Why the Shadowlands make me depressed

[Talrath]

You have pretty good ideas. To me the obvious thing with Azshara would be having her whole "icecrown" like area (if she had her own expansion) underwater and very deep. Her whole palace should be underwater at least. Hell, why would naga fight on dry land unless extremely necessary? They excell at water.

Exactly, but meh common sense doesnt work for blizz. Could also be that the devs can't spend much time on the mechanics cuz of their big bro blizzard activision wants fast money to please the shareholders. I really hope that the devs one day will have some backbone and just say: nope, the game is ready when we deem its ready and stop bothering us, we know our shit.

[dippinsawse]

Yeah the shadowlands is a really boring concept to me. I'm not excited to go there at all. To think that we just got half-assed mid expansion visits to more interesting places like the three you mention rather than having full expansions but instead are going to pointless, lame ass shadowlands is seriously disappointing.

[Jokubas]

I used to be of the mind that if you wanted to change something, you should change it. Growing up, I ran into a lot of "no, you can't change this because of tradition" that was problematic. Looking at other MMOs, I am convinced that one of the big reasons that World of Warcraft can still announce an expansion on schedule 15 years out is because they never rest on their laurels. A lot of other games that copied WoW, copied WoW at whatever state it was when they started development, and then just stayed there, often meaning that they were already behind the times by the time they launched, let alone going forward. Lord of the Rings Online feels way older than WoW despite being newer, because they copied WoW circa-2007, and stayed WoW circa-2007. It's no wonder that most of them failed.

But Blizzard has also taught me that there's a limit. I stopped coming back regularly because there was this anxiety that the game I came back to wouldn't be the game I left. That my class would play completely differently, or I'd have to re-earn something I already worked really hard for because they changed the way things worked.

Almost nowhere does that apply more than the story. Blizzard seems to treat their story as if it's a perpetual beta, and it's the story's ultimate flaw. I'm not going to be the best one to articulate this, but I'm sure people more versed in literary analysis could tell you. Things like foreshadowing, chekhov's guns, and even plot twists don't work if your story is constantly in flux. You can't have payoff if the setup was retconned by the time you get to the resolution.

The saddest thing to me about all these new retcons is that the Chronicles were brilliant. It took an amazing amount of skill to take several different drafts of lore and generations of retcons, and weave them together into something that was not only coherent but made many of those elements make more sense. I don't know how you look at that and see anything other than "this is our definitive series bible from now on".

It's not like the Chronicles didn't leave room for expansion, and I think a good chunk of the Shadowlands does squeeze in there, I just don't know why they couldn't commit to all of it being able to.

The small things really matter, too. I'm coming back to these forums and I'm already seeing multiple giant threads about whether or not the Lich King should have won his fight with Sylvanas, or whether Arthas could instead, etc. That debate is happening because of the story being mishandled in both retconned cosmology and show not tell. I have "Sylvanas fatigue", but I don't have a problem with the outcomes of the last two cinematics, it's the portrayal that leaves much to be desired. First off, in Reckoning, the characters in universe recognized that Sylvanas used a magic we've never seen before to kill Saurfang. To the audience, it looks like any other magic she's ever used.

It reminds me of Legion. Prior to the Chronicle, the Void was ambiguously attached to the Twisting Nether and the demons. The Chronicle decided to explicitly divorce them as not just separate powers, but warring powers. Except, instead of keeping them separate going forward, the Legion inexplicably still uses Void magic and enlists Void creatures all over the place, which makes Sargeras look really stupid since his goal was to give them no possible foothold in the universe.

We have a similar problem here. Post-Chronicle, the different forms of magic should be distinct and recognizable. Fel is bright green, Void is dark purple, etc. etc. If they wanted to show that Sylvanas was doing something unprecedented, her spell shouldn't have just been purple. And it's fine if it wasn't a color established by the Chronicle. In fact, that's a way you could make it even more meaningful when we see it, by making us ask what was that? If her spell was the pale green of the Jailer's eyes, or the sandy color of the Maw, the audience would have realized something was wrong. Instead, when I first saw that cinematic, I didn't think anything of it. There's no particular reason why she shouldn't be able to kill him with one hit (he's mortal and the cinematics tend to play with more realistic rules).

