H Ashvane horribly tuned for small raids

[DazManianDevil]

Yeah my guild is retarded for my standards, and they still manage to down her with 70% of the raid on alts and only one actually hard-carrying because he is bored and joins us, so instead of having the relog on mains, i let them try ashvane on their alts.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

If the 15% loggers can kill her in second bubble, everyone can.

You can check the rest, since i had them relog to mains at Queen's Court instead of Ashvane this time, and you can check previous logs, the OP Warrior friend isnt needed, he just joins for the lulz when bored, allowing our other shitty friends/familiars to play their alts.

I dont have anything to hide, boss is a joke if people actually play and listen, which i stand by what i said, bad calls.

Conclave was horribly tuned for 10man, Mekkatorque was horribly tuned for 10man, Ashvane, isnt.

Oof, that warrior is doing some work. I haven't seen BM hunter parses that bad since I raided EP /s
On topic, as others have pointed out it seems like there are a lot of un-confronted issues in the roster more-so than the fight itself. Funny enough, my group couldn't kill H Azshara with 25 people but when we slimmed it down to 12 it became a cake walk.
Most bosses this tier seem to follow that pattern tbh. The last time I raided H we were getting all corals in one bang and ignoring second set of beams.

[ryklin]

my guild is done with the tier on mythic now (just recently got M azshara), but we did 10 or 11H ashvane months ago on an alt night once
really not that bad, bubbles can be a bit of a pain, I agree, but just actually swap to them
RL can open enemy dmg taken on details and tell people that arent doing anything to them to fix that

[iamthedevil]

or just replace the shitty people / get them to know how to learn their class and do mechanics

If the solution for smaller guilds and realms was only so simple...

[Deja Thoris]

Simple logic means the OP is correct, despite all the people flopping their colossal, method level raiding dongers out here.

If 60% of a 10 man raid is affected by a mechanic, and only 30% of a 20 man raid or 20% of a 30 man raid you are actually arguing its not poorly tuned?

Jesus Christ but theres some logic impaired people here.

[Relapses]

Simple logic means the OP is correct, despite all the people flopping their colossal, method level raiding dongers out here.

If 60% of a 10 man raid is affected by a mechanic, and only 30% of a 20 man raid or 20% of a 30 man raid you are actually arguing its not poorly tuned?

Jesus Christ but theres some logic impaired people here.

Is that a tuning issue or a mechanic design issue? This kind of debate happened frequently when Blizzard tuned both 10 and 25M content but is less prevalent in flex raiding since the easiest solution is to just add players. If Blizzard retunes the encounter to be objectively easier at some threshold, it stands to reason that if a certain guild is struggling at a larger raid size they would feel compelled to bench players. The current situation isn't the best but it has a solution that doesn't negatively impact anybody other than raid groups stubbornly apprehensive to adding new people to their group.

(Side note: I feel like I've had this exact discussion with you at some point in the heated debates I used to have over 10H raiding.)

[Mister Cheese]

3 healing a 12 man and your healers are upset that they have to heal 17 people when the mythic 20 strat involves 3 healers. Your healers sound like baddies.

[Hoofey]

Before I start I just want to say that I realize that people have different priorities in life and that some people might not prioritize raiding as much as others.

Now, having said that, I can also say that I have been a raidleader/officer and I used to analyze logs back in my mythic raiding days, and from what I can see in your logs... Well, its not looking good. Even at a casual level.

Starting off, I do want to point out that you guys arent very well geared. Ashvane is a boss that becomes easier the more gear you have, as phases are based on boss hp. Your average ilvl on your Queens Court kill was 427, with the ilvls ranging from 421 to 439. Going back some weeks just lowers the ilvl more and more, down to some people having 400-ish during the start of Ashvane progression. Which brings me to my first question; Are you guys doing m+ for gear? Plenty of upgrades to be had there, even if you just do a +5 for the Titan Residuum. Doing stuff outside of raids is important if you want to progress at a steady pace.

Now, when you start adding things like your players using AoE major essences like Purifing Blast on most fights(BM hunter) and that your greylogging frostmage isnt even using his Guardian of Azeroth ability at all on like any fight, the issues start adding up, and the raid-dps goes down.
You said that your players are good, but from just scratching the surface I can already tell that you arent very experienced in raiding if this is what you think is good. Many of your players are using the wrong traits and wrong essences.

Looking at the skillcast timeline, your players are also playing the game wrong.



