Time for a new class role? (Or adding to the Holy Trinity)

[DeWumpus]

I was going through this thread discussing possible fourth specs for classes (https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...for-each-class), when I begun to think a lot of ideas for these specs seem to be limited by having to fit into the the Tank/Healer/DPS trinity.

We have already seen specs/play-styles being redesigned or changed due to having to fit into one of these three roles (Fistweaving, The original redesign of Disc priest vs what they are now). So I propose a new class role that players can have

Role: Support

The idea behind support is that they are true hybrids. They can perform two roles that their other specs can perform at the same time but with less efficacy.

Ex:
Priest: Discipline could become a support class rather than healing. Truly embrace the damage to heal play-style. Wont be op since dps/healing with be lesser than the pure dps/pure healing specs
Monk: Same as above
Rogue: A Bard spec. Can dps and buff/debuff. Since focus will be on the buff and debuffing, its okay if dps is lower than other specs
Warrior: A tactician spec. Same as above.

Obviously how role requirements are determined for parties and raids have to be reworked for this to be viable (Tank, Healer, Support and 2 dps?)
Also how guilds/addons calculate player contribution will also have to change otherwise no one will play these specs since they are not meant to top dps/heal charts.

What do you guys think.

[Kokolums]

The idea of support role is the exact opposite of new. It has been discussed ever since vanilla. The role actually existed in Diablo 2 in the form of the Necromancer "curse bitch". The playstyle was to spend all your time debuffing mobs for others to kill. People complained it was VERY boring so it was not included in WoW.

The version of support that you offer already existed since vanilla. Before the LFR tool, it was common to form 5 man groups with 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 dps, 1 offheal/dps. BC dungeons were very hard with 1/1/3 setup but easy if you replaced a dps with a heal. A BC priest that specced halfway up the shadow and heal trees was something you might see in 5man and is exactly what you describe. Its not new. People simply forgot the option existed when the LFR tool forced you into the 1/1/3 mode.

[Directionalk9]

I also think it’s time to add a new role... and that is the extent of my contribution.

[brt2pp]

there is no option "yes i do think it would be cool for blizzard to come up with 4th role, but your idea is boring and talked to death already" so i won't vote

[Sanguinerd]

Having a support role could be really cool but it won't work right now. It could work but only if Blizzard stops supporting a community obsessed with "being the best", min/maxing and those ridiculous dps/hps combat logs.

Having to sim your damn character when you get loot is ridiculous, but right now you're almost forced to because every x% matters. It's fucked up tbh.

Balance should be taken way less seriously, but no.. everything goes according to logs.. all that matters are numbers.

Which is why a support won't work.

[jellmoo]

The problem you run into is what the mix should be. The balance is very delicate. If you bring a support that's 50% as effective as a dedicated healer and 50% as effective as a DPS, that support might just feel utterly useless. If you bring one that's 85% of each, it may end up being that nobody brings the dedicated ones anymore.

What that number is that allows the support to be viable, but not overshadow the dedicated classes is going to be tough to pinpoint as class/spec/talent/gear synergies come into play. It will require a lot of constant fine tuning.

Not saying it's a bad idea or impossible, just that it's an incredibly tricky thing to balance, perhaps too difficult for designers to want to implement.

[RemasteredClassic]

Support classes are the least desired. Classic wow kind of has a few support specs but they are not the most popular or in demand.

[Kyphael]

At least he didn't say players should become bankers and inn keepers like I saw in a thread a week ago or so.

I wish there were support roles in WoW, but that's just called healer. That's the level of simplicity WoW game play has degenerated to, not that Classic had stellar game play with its rich assortment of tank classes. The shaman was the most support-like class WoW ever had, and at one point, Blizzard thought "they're no longer going to be buff bitches." So yeah... that's a quote, too, Blizzard thought the shaman used to be "buff bitches." Kind of shows what they think about the concept of the "support role." Anything more than tank, heal and damage and they think the mobile phone game players will get confused and rage quit.

[RemasteredClassic]

At least he didn't say players should become bankers and inn keepers like I saw in a thread a week ago or so.

I wish there were support roles in WoW, but that's just called healer. That's the level of simplicity WoW game play has degenerated to, not that Classic had stellar game play with its rich assortment of tank classes. The shaman was the most support-like class WoW ever had, and at one point, Blizzard thought "they're no longer going to be buff bitches." So yeah... that's a quote, too, Blizzard thought the shaman used to be "buff bitches." Kind of shows what they think about the concept of the "support role." Anything more than tank, heal and damage and they think the mobile phone game players will get confused and rage quit.

WoW’s simplification went from bearable simple to everyone being the same, degenerate kind of simple. Every time they try to solve a problem, they create a solution that creates ten new problems.

Their changes are so drastic, completely ignoring player attachment to previous play style etc. it’s as if they are developing the game for themselves only.

[Pigglix]

Why add a support role if you already have 3 in the forms of Tank, healer and Dps role?

Or people do really want go back to ret pally classic kinda of support, having to spam blessing that last for 5 minutes to each of the raid members while you auto attack like a champ?

[Kaibhan]

Support classes are the least desired. Classic wow kind of has a few support specs but they are not the most popular or in demand.