To illustrate, there was a time we had an opposite sort of situation happen, in the 6.1 cutscene. Gul'dan's failure had previously seen him being practically disowned by the Legion. Then he confronts Grom and has Kilrogg drink demon blood and... what's this? He doesn't turn green or red. He's turning this purplish color, and he's growing all sorts of other strange mutations. Speculation exploded as to where Gul'dan got this different blood and what it was going to mean. What did it end up meaning? Blizzard retconned what fel orcs looked like. That's it. It's such a massive shame because that could have been something cool, or it could have at least not accidentally distracted from the actual point of the cutscene for something that didn't even mean anything.

The problem with the Shadowlands cinematic is that Sylvanas appears to be no-selling all of Bolvar's attacks simply because she's "that good." What they should have shown is that Sylvanas had to take a bunch of the hits and was getting pretty messed up, but she reveals in the end that she was killing time for her Jailer powers to kick in and restrain Bolvar. Alternatively, she's shrugging off the hits, but you keep seeing this flash of a strange color, implying that she's secretly being shielded by this new power. Instead, the cinematic gives the impression that she didn't need a power boost at all, and she's either stupidly powerful or Bolvar's a slow, clumsy oaf, neither of which are good for the story or what they meant to imply.

So anyway, I actually am cautiously optimistic about a lot of the Shadowlands lore, because it seems like we might be getting interesting origins for things that do have room to be given new origins, but I definitely agree that Blizzard really needs to restrain themselves from treating their story as a perpetual rough draft, and they need to flesh out the things they've built up to instead of the 'cool new idea' that they haven't earned yet. Even when you make mistakes, a story is always going to be better and feel more impactful when successive plot developments build on what happened before instead of being invented whole cloth.

[LemonDemonGirl]

You know, from watching the preview videos, Shadowlands seems kind of.....empty to me. It might be because it's still in a very early stage though

[FAILoZOFF]

It is very well known that Blizzard's writter team is average at best and any good lore/story ended with Mist of Padaria. Everything after that is just "meh" at best. Super good story writing ended with Warcraft 3, somewhat good story ended with MoP. Now they just change whatever they want to fit the scenario.

Nah, not even that. Warcraft lore was simply always awful and story made no sense, at all.

Question is, why do they waste money on relatively big writing team then.

That's actually a REALLY good question. They could let some bored security guard do the writing/lore job for just a small rise and end up with about the same "quality".
I mean, even bumbest fanfic sht I have seen was indistinguishable from what Blizzard is doing. So why even overpay?

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I think the real problem with expansions like Shadowlands (and also expansions like Legion to some extent) lies not with the stories themselves, but with the demystification of the world. Demons turn into aliens, Titans turn into bigger (more powerful) humans, Old Gods turn into generic raid encounters, age old villains like Azshara get swept under the rug, the afterlife gets reduced to a new "continent".

The world's still the same. It's just less in it.

Noticed the exact same thing, a good deal of mystery is actually quite good for "world immersion" or w/e you'd want to call it.

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You know, from watching the preview videos, Shadowlands seems kind of.....empty to me. It might be because it's still in a very early stage though

And they don't look like the "ethereal" "world" they are supposed to be, at all. Correct.

[Nerovar]

Noticed the exact same thing, a good deal of mystery is actually quite good for "world immersion" or w/e you'd want to call it.

I mean, they're hacking away at the world's history and mythology to build up hype for a while now. In the long term they'll notice that this is not something they can replace without making it seem forced and awkward for most players (big God like entities no one has ever heard from popping out of nowhere is kinda strange after all).
It's the same thing that bothered me about Warhammer End Times/Age of Sigmar and I think it's ultimately why that long-standing franchise will lose its attraction.

[ashblond]

The concept of shadowland itself is stupid and confusing.

If people is dead, then he is dead. not all this "sending to shadowland" crap. And how can characters die again in shadowlands?

We have a race called "undead". But they can die, and after they die, they are sent to shadowlands, and they can die in shadowland again. Why the hell call them undead when they can die everywhere?

