensure people kept their attendance up and weren't guild hopping / taking breaks as they pleased, killing the guild in the process.

And the season a lot of GMs were selfish people and loot whored was because there's absolutely no in-game reward for being a good GM while it's a massive headache to deal with roster issues especially in the age of "cyclical players" and mercenary / pug attitudes. Not only that, but in mid to low tier mythic guilds you have players who have to be spoonfed strats and handheld by a living boss mod in form of a "raid leader" otherwise bosses won't die. No wonder the amount of good Samaritans as GMs was dwarfed by the amount of GMs that accepted that hassle in exchange for "extra benefits".

People want all the loot, but they aren't willing to help with recruitment, raid leading, prepping strats or anything. Often they cba bringing their own consumables and expect the guild to provide that too. In the end they often even cba notifying they won't be present in the raid but if guild takes precautions and recruits few extras and they get benched, they cry rivers about unfair treatment because they got benched when someone has to.

Anyway for me it's kinda talking in hindsight because I no longer raid, my guild stopped, GM cba'd dealing with people anymore and the core of the guild quit or went to play classic because the general consensus was that retail raiding is too demanding for how little rewarding it is.

I spent 13 years in various raiding guilds less or more progressed, never been any officer / gm / loot handler so I always looked at it from a side perspective, and in the end I've dealt with shitty GMs but the worst people were always recruits not GMs. And as years progressed, all I saw is growing entitlement and desire of instant gratification in the playerbase. Since start of Legion I've been in 5 different guilds and they all crumbled, mostly due to recruitment / roster issues, not even "drama" or anything. Lack of reward for loyalty and putting effort into making the guild work is the prime reason guilds don't last and GMs just burn out and one day just call it.

I fully expect than in a couple of expansions mythic raiding will be abandoned and either not exist or be some "e-sport" for 20 guilds worldwide, and everything else will devolve into pugging because that's what Blizzard seems to promote.

And yes, I'm 100% sure they made push for PL just to make all loot dispute tickets invalid by definition so they can have less load on GMs and no, not to provide better service to everyone else, but to cut costs and do mass layoffs like they did in early 2019. The name of the game isn't how do we create the best product but how do we invest less so the profit margins increase.

There's been tons of things GMs helped with in the past and got pushed into automated self-service: character unstuck, item restoration, character undelete, even report spam and chat mute. It's always said it's for user convenience but it's mostly for their internal bean counting purposes. Things like report / silence system have been proven to be abusable and just handled by a robot instead of a thinking human. So PL exists not to help us, but to help them.

--- snip ---

Also, no, I gave up on guild raids a long time ago.

I am the guy who spends 4-5 days straight teaching random pugs how to down Jaina or Azshara. I am the guy who organizes my own fuckin groups not whining about bullshit. I am the guy who talks back to the retard who says "kick low dps" just because that low dps made a simple mistake on the first week of raid release and we are all learning tactics.

See, I would NEVER go around reserving shit or keeping my friends in any higher esteem than anyone else. Because 5 people can't down the raid.

Being a leader is not hard, it's a choice. The reward for that is that you WIN. NOT that you need petty little hand-outs cuz "oh maaah gaaawd its soooo haaard to tell people tactiiiiiics". You either got what it takes to be one, or you don't. It's simple really.
If you don't however, you deserve to be lead by someone who is fair.
Most of the people that suffered under ML couldn't speak out. They were stuck in "friendly" guilds.

It's like an abusive relationship.

I never raided for loot, I always raided for progress. But for progress, there needs to be personal progress. Or at least a chance at it.
When you HAVE to enter a raid and spend many hours (to not get kicked or benched) knowing that you will literally get nothing out of it, NOT EVEN A CHANCE at something, it's like being a hostage or a slave for someone else's progresssion. I know that feeling all too well, I wish you did too.

Someone said it best a few pages earlier:
I got a lucky warforge, and no-one can take it from me. Fck yea.

And that's the feeling raiders should have, not being afraid of the king and his dogs.

