Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[Shiza]

This is very true and a point that is often glossed over. The Horde's rebellion started by Thrall forced the Alliance of Lordaeron to divert their attention solely on the south against the orcs, leaving the north defenseless and ripe for the taking by the Lich King. We can see in the opening cinematic how the High Command of the Alliance dismissed any claim of a plague in the north, because they were too busy trying to contain the threat posed by the orcs in the south. We could say that Thrall was an indirect cause that led to the downfall of Lordaeron, because if he had never started his rebellion, the Alliance would have been able to bolster the defences of the north against the Scourge and the Cult of the Damned.

We can also make the point that the claims that without Thrall Azeroth would have been doomed against Deathwing is bullshit as Legion stated that chosen ones and prophecies are bullshit and it's up to the inhabitants of Azeroth to saves themselves, which they are perfectly able to do.

[allawyn]

And, you know, because the Horde had violated the Alliance Internment Act, annihilated the Alliance garrison at Southshore, hijacked several Alliance vessels, and plunged southern Lordaeron into a state of conflict.

So what you are saying is that the Horde should have accepted slavery like a good slave race?

[mickybrighteyes]

We can also make the point that the claims that without Thrall Azeroth would have been doomed against Deathwing is bullshit as Legion stated that chosen ones and prophecies are bullshit and it's up to the inhabitants of Azeroth to saves themselves, which they are perfectly able to do.

didn't the person who was prophesized to deal with the issue still spearhead the events and actually fulfill the prophecy anyways?

[wushootaki]

There are also friendly yellow troggs and wolfs in the alliance starting area, this isn’t done because there neutral and are looking for peace it’s just a game mechanic.

The horde got screwed when it came to dev time for classic so they probably just took some alliance mobs and didn’t bother to change the tags.

Do you even know the lore? Kul Tiras was in Durotar before WoW existed. It was done on purpose.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Do you even know the lore? Kul Tiras was in Durotar before WoW existed. It was done on purpose.

Kul Tiran’s being in durotar lore wise before wow was a game is irrelevant to what they are tagged as in game. The lore doesn’t have a green red yellow tag system to tell who’s friend or foe.

[Varodoc]

So what you are saying is that the Horde should have accepted slavery like a good slave race?

No, what I am saying is that the Horde's rebellion was an indirect cause of the fall of Lordaeron. While what you brought up is a moral issue and there are two or more sides you can look at it, my point is not a moral issue, it's a fact. You can see from the very first cinematic of the Human campaign that the Alliance of Lordaeron was so concerned with the Horde that they completely neglected the Plague (except for Dalaran, which was mocked for thinking this Plague was a greater threat than the Horde on the loose).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So what you are saying is that the Horde should have accepted slavery like a good slave race?

When you invade a planet to try and wipe every one on it out and they let you live even as slaves ya you should accept it. The orcs should have been wiped out for invading Azeroth.

[Super Dickmann]

No, what I am saying is that the Horde's rebellion was an indirect cause of the fall of Lordaeron. While what you brought up is a moral issue and there are two or more sides you can look at it, my point is not a moral issue, it's a fact. You can see from the very first cinematic of the Human campaign that the Alliance of Lordaeron was so concerned with the Horde that they completely neglected the Plague (except for Dalaran, which was mocked for thinking this Plague was a greater threat than the Horde on the loose).

While you're partly right, you're overselling how capable Terenas would've been in dealing with it in the first place. The reason the orc breakouts, including such high profile figures as Doomhammer and Grom were essentially outsourced to folks like Blackmoore while he barely committed to it is that at that point he wasn't a particularly strong king. The Cult of the Damned is set up in Chronicle as taking advantage of existing social morays and was entirely off the radar of the king until it was already too late. This included having functional control of towns through cultists in high places.

[Mehrunes]

There are also friendly yellow troggs and wolfs in the alliance starting area, this isn’t done because there neutral and are looking for peace it’s just a game mechanic.

The horde got screwed when it came to dev time for classic so they probably just took some alliance mobs and didn’t bother to change the tags.

That'd be fine and dandy if the game didn't have quests, with quest text describing who and why we are killing.

Kul Tiran’s being in durotar lore wise before wow was a game is irrelevant to what they are tagged as in game. The lore doesn’t have a green red yellow tag system to tell who’s friend or foe.

The game doesn't have just green/ed/yellow tags. It also has a separate Horde/Alliance tag to show faction affiliation of certain NPCs.

[Soon-TM]

We can also make the point that the claims that without Thrall Azeroth would have been doomed against Deathwing is bullshit as Legion stated that chosen ones and prophecies are bullshit and it's up to the inhabitants of Azeroth to saves themselves, which they are perfectly able to do.

Actually Illidan did fulfill said prophecy... Just not in the way intended by that shiny windchime.

[PenguinChan]

The Horde isn't dead, the Horde just reverted back to WC3 / Every other expansion where they found out trying to get along with others means less death and war. It's nothing new, it's just boring because we've had it multiple times now. While I'm sure people will bitch about the leaders brown nosing the Alliance - they've done this in the past multiple times and then someone comes along and disrupts it. I'd rather we get an actual peace going, develop relationships that have something worth mentioning and actually introducing a division between characters that make multiple races uneasy / hate one another.

That said you don't need a peace / friendship to have this, but it sure feels like Blizzard won't be able to reach that state without it first.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That'd be fine and dandy if the game didn't have quests, with quest text describing who and why we are killing.




