Proposals for a future justice system that might allow us to achieve a 0% recidivism

[cubby]

I'm not sure fucking around with someone's brain is the way to go. Nor do I think 0% recidivism is possible, short of just burying every criminal. However, lowering the recidivism rate is a noble goal. To that end, might I suggest:

1. Eliminate prisons for profit.

2. Prison should become a rehabilitation center. Job skills, health care (mental health), positive environment, etc. No more crime schools. Definitely do the time of the crime, but also have a positive exit strategy to rejoin society.

3. Non-violent crimes not showing up on background checks.


Those three things would dramatically change how many people return to the prison system.




(This of course after we fix the educational system in the United States)

[Calfredd]

I will admit it has some good ideas. I do think it's a cautionary tale about how the methods can be misused, which is why we need to move forward very carefully.

To be absolutely sure we're following A Clockwork Orange to the letter?

[Temp name]

It's humane and does not violate human rights since we are only doing it to rapists, murderers, and grievous assaulters.

They're still people, they still have human rights. You're still absolutely violating human rights by doing this.

A lot of states already chemically castrate pedophile rapists so forcibly mentally reprogramming should be considered a humane form of punishment since it's a form of punishment centered around rehabilitation.

Humane by contrast doesn't mean it's humane, especially when you're literally forcing someone to change their very being

What are your thoughts? Please do not bring up about how this violates human rights.

Oh, so you do know it violates them?

They didn't respect the rights of their victims, and I don't think it's cruel, I think it's very humane.

That doesn't mean they don't have rights. They're called RIGHTS, not privileges.


That out of the way: Something like this would only work if you perfectly shared the belief system of the people in charge, always will, and the people in charge are incorruptible. Because if it works so well on "the bad guys" then why not try it out on the people who did less bad things. Or the people who might do bad things. Or the people who just disagree? Or everyone so that everyone is happy?
It'll never work in real life

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You can threaten them to get consent.

Oh, so rapists aren't criminals then? Since, after all, they can just threaten their "victims" to get consent, which thereby makes it legal.

Cool, nice to know

[Shalcker]

So, we sometimes discuss politics in our guild, and we do come up with some interesting ideas. We want a world that is extremely safe from violence. But sadly for whatever reason we have high recidivism rates in my country (United States), we tried making the prison conditions harsher and longer sentencing but our recidivism rates for whatever reason are still high.

Basically we want to forcibly reprogram the worst criminals in such a way that they can never ever re-offend. We want this program to be an addition to their prison sentence. And some kind of regulation to keep forcible reprogramming limited to only those convicted of these crimes: Murder (both second and first degree, Rape, Grievous Assault, Torture). Someone driving 120 MPH in an 80 area would not qualify. We are only interested in enacting this extreme form of rehabilitation on monsterous people.

You mean Clockwork Orange?

Why not go with prison environment that would allow them to contribute to society in positive ways and feel valuable instead? (while still keeping them imprisoned)

[Amerissis]

So, what keeps whoever does this from (re)programming people before they commit these crimes? And while they're at it, why not program people to be docile consumer bots who never challenge the status quo? This whole technique should never be invented, it will only be used for 'evil'.

Besides, most of these crimes are done by people who haven't been caught before, so making sure the ones you catch will not repeat the offense is such a tiny fraction it's pretty much useless. As if serial killers are ever let out of prison anyway.

[Mythic-RaidLead]

They're still people, they still have human rights. You're still absolutely violating human rights by doing this.

I agree, they have human rights, after they become forcibly humanized, but not before.

Humane by contrast doesn't mean it's humane, especially when you're literally forcing someone to change their very being

We are forcing them to stop being monsters, I don't think what we are advocating is inhumane. Keeping them in the subhuman monsterous state even in prison indefinately is dangerous, they victimize each other or put the prison employees in harms way. There is no alternative solution than what I advocate for: Which is their prison sentence + consensual mandated reprogramming of their mind in some way.

Oh, so you do know it violates them?

That doesn't mean they don't have rights. They're called RIGHTS, not privileges.