[Eosia]

Lol what? I never said anything that comes even close to suggesting Blizzard is sitting around thinking of ways to screw players over. I really don't know where you pulled this narrative from.

You imply it with the insinuation that Blizzard had no reason to remove ML.

I didn't say there is no problem in the overall game, or that no problem is related to looting. I said there's no problem in the ML feature. Because it does what it's designed to do. Making people greedy and giving them ideas of how they can be a dick is not a part of the feature, that's a human issue, our flaws as terrible beings and even more so with gamers who feel entitled all the time and have no respect for anything or anyone. That's the cause of the problem, the feature didn't implent these tendencies in anyone.

And since Blizzard cannot make players not be jerks, they took the tool they were abusing to be jerks away. What part of that can you not comprehend?

[Garymorilix]

No one's blaming anyone for failing to cope with the transition. The blame for people still adamantly insisting on sticking to the old "ideals" of loot sharing however, is justified.
Also, personal loot is not egocentric. It's just people getting their due for their effort individually. The degree of the effort may vary, and that is where roster decisions come in.
A lot of people's problems with loot in WoW today comes with their sense of entitlement. People not only feel entitled to receive loot for everything they do, but now they also feel entitled to stuff that others receive.
Just do the content and let loot come to you eventually. Again, like in my previous post, unless you're pushing world top 100, does the pace of receiving loot really matter to players? For some it may, but that's because they are not on terms with where they actually stand.


It's really this simple:

* You take part in group content - every individual contributes in one manner or another, and as such is equally eligible for loot. No arbitrary player made and self-imposed rules blocking a player from being eligible anymore. If you think people in your raid don't deserve loot, you have the option and the power to get rid of such players.

* You receive a piece of loot for doing said group content - (whether that piece of loot is immediately usable by you or if it's actually useful for you or not, is not even up for debate because that is how loot in ALL RPGs works. WoW is finally catching up to the pace.)

* The system by design is setup such that if you continue to receive unusable pieces of loot, you can eventually begin trading them. This is a good thing as before you start trading items away, you're already self-sufficient enough to help you do your job better.

* You NO LONGER have loot drops for specializations that are not in your raid. How do people miss this aspect of personal loot? You no longer see items like shields taking up a guaranteed loot slot on a boss when you have no shield wearers in your raid to begin with.

* If you do not receive loot on a boss kill, well, tough luck, that's what Loot is about. It May or May Not drop for you. Same in any loot based game. You should just be happy that there's a chance others can trade you their loot. Everyone conveniently forgets that when loot is traded around, someone is losing it for someone else to gain it. You can't have it both ways. Appreciate both sides of the deal.

* Personal loot is also so damn ideal for loot funneling because you can stack the classes you want and restrict the loot types that drop to just those. You cannot do that with GL or ML.

I play my DK passively, just doing M+, i haven't stepped into any raid since Uldir. The DK is at 440 ilv already, while my paladin and warrior alts sit at 438 and 436 respectively. Gear comes too easy in this game for people to be making a big ass fuss about it on forums like these.
Enjoy the content, and feel satisfied when you do receive a useful piece of loot. If you cannot appreciate that, maybe this is not the game for you any longer.

FYI,by "you" i am obviously generalizing it, not picking on anyone in particular.

This guy gets it. It's not hard, just read this.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Its fast as hell to gear which is really the only positive. But has the problem of being easily manipulated and gamed by players to just give out candy to the "great" ones. Makes the whole game feel like its just coin rolls anymore too.

[Dilbon]

All loot drama could be removed by making drops very simple: when you kill a boss either everyone gets a piece of loot or nobody gets anything.

[kaminaris]

I'll just leave it here:
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-vs-master-loot-bfa/
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-...er-loot-bfa-2/
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/master-lo...uman-feelings/

Good riddance.

