Game Design Article about Classic Vs BFA Analysis:

[satanicway]

This is the link for an article discussing the game design behind Classic WOW versus "Modern WOW".

Link: https://www.thegamersage.com/post/wo...esign-analysis

It is a long article, which makes many references to game designers, some famous players, and many other writers of articles on important gaming sites, and it has a more academic approach than just an opinative posting.

This thread is not to start a "version war", but to maybe open the discussion about what makes people feel it is so different to play Classic then BFA.

[Granyala]

- Dedication and hard work. You need to play long hours and put time into it, but when you accomplish something you feel rewarded.
- The slower pace of combat enabled you to enjoy the game more and understand what your character is doing better.

1) No, when I am finally done with sth in classic I merely feel relieved that the boredom is over and a wee bit frustrated that I wasted so much time on what should be a simple task (like collecting 10 bear asses).

2) Theoretically when the game is completely new, yes. Considering that I am a veteran of 12 years and there is nothing to learn anymore: pure frustration about the fact that the game does not value my time and deliberately wastes it at every friggin opportunity. Also long corpse runs + wPvP just suck.

I agree that socially, classic feels more like playing with people and less playing with bots but I do miss the shared tags a lot. It is again frustrating and time wasting having to work against people that have no interest in grouping because drop rates are shitty enough as it is w/o having to farm for 2. My friend and I abandoned many a quest because we had 1 item of 20 or so needed (for both) after killing 10 mobs. Having to kill around 200 just to get some meaningless leveling quest done is insanely boring.

I'm not saying BfA does everything right. I have plenty of beefs with it (e.g.: excessive RNG, constant resets invalidating time spent, daily brickwall limitations), to the point that I am no longer interested in dedicating much time to it. Classic has it's own sore spots though and in many ways BfA feels more fluid, more refined, more fun to play.

[satanicway]

1) No, when I am finally done with sth in classic I merely feel relieved that the boredom is over and a wee bit frustrated that I wasted so much time on what should be a simple task (like collecting 10 bear asses).

2) Theoretically when the game is completely new, yes. Considering that I am a veteran of 12 years and there is nothing to learn anymore: pure frustration about the fact that the game does not value my time and deliberately wastes it at every friggin opportunity. Also long corpse runs + wPvP just suck.

I agree that socially, classic feels more like playing with people and less playing with bots but I do miss the shared tags a lot. It is again frustrating and time wasting having to work against people that have no interest in grouping because drop rates are shitty enough as it is w/o having to farm for 2. My friend and I abandoned many a quest because we had 1 item of 20 or so needed (for both) after killing 10 mobs. Having to kill around 200 just to get some meaningless leveling quest done is insanely boring.

I'm not saying BfA does everything right. I have plenty of beefs with it (e.g.: excessive RNG, constant resets invalidating time spent, daily brickwall limitations), to the point that I am no longer interested in dedicating much time to it. Classic has it's own sore spots though and in many ways BfA feels more fluid, more refined, more fun to play.

Yet not everyone seems to feel like that. =X
I don't believe the article said that it was a clear majorital feeling, since it presented arguments that point in your direction too.

Why are you playing classic if you are not enjoying it? We have BFA live, with new content too. Just to understand why you were forcing yourselve to play it if you didnt enjoy, not saying that you should or shouldnt.

[potis]

Why are you playing classic if you are not enjoying it? We have BFA live, with new content too. Just to understand why you were forcing yourselve to play it if you didnt enjoy, not saying that you should or shouldnt.

Because its "new" content to "eat up" for the majority, the same way every game in 2019 is.

Every semi-serious player that was done farming flying/neck spends their time in classic, and raidlogs on retail as an example to WoW.

Why do you think they released so perfectly in sync? Because Blizzard is dumb?

No one takes forever to level anymore, we are what? 1 month into Classic and even the guy that quit in TBC to get his shit together childhood friend with 3 kids now is around level 55 too.

[Jurwi]

I'm not saying BfA does everything right. I have plenty of beefs with it (e.g.: excessive RNG, constant resets invalidating time spent, daily brickwall limitations), to the point that I am no longer interested in dedicating much time to it. Classic has it's own sore spots though and in many ways BfA feels more fluid, more refined, more fun to play.

And this exactly why I think "Classic+" as in Classic but with bunch of QoL improvements like the shared tags from retail would've actually been amazing. Hell, it would've been GotY material. Yea, it would've been faster to level up, you would not have had to spend 10 days in game to get to max level. But would that really been a bad thing? Like, really?

[JustaWarlock]

1)Considering that I am a veteran of 12 years

If you've only been playing for 12 years I don't think that really qualifies you as a veteran.

[Blackmist]

Fuck your shitty ad block hating site.

[MasterHamster]

We need more articles such as these. I hope the success of Classic will make game developers, not just Blizzard, to take a few steps back and properly analyze WHY a 15 year old game is blowing every prediction out of the water.
Maybe not even just for WoW but other games as well. Trying to capture what made WoW Classic such an incredibly potent game to hook players. As you spent 30 minutes killing the same mobs for 10 quest items, what was it that made you keep going? Ah right, because the overall game makes that quest still seem worth doing. You need the exp, you can only skip so many quests before you find yourself still mindlessly killing mobs to level up.