That's a balancing issue. The supply is there for such a thing. The demand would be with some tweaks.

[bloodmoth13]

Im all for this but no. Not support, not half of each. Support as you described would be incredibly difficult to appreciate from a community perspective and would always be seen as redundant or overpowered.

The holy trinity will always be a thing, and by far the most popular and populated role is damage. My proposal is to just give all dps sub-roles that dont interfere with their damage output. This way they will succeed in 2 roles instead of fail in 2.

The idea is to take some of the tank/ healer responsibilities and spread them among the dps classes. Some subroles would be very active (new abilities, ability interactions) or passive.

The 2 most obvious subroles would be bruiser and support (dps/tank and dps/healer) which work for current hybrid classes, my other subclass suggestions would be a controller, debuffer and mobilizer.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a balancing issue. The supply is there for such a thing. The demand would be with some tweaks.

The problem is though is that even if they are completely broken OP, they still feel like shit to play and feel worthless. Its not a balancing issue its a feeling issue. Supports arent fun, some players enjoy that management playstyle but honestly that gameplay is much better on healers who get to interact with enemy action.

[Swnem]

When i see threads like this i feel the urge to ask how old the OP is.

Why do people think we got to this point? I think many people don't even think about it or have memories of gold fishes.

Support role is another way of saying "carry me please". It's forcing someone to join cause the raid needs to have class X while your friend has to sit the raid out cause he didn't choose the blessed "carry me" class.
And you know what happens right? Carry-me class then starts demanding to have DPS equal to pure DPS classes.

We have been through this. Why do people love to repeat the same mistakes? Such a waste of time...

[bloodmoth13]

Having a support role could be really cool but it won't work right now. It could work but only if Blizzard stops supporting a community obsessed with "being the best", min/maxing and those ridiculous dps/hps combat logs.

Having to sim your damn character when you get loot is ridiculous, but right now you're almost forced to because every x% matters. It's fucked up tbh.

Balance should be taken way less seriously, but no.. everything goes according to logs.. all that matters are numbers.

Which is why a support won't work.

Thats a community issue, not a design issue. The game just wasnt hardcore in vanilla, it started moving that way because of community addons like recount and gearscore.

[Rendark]

Unless you make the game way harder then a support class can't work.

[bloodmoth13]

When i see threads like this i feel the urge to ask how old the OP is.

Why do people think we got to this point? I think many people don't even think about it or have memories of gold fishes.

Support role is another way of saying "carry me please". It's forcing someone to join cause the raid needs to have class X while your friend has to sit the raid out cause he didn't choose the blessed "carry me" class.
And you know what happens right? Carry-me class then starts demanding to have DPS equal to pure DPS classes.

We have been through this. Why do people love to repeat the same mistakes? Such a waste of time...

I agree with the sentiment, but i think what OP actually wants is more variety in gameplay. I always loved hybrids because i could switch and heal if the group needed it, only off healing has been nerfed to hell and back and groups are better designed now to have dps function solely as dps. Being able to perform both roles would feel great if it were supported in some capacity, as a way to overperform rather than EZ Mode.

[Lochton]

I was going through this thread discussing possible fourth specs for classes (https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...for-each-class), when I begun to think a lot of ideas for these specs seem to be limited by having to fit into the the Tank/Healer/DPS trinity.

We have already seen specs/play-styles being redesigned or changed due to having to fit into one of these three roles (Fistweaving, The original redesign of Disc priest vs what they are now). So I propose a new class role that players can have

Role: Support

The idea behind support is that they are true hybrids. They can perform two roles that their other specs can perform at the same time but with less efficacy.

Ex:
Priest: Discipline could become a support class rather than healing. Truly embrace the damage to heal play-style. Wont be op since dps/healing with be lesser than the pure dps/pure healing specs
Monk: Same as above
Rogue: A Bard spec. Can dps and buff/debuff. Since focus will be on the buff and debuffing, its okay if dps is lower than other specs
Warrior: A tactician spec. Same as above.

Obviously how role requirements are determined for parties and raids have to be reworked for this to be viable (Tank, Healer, Support and 2 dps?)
Also how guilds/addons calculate player contribution will also have to change otherwise no one will play these specs since they are not meant to top dps/heal charts.

What do you guys think.

For WoW, it needs much more work to be viable..

[schwarzkopf]

Before they add a new class role, the need to fully play out the existing ones.

Currently the two combinations not currently at play are:

* Melee (non mana) healer
* Ranged (mana) tank

Not sure if the second one can be done in WoW, but the first one would involve some awesome gameplay and high skill caps.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Control and Support roles only make sense if you have the gameplay to back them up. WoW is miles away from facilitating such gameplay.

It's also not needed. Most classes do have support and controll features already backed into them and they are considerations, Blizzard just deliberately limited them by giving us debuffs so that we don't stack them anymore (see: Bloodlust) or put hillariously bad limitations on CC (only 1 at a time, breaks by caughing in the room next door). WoW wants to be a hotkey action hack & slash type of game, crying for complex RPG interactions is simply no longer an option.

[Skitamine]

Support classes worked well in games like Ragnarok Online (Bard, dancer, sage etc.), i doubt it would work in a game where DPS/HPS is so looking over.