Take this as an example. What is going on here? You cant see the entire thing, but this is a 20 second window on the first boss where your player used 3 spells. Watching the replay,- the boss casts Overwhelming Barrage, which is an ability that doesnt require that much movement. You just dodge and find your opening and continue dpsing. He didnt get hit, so he shouldnt have to move this much. Granted, he does have the frost debuff, but with the movement he has done so far theres no need to move like this. Most of the time you can weave in movement with instant-casts. He moves around just as much when he has toxic sometimes, which makes it even weirder.
I found a ton of other examples like this, where people just derp around doing nothing for no reason.
Tell your mage to get a macro that cancels Iceblock btw, sitting 10 seconds in IB isnt good for your dps.



What you see here is the dps done to the boss (ashvane) during the first P2 on a good attempt (not a kill). As you can see, its nothing to write home about, but you're also not using BL here. Also, why dont you have everyone save their CDs and use BL with 2 min CDs in the second P1, where you are struggling? In most of the attempts I've seen, you've saved BL for the 2nd P2, where people are dead or just simply dont have any CDs or just running around doing unnecessary stuff. (Why are people breaking corals in the 2nd P2?)
Another strat is to use BL on the 2nd shield to shorten that phase a bit, seeing how the raid starts to struggle during that phase, and people would have CDs back up. It takes you guys a full 2 minutes to get back to P2 again, and by then your raid is struggling like crazy because of all the corals spewing out bubbles.


I dont want to come off as too harsh, seeing how this is a fairly casual guild, but as you can see there are a lot of things your players and raid can do to improve. I barely just scratched the surface here. I could go into the fact that people arent using healing pots or healthstones before they die, but I dont have time to do a complete detailed analysis.

Now, this is by no means any attempt at self-bragging, but I started playing again 3-4 weeks ago casually, and I pulled like 20-25k dps in my first raid this tier. I was completely clueless about traits and essences, and went into the raid blind tactic-wise.
Skip forward to today and I'm doing 40-45k ST dps without having touched mythic raiding. (Not anything special by todays standards ofc) Granted, I am still in the same guild I was in before (world 300-ish) so I do have access to full HC clears, but my point is that there are many things your players could do in order to improve themselves.
While being a former raider helps a ton when it comes to dpsing, I really didnt do much to get up to this level.

There are many good guides and tons of information out there, and spending 30 min- 1 hr to figure out whats good for your class\specc is worth way more than just banging your heads into a wall when there are obvious issues plaguing your raid.

So yeah.. Tell your players to do some research into their specc and class. Tell them to watch good players do raids on twitch and see what they do. Make them figure out why said players do what they do. Maybe get some addons\weakauras to better manage buffs\debuffs.

It doesnt take that much effort, and its definitely worth it in the long run.

[asil]

Awful lot of assumptions here...all of which are wrong. 2 phasing the boss, cds on softshell phases, lusting on 2nd softshell, ignoring lasers in 2nd softshell, everyone with immunities using them for bubbles, stacking bubbles on the warrior tank who just zerker rages out of it.

How about not just assuming everyone is retarded.

Friend, ashvane is so absurdly easy on heroic we've 1 healed it with multiple alts in a small weekend group when nobody shows up. If you wipe 60 times to heroic ashvane, it isn't group size causing your issues.

[Deja Thoris]

Is that a tuning issue or a mechanic design issue? This kind of debate happened frequently when Blizzard tuned both 10 and 25M content but is less prevalent in flex raiding since the easiest solution is to just add players. If Blizzard retunes the encounter to be objectively easier at some threshold, it stands to reason that if a certain guild is struggling at a larger raid size they would feel compelled to bench players. The current situation isn't the best but it has a solution that doesn't negatively impact anybody other than raid groups stubbornly apprehensive to adding new people to their group.

(Side note: I feel like I've had this exact discussion with you at some point in the heated debates I used to have over 10H raiding.)

I lump them into the same bucket if I'm honest. I guess technically its "mechanic design" but the outcome is that its artificially harder for smaller groups than for larger ones.

We probably did have long arguments over 10 man. I was passionately for keeping the hardest difficulty at the smaller size. 25 man had the prestige, yada yada and I don't think it was beyond the wit of a multi billion dollar company to tune the two separate avenues. Regardless, its not what Ion wants so it won't happen (but if I did I'd go back to it in a heartbeat)

[MrLachyG]

*snip*

whose logs are you going off? did OP link them? if he did I can't see them

[Caperfin]

Friend, ashvane is so absurdly easy on heroic we've 1 healed it with multiple alts in a small weekend group when nobody shows up. If you wipe 60 times to heroic ashvane, it isn't group size causing your issues.