They have the right to be rehabilitated and humane prison conditions, these are the rights of the subhuman, as all non-human but highly sentient animals like Chimps are entitled to. That's it. If they want all the rights that come with being human, they must become human first.

That out of the way: Something like this would only work if you perfectly shared the belief system of the people in charge, always will, and the people in charge are incorruptible. Because if it works so well on "the bad guys" then why not try it out on the people who did less bad things. Or the people who might do bad things. Or the people who just disagree? Or everyone so that everyone is happy?
It'll never work in real life

Put in more laws to prevent it from being used on lesser crimes. Perhaps a statue of some kind that only those at the time of offense must be minimum 16 years of age. Must be a very serious violent felony. The 8th amendment should prevent it from being used on lesser crimes or offenders who are too young (like 11 year olds at time of offense) since this extreme form of rehabilitation would be considered cruel if applied to a lesser crime.

Oh, so rapists aren't criminals then? Since, after all, they can just threaten their "victims" to get consent, which thereby makes it legal.

It's different when we do it. You seriously can't be comparing what we advocate for to rape...


Either way, people who are victims of these crimes probably wouldn't have any sympathy to the perpetrators, they absolutely deserve the clockwork orange treatment. If they refused, they most be manipulated into consenting.

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So, what keeps whoever does this from (re)programming people before they commit these crimes? And while they're at it, why not program people to be docile consumer bots who never challenge the status quo? This whole technique should never be invented, it will only be used for 'evil'.

Besides, most of these crimes are done by people who haven't been caught before, so making sure the ones you catch will not repeat the offense is such a tiny fraction it's pretty much useless. As if serial killers are ever let out of prison anyway.

The US constitution does. There is a reason we don't lock people up before they commit crimes. This technique as a mandated tool will only be authorized for the worst offenders.

[Calfredd]

I agree, they have human rights, after they become forcibly humanized, but not before.



We are forcing them to stop being monsters, I don't think what we are advocating is inhumane. Keeping them in the subhuman monsterous state even in prison indefinately is dangerous, they victimize each other or put the prison employees in harms way. There is no alternative solution than what I advocate for: Which is their prison sentence + consensual mandated reprogramming of their mind in some way.



They have the right to be rehabilitated and humane prison conditions, these are the rights of the subhuman, as all non-human but highly sentient animals like Chimps are entitled to. That's it. If they want all the rights that come with being human, they must become human first.



Put in more laws to prevent it from being used on lesser crimes. Perhaps a statue of some kind that only those at the time of offense must be minimum 16 years of age. Must be a very serious violent felony. The 8th amendment should prevent it from being used on lesser crimes or offenders who are too young (like 11 year olds at time of offense) since this extreme form of rehabilitation would be considered cruel if applied to a lesser crime.



It's different when we do it. You seriously can't be comparing what we advocate for to rape...


Either way, people who are victims of these crimes probably wouldn't have any sympathy to the perpetrators, they absolutely deserve the clockwork orange treatment. If they refused, they most be manipulated into consenting.

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The US constitution does. There is a reason we don't lock people up before they commit crimes. This technique as a mandated tool will only be authorized for the worst offenders.

Since you don't understand what the rights are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ation_and_text.

[tehealadin]

It's not unethical if it's done to rapists, murderers and grievous assaulters.
Even if we are 100% good at ending wrongful convictions, the recidivism will still not be 0%. I want to get a recidivism of 0% w/out the death penalty.
8th amendment of the constitution will prevent forcible mental reprogramming to be used in non serious crimes. The punishment must fit the crime so to speak.
Some states already do forced hormone therapy onto rapists, and it's done to sort of reprogram their thinking and this is legal. Why not go to the next level?

Open the door for this and how long before the list of crimes gets expanded? How long before you get some sort of despot, to expands it to include those who criticise the government, because it destabilises the country or whatever justification they might use? Maybe it never happens, but if you open that door then you open the door to such a possibility.

[Aeula]

No.