The game doesn't have just green/ed/yellow tags. It also has a separate Horde/Alliance tag to show faction affiliation of certain NPCs.

The quest show that the troggs are the aggressors and doesn’t at all hold up with them being yellow tagged. There yellow tagged for obvious reasons and there not lore ones.

I hope you're here to lend us a hand, <class>. After the last trogg attack, we could use all the help we can get.

I hear the buggers have been popping up all across the lands, and it seems Coldridge Valley is no exception. They've been spotted all over the hills to the southeast and near the frozen lake.

And that's not all, just a few nights ago, they attacked and overran our camp to the west!

We're a bit shorthanded here, <lad/lass>, and we need strong arms to help drive the troggs back.

https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=170/a-new-threat

[allawyn]

No, what I am saying is that the Horde's rebellion was an indirect cause of the fall of Lordaeron. While what you brought up is a moral issue and there are two or more sides you can look at it, my point is not a moral issue, it's a fact. You can see from the very first cinematic of the Human campaign that the Alliance of Lordaeron was so concerned with the Horde that they completely neglected the Plague (except for Dalaran, which was mocked for thinking this Plague was a greater threat than the Horde on the loose).

I see. I have to say, the cinematic showed the Alliance not taking the situation seriously at all. It didn't show them wanting to do something but not being able. It wasn't so much "We can't do anything about that until because of the Orcs", but more "thats not important, lets move on to something that matters".

[Varodoc]

I see. I have to say, the cinematic showed the Alliance not taking the situation seriously at all. It didn't show them wanting to do something but not being able. It wasn't so much "We can't do anything about that until because of the Orcs", but more "thats not important, lets move on to something that matters".

But that's the point. They didn't think it was important because they were under pressure due to the orcs breaking free throughout Lordaeron. They knew the Horde was on the move and needed to do something about it, especially after knowing just how dangerous orcs are (see: First and Second Wars). I can't blame them for thinking that the orcs were the real threat.

If Thrall never rebelled, Terenas wouldn't have had to send his army, including his two best paladins, south to deal with them. Which means that he could have better prepared himself against the Scourge rampage in the north.

[allawyn]

When you invade a planet to try and wipe every one on it out and they let you live even as slaves ya you should accept it. The orcs should have been wiped out for invading Azeroth.

This gets to a fundamental question. That the Orcs are to blame for being enslaved by the Legion. It would later extend to the view that the Alliance has the right to kill all decedents and any other race that might associate with them. I claim that, ironically, gets used to try and justify the Alliance as the good guys.

Of course, when it came to the end of the Legion story-arc, the is question was apparently not worth examining in favor of focusing almost completely on Alliance Lore.

- - - Updated - - -

But that's the point. They didn't think it was important because they were under pressure due to the orcs breaking free throughout Lordaeron. They knew the Horde was on the move and needed to do something about it, especially after knowing just how dangerous orcs are (see: First and Second Wars). I can't blame them for thinking that the orcs were the real threat

And my point is that I don't think it shows that. I think it shows they didn't think it was that important at all.

And, in any case, this whole part of the story is about discovering the truth, haveing the will to act, and conflict over what acts are justified. Not about not having enough troops.

[Varodoc]

That the Orcs are to blame for being enslaved by the Legion.

Which they are, even Grommash admits that to Thrall. He tells him something like "We brought that very curse upon us".

And my point is that I don't think it shows that. I think it shows they didn't think it was that important at all.

... And why did they think it wasn't important? Because they had a Horde on the loose to deal with. We're going in circles right now and we're actually agreeing.

And, in any case, this whole part of the story is about discovering the truth, haveing the will to act, and conflict over what acts are justified. Not about not having enough troops.

What does this even mean. Like, of course it was also about not having enough troops. if Lordaeron had enough troops to vanquish the Scourge then all those fancy words about "discovering the truth" of "what is really justified" wouldn't matter

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This gets to a fundamental question. That the Orcs are to blame for being enslaved by the Legion. It would later extend to the view that the Alliance has the right to kill all decedents and any other race that might associate with them. I claim that, ironically, gets used to try and justify the Alliance as the good guys.

Of course, when it came to the end of the Legion story-arc, the is question was apparently not worth examining in favor of focusing almost completely on Alliance Lore.

I wouldn’t say there descendants or the other races that hung out with the orcs but every single orc in Warcraft 1-3 baring thrall is fair game.

The same thing stands for the humans/dwarfs/gnomes and the elf's, the trolls should have wiped them out.

Invading monsters trying to wipe out the locals should get no pity.

[Noct678]

I wouldn’t say there descendants or the other races that hung out with the orcs but every single orc in Warcraft 1-3 baring thrall is fair game.

The same thing stands for the humans/dwarfs/gnomes and the elf's, the trolls should have wiped them out.

Invading monsters trying to wipe out the locals should get no pity.

Yea too bad the trolls couldn't wipe out the invaders but you know the titans wanted to have their way with things so they dropped the biggest amount of invaders onto the planet.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yea too bad the trolls couldn't wipe out the invaders but you know the titans wanted to have their way with things so they dropped the biggest amount of invaders onto the planet.

It’s a shame the great troll empire fell to aliens and mutants.

[Noct678]

It’s a shame the great troll empire fell to aliens and mutants.

Indeed a sad moment in history.