Agreed. at that point it's a player problem not a the size causing issues.

[Thrallinor]

whose logs are you going off? did OP link them? if he did I can't see them

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kGBbqnJ2VCXMrazT

[Hoofey]

whose logs are you going off? did OP link them? if he did I can't see them

Found them myself.

Looks like someone else did as well. Obviously more to it than just raid tuning.

[Drattz]

Found them myself.

Looks like someone else did as well. Obviously more to it than just raid tuning.

Yeah I mean with that group there are at least 5 dps and a healer that should be dropped before blaming the tuning.

[noladrew]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kGBbqnJ2VCXMrazT

oooof looked at their queens court kill from tonight. 7:30 time and 3 healed and 11 man group of which 2 healers got out healed by a tank. wtf are you guys doing? no offense but you have a lot of improving to do just from a decision making standpoint not just a gameplay standpoint. Coming here and crying about the raid difficulty when you're setting yourselves up for failure is kind of dumb.

[Kief]

After checking your guilds logs, it’s certainly not the boss that is poorly tuned, you just have almost all of your players completely unable to play their classes.

On the kill you had 2 dps get beat by a tank, another 2 dps on identical dps and almost no one above 25k dps in 420-430 item level.

Your healers are alo all atrocious.
It’s pretty harsh criticism to hear but honestly I think most (if not all) of your players would see massive improvement by simply reading their classes respective icy-veins guide for 10 minutes.

[Osmeric]

Normal mode is the intended mode for raid groups that don't want to bench anyone.

Heroic assumes you are exerting at least some quality control over your raiders (or overgearing it to compensate for the underperformers).

[potis]

Oof, that warrior is doing some work. I haven't seen BM hunter parses that bad since I raided EP /s
On topic, as others have pointed out it seems like there are a lot of un-confronted issues in the roster more-so than the fight itself. Funny enough, my group couldn't kill H Azshara with 25 people but when we slimmed it down to 12 it became a cake walk.
Most bosses this tier seem to follow that pattern tbh. The last time I raided H we were getting all corals in one bang and ignoring second set of beams.

Nah, bosses dont follow a pattern, its just level of skill of the raid overall that makes things tedious, overall some things get easier or harder depending on raid size, but its always, 100% the raid skill issue in the end because not everyone plays at the same level, especially in casual environments or hell, even in top 200 guilds they have this issue.

Some people adapt faster, react faster and are more confident into dealing with things, and the majority..If things arent going as planned, they panic and give up, this is true for most players that dont trust their skills/play the class at a decent level.

Its basically how some pugs clear the HC raid the first few days with a mix of alts from the proper mythic raiders and what not, its overall a very high skilled raid that could easily be a guild, probably in the top 100s or even more if they actually cared/bothered.

[Ealyssa]

How about not just assuming everyone is retarded.

Understand that it is a bit hard when you're here complaining about heroic Ashvane when any PUG clear heroic in less than 2 hours nowadays.

You can be bad at this game, that's fine. But at some point you have to admit it to yourself... The problem very clearly isn't the boss. It's the terrible level of your raid group.

And that's the absolute truth. No matter how angry it makes you feel.

[potis]

Is that a tuning issue or a mechanic design issue? This kind of debate happened frequently when Blizzard tuned both 10 and 25M content but is less prevalent in flex raiding since the easiest solution is to just add players. If Blizzard retunes the encounter to be objectively easier at some threshold, it stands to reason that if a certain guild is struggling at a larger raid size they would feel compelled to bench players. The current situation isn't the best but it has a solution that doesn't negatively impact anybody other than raid groups stubbornly apprehensive to adding new people to their group.

(Side note: I feel like I've had this exact discussion with you at some point in the heated debates I used to have over 10H raiding.)

Nah, the problem is their mechanic design choices at certain bosses, some bosses are designed in a way to work around the ability having X targets.

But then the next boss suddenly has the same logic ability, designed from 2 at 10man, to 6 at 30man, and you wonder "WTF Blizzard".

Ashvane isnt one of those fights.

Conclave in BoD was one such retarded mechanic, 4 raptors in 10man, 4 raptors in 30man, 20 people extra to stun/destroy the raptors, Briny Bubble isnt such an ability, it can be countered by half the classes with immunities and it can be controlled very easily compared to MEGA SPEEDING 2 SHOTTING RAPTOR BOYS.