I’d rather have murderers and rapists walking the streets than give the government the power to alter people’s minds as they see fit. That’s far more dangerous.

I meaning fucking hell imagine if China used this method. Now imagine an equivalently evil government doing the same in your country. I’d rather put up with the crinimals.

[josykay]

Yeah, it isn't like similiar stuff was already tried, and the past experiences with chemical castration and Lobotomy were... let's they pretty underwhelming, with a shit ton of long term issues for the affected.
Also, what do you mean "doesn't violate human rights". Forced medical procedures are a prime example of a human rights violation.

[Mythic-RaidLead]

Yeah, it isn't like similiar stuff was already tried, and the past experiences with chemical castration and Lobotomy were... let's they pretty underwhelming, with a shit ton of long term issues for the affected.
Also, what do you mean "doesn't violate human rights". Forced medical procedures are a prime example of a human rights violation.

Uh... I live in a state where certain sex offenders who are 13 year old at time of offense still gets forcibly chemically castrated for life so clearly it's not something that is in the past. What I'm advocating for is quite different and less harsh, so if that doesn't violate human rights assuming the above doesn't violate human rights. Whether something violates human rights or not needs to be defined. Why is forced medical procedures the line? What if instead of a forced medical procedure, we threaten them with life long institutionalization in order to get their consent?

[Temp name]

I agree, they have human rights, after they become forcibly humanized, but not before.

So you don't agree that human beings have human rights, okay.

We are forcing them to stop being monsters, I don't think what we are advocating is inhumane. Keeping them in the subhuman monsterous state even in prison indefinately is dangerous, they victimize each other or put the prison employees in harms way. There is no alternative solution than what I advocate for: Which is their prison sentence + consensual mandated reprogramming of their mind in some way.

They aren't subhuman, they are human. They are human beings, that have human rights. You don't get to arbitrarily take those away.

They have the right to be rehabilitated and humane prison conditions, these are the rights of the subhuman, as all non-human but highly sentient animals like Chimps are entitled to. That's it. If they want all the rights that come with being human, they must become human first.

They have human rights because they are humans. They have the right to bodily autonomy, which means you cannot force them to do something.

Put in more laws to prevent it from being used on lesser crimes. Perhaps a statue of some kind that only those at the time of offense must be minimum 16 years of age. Must be a very serious violent felony. The 8th amendment should prevent it from being used on lesser crimes or offenders who are too young (like 11 year olds at time of offense) since this extreme form of rehabilitation would be considered cruel if applied to a lesser crime.

But.. What's to stop them from doing it to everyone anyway? They have the power to literally change the way your brain works, if they are corruptible at any level, at any point in time, they will be corrupted. You're basically handing them a "you win" button in life and hoping they won't push it. Of course they will.

It's different when we do it. You seriously can't be comparing what we advocate for to rape...

Oh, okay. So when you do something it's okay, but when someone else does it it's bad. Why are you somehow exempt from laws? Why can you force people to give consent but others can't? And if your answer is that what you're doing is right.. Well, what they're doing is right for them.

If the rules aren't fair, nothing that comes from those rules are fair.

[Amerissis]

The US constitution does. There is a reason we don't lock people up before they commit crimes. This technique as a mandated tool will only be authorized for the worst offenders.

Ah yes, the US constitution.

1) There are more countries in the world then the US, many who don't really care for human rights. They will get their hands on that technology too.
2) Not even the current president of the US adheres to the law, so how much is that constitution worth?
3) Things change. What do you do when the next president decides to abolish the constitution and legalize reprogramming everyone?

Neh, really bad idea. Some things are best left uninvented, like nuclear weapons (because Boy, did that go well).

[Pannonian]

I agree, they have human rights, after they become forcibly humanized, but not before.



We are forcing them to stop being monsters, I don't think what we are advocating is inhumane. Keeping them in the subhuman monsterous state even in prison indefinately is dangerous, they victimize each other or put the prison employees in harms way. There is no alternative solution than what I advocate for: Which is their prison sentence + consensual mandated reprogramming of their mind in some way.