[Crimbobbin]

No one's blaming anyone for failing to cope with the transition. The blame for people still adamantly insisting on sticking to the old "ideals" of loot sharing however, is justified.
Also, personal loot is not egocentric. It's just people getting their due for their effort individually. The degree of the effort may vary, and that is where roster decisions come in.
A lot of people's problems with loot in WoW today comes with their sense of entitlement. People not only feel entitled to receive loot for everything they do, but now they also feel entitled to stuff that others receive.
Just do the content and let loot come to you eventually. Again, like in my previous post, unless you're pushing world top 100, does the pace of receiving loot really matter to players? For some it may, but that's because they are not on terms with where they actually stand.


It's really this simple:

* You take part in group content - every individual contributes in one manner or another, and as such is equally eligible for loot. No arbitrary player made and self-imposed rules blocking a player from being eligible anymore. If you think people in your raid don't deserve loot, you have the option and the power to get rid of such players.

* You receive a piece of loot for doing said group content - (whether that piece of loot is immediately usable by you or if it's actually useful for you or not, is not even up for debate because that is how loot in ALL RPGs works. WoW is finally catching up to the pace.)

* The system by design is setup such that if you continue to receive unusable pieces of loot, you can eventually begin trading them. This is a good thing as before you start trading items away, you're already self-sufficient enough to help you do your job better.

* You NO LONGER have loot drops for specializations that are not in your raid. How do people miss this aspect of personal loot? You no longer see items like shields taking up a guaranteed loot slot on a boss when you have no shield wearers in your raid to begin with.

* If you do not receive loot on a boss kill, well, tough luck, that's what Loot is about. It May or May Not drop for you. Same in any loot based game. You should just be happy that there's a chance others can trade you their loot. Everyone conveniently forgets that when loot is traded around, someone is losing it for someone else to gain it. You can't have it both ways. Appreciate both sides of the deal.

* Personal loot is also so damn ideal for loot funneling because you can stack the classes you want and restrict the loot types that drop to just those. You cannot do that with GL or ML.

I play my DK passively, just doing M+, i haven't stepped into any raid since Uldir. The DK is at 440 ilv already, while my paladin and warrior alts sit at 438 and 436 respectively. Gear comes too easy in this game for people to be making a big ass fuss about it on forums like these.
Enjoy the content, and feel satisfied when you do receive a useful piece of loot. If you cannot appreciate that, maybe this is not the game for you any longer.

FYI,by "you" i am obviously generalizing it, not picking on anyone in particular.

Not sure you've ever lead a raid team before or had to deal with recruitment issues, but let me reply with some what my guild has had to deal with. There is no more "trial" status when recruiting. Before with ML, it was very common for new recruits to have at least a two week aka two full raid clears before they were eligible for loot. This was to gauge whether or not they fit in your guild/were as good as they claimed to be when you recruited them. Are you telling me some one who dies early every fight/is the lowest dps when their ilvl shows they should be pulling way higher numbers/turns out to be a dick one week in/can't do simple mechanics deserves loot over your long term guild members that have proven themselves for years? Really? I have had countless recruits come in for one raid, be terrible, get rewarded for it, and then gquit. Can't very well eventually trade those items to your guildies if the people getting them leave right after.

On the same note, it has also killed a bit of the fun we used to have, because after things are on farm we would gladly bring our casual non-raiders in to get the AoTC/ a chance to use their coins or get pieces no one wanted, as well as let people bring alts in. Yeah, we have pretty much stopped all of that outside a small number of cases, because we can't risk them getting something a loyal raider has been trying to get since the beginning of the tier. It sucks. Not a single one of them since the beginning of the game EVER had an issue with that, they came in full aware that they were not a loot priority and were just happy to be there, because they knew they did not DESERVE loot they didn't work for, nor did they ever want to take loot from a main raider because they understood it made more sense for gear to go to the people actually raiding.