And those mobs drops things that are worth selling. With professions not completely destroyed, all those white items can be thrown on the AH and make a buck for your trouble.
WoW Classic comes together so well, its a mix of slow tedious elements with small incremental rewards that feel like they matter along the way. I can say without a doubt that I care more about any alt I've leveled so far in Classic than my BFA characters. Im not even close to 60, and there's so much to see again. A talent point, a new weapon in my bags that I can't wait to be able to equip, a bunch of health potions and stat food buffs that matter. Hell, one of my chars recently hit lvl 30 and I feel more invested in that character than any 120 I had in BFA. In BFA my character is just a passenger on a free ride to see the latest Theme Park ride Blizzard opened.

"Modern WoW" has been on a slippery slope for so long it effectively switched demographic. Classic and BFA are so different they can barely be compared anymore. BFA may be a better "game" from a production-value standpoint, but its a shitty MMORPG in comparison.

[Mendzia]

Fuck your shitty ad block hating site.

This, lol.
I literally close the sites like this immediately and never going back again when fullscreen box pop ups.

[JstAGySyngWhtHThnks]

intereseting read.
it will be interesting to see what happens.

[Relapses]

This is the link for an article discussing the game design behind Classic WOW versus "Modern WOW".

Link: https://www.thegamersage.com/post/wo...esign-analysis

It is a long article, which makes many references to game designers, some famous players, and many other writers of articles on important gaming sites, and it has a more academic approach than just an opinative posting.

This thread is not to start a "version war", but to maybe open the discussion about what makes people feel it is so different to play Classic then BFA.

A long, meandering article that barely has a cohesive point and propagates the absolutely fucking idiotic idea that WotLK sucked because that's when subscriber growth ended.

Fuck this article.

- - - Updated - - -

"Modern WoW" has been on a slippery slope for so long it effectively switched demographic. Classic and BFA are so different they can barely be compared anymore. BFA may be a better "game" from a production-value standpoint, but its a shitty MMORPG in comparison.

...in your opinion.

WoW's biggest issue is that it appeals to an enormous playerbase. A playerbase that largely doesn't ever visit a forum or give the faintest fuck about how the game plays out. This article correctly identifies this fact then doubles down on the fallacy that because Classic is currently successful that WoW must've really screwed the pooch when Blizzard began to change things more accessible. The author of the article points to WotLK as the beginning of the end because that's when sub growth stopped. This is wrong for two reasons: 1.) The long term success of Classic is yet unknown and 2.) It's infuriatingly stupid to support any argument with subscriber levels since we don't have complete information.

Perhaps I'm too pragmatic for my own good but I would prefer to look at this from the angle that WoW wouldn't still be here today had the changes not be made. Regardless, it's still wayyyy too early to say whether Classic will have long term success and it's certainly too early to begin fantasizing about a version of retail WoW sans-accessibility.

[Snackpack]

I woke up this morning hoping there would be a new Classic vs. Retail thread and I was not disappointed.

Also, the premise of the article is "Is one of the versions better?"

[Eveningforest]

That was a good article, thanks.
Spot on regarding the time investment in the world. The slow combat, big zones, long travel times, having to be aware of your surroundings when pulling, etc all add to the sense of immersion. It's relaxing and feels satisfying. Socialization with other players is more meaningful and friends are being made again.
It's exactly the kind of Wow I personally prefer to play.

[satanicway]

A long, meandering article that barely has a cohesive point and propagates the absolutely fucking idiotic idea that WotLK sucked because that's when subscriber growth ended.

Fuck this article.

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Seems you love WOTLK. =D
But you should be more respectful I believe. =X

1.) The long term success of Classic is yet unknown and 2.) It's infuriatingly stupid to support any argument with subscriber levels since we don't have complete information.

I believe even the article points out that the data is not enough to prove it. /shurg

Perhaps I'm too pragmatic for my own good but I would prefer to look at this from the angle that WoW wouldn't still be here today had the changes not be made. Regardless, it's still wayyyy too early to say whether Classic will have long term success and it's certainly too early to begin fantasizing about a version of retail WoW sans-accessibility.

Your "pragmatism" is just baseless as any other assumption.
The idea of an analysis and a discussion is to understand things and improve.

Game Design is far from being a mastered subject, even for great designers like Blizzard team.

[Granyala]

Yet not everyone seems to feel like that. =X
Why are you playing classic if you are not enjoying it?

Obviously, that's why we have wildly different games.

Mostly friends nagging and wanting to play with me. It's okay when I play with them but I'd rather visit my dentist than playing classic solo.

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If you've only been playing for 12 years I don't think that really qualifies you as a veteran.

Yeah I didn't play vanilla b/c I didn't have DSL at the time.
Still, I am a veteran, since I know most quests w/o having to look much, know the zones, know the combat / bosses etc.

There really isn't anything new for me to discover in classic.

[satanicway]

Obviously, that's why we have wildly different games.