They have the right to be rehabilitated and humane prison conditions, these are the rights of the subhuman, as all non-human but highly sentient animals like Chimps are entitled to. That's it. If they want all the rights that come with being human, they must become human first.



Put in more laws to prevent it from being used on lesser crimes. Perhaps a statue of some kind that only those at the time of offense must be minimum 16 years of age. Must be a very serious violent felony. The 8th amendment should prevent it from being used on lesser crimes or offenders who are too young (like 11 year olds at time of offense) since this extreme form of rehabilitation would be considered cruel if applied to a lesser crime.



It's different when we do it. You seriously can't be comparing what we advocate for to rape...


Either way, people who are victims of these crimes probably wouldn't have any sympathy to the perpetrators, they absolutely deserve the clockwork orange treatment. If they refused, they most be manipulated into consenting.

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The US constitution does. There is a reason we don't lock people up before they commit crimes. This technique as a mandated tool will only be authorized for the worst offenders.

That's not how human rights work, but i'm not surprised of you being confused by them given what you want to do to other people.

I think you would be a perfect candidate for your own program.

[d00mGuArD]

I don't believe in jail time as it does nothing to benefit anyone. I'd rather we focus on rehabilitation and I've come up with some crazy futuristic methods of rehabilitation. If a person is caught with murder or known to be physically harmful to others then I would do a genetic test to see if this person has genes that make them prone to violence. Something like the MAOA gene or Warrior gene and having it removed in favor of a more empathetic gene that would allow these people to be reintroduced into society. For rapists I would have them turned into women as a method to teach them to live the life of a woman, so they can learn to understand their side of the situation. Of course it wouldn't be done like today's transgender do it, as it's not very effective medical science. Something futuristic that can be done with 3 months to a year to turn them into a complete woman and then reintroduce them back to society.

My ideas require tech that doesn't exist but it's a fun thought experiment anyway.

I don't believe this would work. But mayyyybe with future tech in 300 years it will.
For now, the best would probably be longer jail time and harsher penalties

[PosPosPos]

Would be a great idea if it weren't for the fact it's the most abusable by those in and with power.

[lagiacrux]

Now apply this logic to all very serious crimes.

This is the idea that me and other guild officers and other guildies have been discussing. I'm pretty baffled that so little has been talked about for this idea. It's humane and does not violate human rights since we are only doing it to rapists, murderers, and grievous assaulters. A lot of states already chemically castrate pedophile rapists so forcibly mentally reprogramming should be considered a humane form of punishment since it's a form of punishment centered around rehabilitation.

thats not how human rights work.

also, you and your guild should probably be on a government watchlist ....

[Machismo]

They've made multiple movies about this, it's a terrible fucking idea. Giving the government that much power would inevitably lead to an abuse of that power.

We know this, because the government has already pulled this shit with shock therapy, lobotomies, and sterilizations.

[unbound]

But sadly for whatever reason we have high recidivism rates in my country (United States), we tried making the prison conditions harsher and longer sentencing but our recidivism rates for whatever reason are still high.

lol

That one sentence alone points to one of the major problems. You will have to think about it, but the answer is right there.

The other major issues include racism (the war on drugs was admitted to be largely an effort targeting minorities - https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikshe...ers-continues/) and poverty. We have such a massive wealth and income disparity in the US that it drives a great deal of the crime (https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...lity-and-crime).

Additionally, prison is become a for-profit industry, and you'll find that many contracts require that the prison population be kept high (http://www.njjn.org/uploads/digital-...rest,-9.13.pdf), so there isn't actually an incentive to reduce crime.

Furthermore, the US hasn't really been interested in rehabilitating criminals for over 40 years now (https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/rehab).

So, as for your idea, it may have some degree of merit after you address all of the above (and probably more). But realize that you really are talking about a very, very, very small percentage of the prison population.

[Ghostpanther]

Ireland has this fantastic revolving door justice system where violent criminals with 250+ convictions are walking about free, while people not paying their TV license can get jail time.

Doing us wonders!

We have the same type of justice system in the US, sadly.