If Blizzard could properly balance stats/procs, maybe this next part wouldn't be an issue but we have seen more "useful" pieces be completely wasted because they were terrible stats/worse than something 15-20 ilvls lower than we ever did in the years of master looting since vanilla. You act like it's not a possibility to only have an item drop one time in 2-3 months of clearing, which my guild has proven time and time again, it's not only possible, it's the norm for us. If your answer is, you can get just as good or better from mythic +, well that kind of kills the point of re-clearing the raid after the first time, because now it's only purpose is to see the content, might as well just wait for LFR to be released and only focus on mythic +. Which to be fair, that's about how my entire raid team feels now, raiding doesn't feel worth it any more.

Lastly the claim that PL is ideal because you can just stack the classes you want. Yeah, guess that works because recruiting those classes is so easy. This entire xpack, we have only been able to recruit a total of 10 people, out of those 10 people, only 3 remain. Out of those 3, I only expect 1 to be a long term guild member. We ran all three raids this xpack with ONE plate wearer. One, singular. We haven't had a druid, a paladin, or a DK the entire xpack. We only have 2 mail wearers and a sea of leather and clothies. The plate wearer just gave up playing all together, and he's been with us for the last two xpacks. The mail wearers are equally frustrated.

The only other thing I have to say is for people that like having choices in games it's weird at how many people rejoice when they keep taking those choices away. To make it fair, if you are in a full guild run, no pugs, ML should be an option again. PL has caused more issues for our guild than ML ever did. And we have never, EVER had any one in the guild complain about master looting.

[Zantos]

I love it. Removes any drama it could cause. New recruits in guilds dont have to worry about being passed up for loot or forced to give away items they worked just as hard for. Pugs can no longer cause problems. 5 mans are much nicer since you don't have people just hitting need on everything or stealing items you can use that they can't.

Honestly, the single downside is not being able to trade away items you don't want. Yet again, that just opens up the can of worms of "trade them your item you got to help the guild or we kick you".

Blame the bullies and jerks who ruined it for everyone else. If people could have been nice to begin with, and not just wanted to be a loot hog or have a power complex, then maybe we wouldn't have needed the trade restrictions in the first place. Yet again, the entire argument of "for the better of the guild" is laughable since, well, get better so you progress. Unless you're racing for world first or something, the difference just isn't worth being a bully.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure you've ever lead a raid team before or had to deal with recruitment issues, but let me reply with some what my guild has had to deal with. There is no more "trial" status when recruiting. Before with ML, it was very common for new recruits to have at least a two week aka two full raid clears before they were eligible for loot. This was to gauge whether or not they fit in your guild/were as good as they claimed to be when you recruited them. Are you telling me some one who dies early every fight/is the lowest dps when their ilvl shows they should be pulling way higher numbers/turns out to be a dick one week in/can't do simple mechanics deserves loot over your long term guild members that have proven themselves for years? Really? I have had countless recruits come in for one raid, be terrible, get rewarded for it, and then gquit. Can't very well eventually trade those items to your guildies if the people getting them leave right after.

On the same note, it has also killed a bit of the fun we used to have, because after things are on farm we would gladly bring our casual non-raiders in to get the AoTC/ a chance to use their coins or get pieces no one wanted, as well as let people bring alts in. Yeah, we have pretty much stopped all of that outside a small number of cases, because we can't risk them getting something a loyal raider has been trying to get since the beginning of the tier..

First, why did you stop taking alts? Them getting loot wont impact you at all. If you're skilled enough to clear a raid weekly, its not going to make a single bit of difference to bring them. They got an item that someone else wanted? Grats, they got loot. Not like your raid suffers to the point that you suddenly can't kill that boss.

Second, if someone is constantly sucking, remove them. They aren't helping you, so why continue to take them? That point about them getting loot is moot. Its a you issue, not the loot system. If you're taking someone who keeps failing, then thats on you. I mean really, if it takes you more then 1 raid to know that they suck, then that is just bad. To get to the 1 week point and continue to take them? Again, thats on you.

I used to recruit too. If we got someone who was a jerk and was way crappy, bye bye. It doesn't take 2 weeks to determine if someone is decent or not. It takes 1 raid. Maybe less depending on the boss and their class / spec. Not to mention, your other point of "can't eventually trade those items" is moot again. 2 hour window. If any at all.