Mostly friends nagging and wanting to play with me. It's okay when I play with them but I'd rather visit my dentist than playing classic solo.

Makes a lot of sense!
That is why we need many different games being produced, it is a very personal experience.

I also am more motivated by friends playing then by myself playing alone.

[lummiuster]

This is the link for an article discussing the game design behind Classic WOW versus "Modern WOW".

Link: https://www.thegamersage.com/post/wo...esign-analysis

It is a long article, which makes many references to game designers, some famous players, and many other writers of articles on important gaming sites, and it has a more academic approach than just an opinative posting.

This thread is not to start a "version war", but to maybe open the discussion about what makes people feel it is so different to play Classic then BFA.

Maaan this article resumes exactly what I have been saying for years. WOTLK is the game mentality that killed wow period.
- Vanilla = 1-3 millions growth in subscription per year
- TBC = 1-3 millions growth in subscription per year
- WOTLK = first time growth was negative.
Let's assume there are two different MMO style. Some players like classic game style while others like the modern wow game style (different taste its natural). If you are part of those who liked WOTLK, please dont give feedback regarding Classic because you dont belong to that group.

[Pper]

haha
Love these threads
Played classic 15 years ago and I'm playing it right now but come on
Retail is 10x better
as soon as you have finished all quests and cleared all dungeons in classic there is literally no content
Classic has so little content I don't know how to tell you
I'll probably just finish all quests and then let that game go, that's the only good content at the moment

and it's so god damn slow I feel like I'm in a coma sometimes
the only challenge in that game is that you literally can not play your character sometimes
either you are not allowed to cast/attack because you will pull aggro or you can not attack because you are out of ressources
if you really think that this is good game design in any way, then you are a fool

Most casters/healers in the raids are literally AFKing because they are out of mana
How is that good game design
it's vomit inducing

items are literally designed towards a single class specialisation
that's so bad holy mother of god, as a shadow priest I can't wear my tier sets
but why would I want that anyway, if the sets made me deal any more damage I'd probably pull aggro after one mind blast in the raid instead of two

let's not begin to talk about PvP
good thing there are no arenas in classic, the classes have never been more imbalanced, it's a literal sh*tfest

there is so much wrong with classic I could go on for multiple pages

don't get me wrong I don't want you to stop playing classic, hope you have fun for the next two years or so but stop starting dumb thread where you try to compare retail and classic (I know you won't stop and tomorrow there will be another thread telling everyone how glorious classic is and how bad retail)

[Relapses]

Seems you love WOTLK. =D
But you should be more respectful I believe. =X

Why should I be respectful of an article that does nothing but provide improper reasoning for an impossible conclusion? WotLK isn't my favorite expansion but it is, without a shadow of doubt, the most successful expansion Blizzard ever developed and it's intellectually dishonest to take away from this fact with unprovable conjecture.

I believe even the article points out that the data is not enough to prove it. /shurg

...after already concluding that WotLK was, "the first failed expansion."

Your "pragmatism" is just baseless as any other assumption.
The idea of an analysis and a discussion is to understand things and improve.

It may be baseless but there's still an incredibly active community for WoW and the game is still around today. I submit that the changes that were made didn't make the game inherently worse or less appealing as this article seems to suggest, but rather that it was made to appease the lowest common denominator... the countless players who never participate in these discussions but whose collective opinions and preferred methods of playing mean far more than a few angry people yelling about how great the game was before it changed.

Game Design is far from being a mastered subject, even for great designers like Blizzard team.

I'll provide you an olive branch here and say that you are very correct here. But unlike the author I disagree with the assertion that Blizzard lost its way by introducing accessibility features. They made decisions that kept the company in business. You can disagree with the direction taken but I really strongly dislike the argument that had Blizzard just kept the game like it was in Vanilla/TBC that WoW's subscriber growth would have remained exponential.

[Notdev]

Maaan this article resumes exactly what I have been saying for years. WOTLK is the game mentality that killed wow period.
- Vanilla = 1-3 millions growth in subscription per year
- TBC = 1-3 millions growth in subscription per year
- WOTLK = first time growth was negative.
Let's assume there are two different MMO style. Some players like classic game style while others like the modern wow game style (different taste its natural). If you are part of those who liked WOTLK, please dont give feedback regarding Classic because you dont belong to that group.

This is a ridiculous conclusion. Blizzard could have made perfect changes every single xpac and they would have still eventually seen a decline. The game is old. It gets old. It's not for everyone all the time. People also get old. 15 (5 at the time). year old games with dated graphics and a subscription don't appeal to most new gamers. Wow picked up players in vanilla/bc because it was new.

Not to mention wotlk was the conclusion of the main storyline from the wc3 rts's. The reason most people played wow in the first place.

I agree lfd wasn't great for the game but imo it is ridiculous to claim wotlk sucked because growth slowed down/stopped.

Also I heard it's impossible to like two things and liking wotlk excludes you from liking classic

Edit: also claiming wotlk had "negative growth" is wrong. Went from 11m at the start to 12m. And that includes the first ever year long content drout. Decline didn't start until cata.