This exemplifies why the restrictions are there. People feel the need to "trial run" someone and deny them loot because stringing them along beyond the first raid and not giving them loot is bad.

[Raelbo]

The feature makes one person master looter, giving them the ability to distribute loot to whoever. Right? That's a fact, we can all agree on this? Do you need a fucking scientific paper to be convinced of that? I hope not, because most people don't.

Then let's continue.

What else does the feature do? Well, the answer is nothing, obviously, that's all it does, make someone the only authority on loot distribution.

And that is the problem. It delegates power to an individual and this creates a number of problematic issues.

• The person to whom the power is delegated cannot always be trusted to use that power responsibility
• People are not infallible. Master Looters are susceptible to making honest mistakes which can lead to nasty disputes
• Other participants in the group can be difficult/unreasonable which leads to conflict

So anything that happens after that is not caused by the feature, if people use it wrongly then it's their fault, not the feature's fault. Therefore, there is no problem in the feature. That's like saying guns kill people, no they don't, a gun cannot start levitating, turn off the safety, load itself, aim at people and shoot itself.

I don't want to turn this into a gun debate, but what I will say is this: Gun control is a contentious issue, which makes it a bit of silly analogy for you to use.

Players do have a problem, a serious mental problem, greedy and lacking self respect, they are disgusting. Frankly, that shouldn't be Blizzard thing to deal with, they're not your parents.

I already addressed this: The people who cause the problems are not the only ones who suffer the consequences. WoW is a massively multiplayer game. The actions of problem players affect numerous other players.

Yes, it's not Blizzard's job to teach their players to be decent, responsible human being. But it is their prerogative to limit the amount of power that one player can have over another player's experience. Specifically in whether or not to allow players to control other player's rewards.

I'm not just blaming the latter, I'm blaming everyone. People sitting there crying about ML instead of making their own PL groups.

Pretty much the entire community acting like they can't do anything about ML ninja'ing, it's really fucking easy to leave ML groups and make your own PL group.
Why do people always act like THERE'S NO CHOICE we're all victims of the evil system!!! oh mah gaaaad!

Sorry, but your argument is either very naive or very disingenuous. You choose.

The fact is that Pug groups consist of 10-30 players. By definition only a small percentage of the players get to "make their own group". You cannot have everyone making their own group, it's physically impossible.

Fact #2: ML can achieve more optimal loot distribution than PL. Ergo it will tend to be the choice for most organised groups.

Your idea that a player could simply choose to start a PL group as a viable alternative is a fantasy. In theory, yes, it's not impossible. But the reality is that personal choice is constrained by how the establishment operates, and in practice trying to start your own group when several other groups are already forming is unlikely to meet with success.

Get a grip, stop waiting for everyone to save you. Let people who enjoyed ML and used it responsibly keep on using it go make your own PL group, what's the problem

The problem was never the people who used ML responsibly, it was those who used it irresponsibility and the fact that it's impossible for the game to differentiate between the two.

Everybody gets what they want. Now you force everyone into 1 thing, like it or not that's just what you are forced to do, whoever NO ONE WAS FORCED to use ML before.

Again, either naive or disingenuous. In a game which revolves around people joining large groups, the idea of individual choice is massively curtailed.

In essence "choosing" not to be a victim of ML is pretty much choosing to not raid.

[psyquest]

I am the GM of a CE guild. We clear mythic raids before a new one comes. We raid 3 nights. The loot change had us worried for few reasons, mainly:

How do we optimise loot drops to ensure our raid can kill bosses. Basically if dps is required, give dps priority, if boss hits hard, give tank priority etc.
How do you test a new apply in mythic (because heroic is not adequate for testing) without removing the chance of a loot from a guildie.

3 raids later:

No more headache with loot distribution. No more drama. People get annoyed because they are not lucky, but its not the fault of the loot council or myself.
Basically, you loot something you need, keep it. You dont want it, people that need roll. If we see there is a specific items that need special treatment, people link the item they want to replace, those with lowest ilvl in that slot (counting gem slot as +10 ilvl roughly) we let the lowest roll. Most often people let the one with biggest gain to get it.

Apply are taken for bosses on farm with people that dont need the boss letting their spot.


Is it perfect? Not completely, because you still have to keep an eye on things, but man, no more headache or drama is golden.

I just wish we had double the amount of coins though...

However on another subject, I hope blizz revert the GCD changes and the idiotic pruning of abilities.

Also, bring back class sets please.

[Raelbo]

It sucks for B,D,C, and E but the second that happens, they need to leave that guild and find a different one. If enough people don't want to deal with that crap, A's guild dies pretty quickly.

One would think so. But the reality is that this doesn't happen. What actually happens is that game just lands up with a bunch of unhappy, disillusioned, pissed off players who either become toxic themselves or leave the game.

As I keep on saying, Blizzard's rationale for the removal of ML is that, when you place the power of deciding who gets rewarded in the hands of players, it's going to result in disputes. This fantastic idea that the problem will resolve itself because players will learn to do the right thing has been proven false by the abundance of data collected over more than a decade.

[Levogames]

I dont think this is a personal loot issue. More like an leadership issue. Mythic raiders do mythic things and those who cant are not mythic raiders.

Mythic raiders do mythic things but everyone is allowed to go go to a Mythic raid without any knowledge of the game.

I asked my guild with 7/8MM and they all 100% agree with bringing back Master Loot.
I asked the guild that I left and, surprise, the 5 carried were the ones who prefer PL and Ashvane is still undefeated because of them

[Lenis]

I am the GM of a CE guild. We clear mythic raids before a new one comes. We raid 3 nights. The loot change had us worried for few reasons, mainly:

How do we optimise loot drops to ensure our raid can kill bosses. Basically if dps is required, give dps priority, if boss hits hard, give tank priority etc.
How do you test a new apply in mythic (because heroic is not adequate for testing) without removing the chance of a loot from a guildie.

3 raids later:

No more headache with loot distribution. No more drama. People get annoyed because they are not lucky, but its not the fault of the loot council or myself.
Basically, you loot something you need, keep it. You dont want it, people that need roll. If we see there is a specific items that need special treatment, people link the item they want to replace, those with lowest ilvl in that slot (counting gem slot as +10 ilvl roughly) we let the lowest roll. Most often people let the one with biggest gain to get it.

Apply are taken for bosses on farm with people that dont need the boss letting their spot.


Is it perfect? Not completely, because you still have to keep an eye on things, but man, no more headache or drama is golden.

I just wish we had double the amount of coins though...

However on another subject, I hope blizz revert the GCD changes and the idiotic pruning of abilities.

Also, bring back class sets please.

Personal loot existed before you know. It was an option. No one is asking to remove Personal Loot. They are asking to bring back choice. Your guild could still be using Personal Loot even with Master Loot as an option.

[psyquest]

Personal loot existed before you know. It was an option. No one is asking to remove Personal Loot. They are asking to bring back choice. Your guild could still be using Personal Loot even with Master Loot as an option.

If choice was given we would go back to master loot, most likely.

and after 15+ years, I know how loot distribution has evolved and what was and is available.

Blizzard removed the choice to satisfy casual players. That is a fact. Does it please raiding mythic guilds, nope.

[Malikath]

It looks to me in this thread that most people against ML are either carebear-lfr players or just plain egoistical people without understanding of how loot councils work.

Thats fine, the egoistical carebear players got what they wanted anyway, as allways.

until they don't, but by then the game will be shutdown.
it's ok, it's not like any company is stupid enough to ever appeal to them again after literally every casulol targeting game is failing right now as character action and fighting games are experiencing a resurgence alongside the "dark souls-like" genre flourishing with a myriad of successors and rivals.
they're just coming to grips with being irrelevant again.