It is just stupid.

[Byleth]

I think the Shadowlands sounds like a fun place to go. I look forward to exploring them.

[Beet]

Holy shit. OP I feel the same as you on most of this. I was stoked for Shadowlands, but I'm not liking seeing my favorite lore characters just made into nothing or stories constantly retconned. In a way it feels sad theyre crapping on the previous work of the last guys.

1. So true. I hate what they did to Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden. If anything Mannoroth should have been the last boss of WoD. I thought it would have been so cool to have Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden as a duo encounter for us to fight in Legion. Imagine them as the last boss for example instead of Argus. It could have been so great. When I saw the message at Blizzcon that said "Discover the story of Helm of Dom/Frostmourne" I was like, what? We already know the stories. Don't fucking wash over them. Nathrezim are badass and should continue to be badass.

2. I've been saying all of these things for so long now. Argus was my great disappointment. Of all the places in WoW lore I wanted to visit, it was Argus with Nyalotha a close second. Argus was so mysterious and cool sounding. The Eredar were my favorite bad guys of all, and I thought it would be something special. I was glad they gave us at least 3 zones if they had to do it, but it should have been its own expansion for sure. Nazjatar is just shit. I don't even like it like I do Argus.

Nyalotha too. Why is it we got three five mans for ICC dungeons, three five mans for End Times Cata dungeons, and then for Nyalotha we get none? The fuck? This is a place we've heard tales of since WotLK. N'Zoth has been a threat since then too. All these rumors and mysteries. And it leads to a boss that we kill right off the bat, in one raid only. And the tale ends with that as he has nothing to do with the next expansion. Wonderful.

3. Yeah, I think all these zones were far more important to the game and lore than fucking Pandaria. Pandaria had pandaren, we had none of them in WoW apart from Chen so it didn't have all sorts of folks just dying to see it.

4. I touched on this earlier and I agree. Even Bellular said the same. Metzen was a nerd, and some people didn't like him but I miss him. The WoW lore was his baby. He wasn't perfect, but you could tell how much he respected and loved it.

I was just crushed by the treatment to all my favorite lore things and characters. Shadowlands COULD be so good. I mean we should be able to get amazing interactions with all sorts of legendary figures now. But I don't think we will. They didnt give us those moments in WoD so we wont get them here either. Which leads me to ask, why the fuck is Draka the Maldraxxus covenant person? Draka?! Thralls Mom, who died to two orcs and that was it? SHE gets to be the main character for that covenant?! I'd even prefer to see Garrosh again or something. He would fit the militaristic sense.

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you forgot about the Chronicles.

most canon thing you can find.

no retconing anymore, fam.

They are already retconning it. They said now it's written from the titans perspective rofl. Even though a bunch of shit in there couldn't be because it has things in there they would have no way whatsoever of knowing.

[october breeze]

At this point, WoW has become the abstract example of "You will die as a hero, or live long enough to become a villain".

The degree of being villain is different for everyone. For many it was Cata, for others WoD and many rest, BFA.

For me, Legion was the heroic conclusion. BFA and SL are now the villain part of WoW, dragging and milking what is left.

[shadowmatrix]

All these threads seem like "Eww pandas" all over again, oh well.

[Sageofthe10paths]

I didn't like the xpac too, so I unsubbed and filled out a survey. I won't be giving them anymore money until they stop making the game mobile light garbage! Ion Hazzikostos has to go!!!

[Th3Scourge]

The lore is just meh now. I miss the simplicity of the stories in Vanilla. Stories on a smaller scale are almost always more impactful.

I miss just slaying dragons n shit n saving a village

[derpkitteh]

i think the arbiter is really the only bad part.

i like the idea that the nathrezim went into the shadowlands and either forced someone to make the armor and frostmourne or made it their selves with the equipment. it shows that not just our universe was threatened by the legion, but our afterlife too.

the arbiter though, she's annoying. i like the idea that the kyrians and renegade val'kyr spirithealers are the ones ferrying souls about. i feel like the arbiter's existence makes the plane of the shadowlands we find most things on, the one see in game, not make sense. also, whatever plane of it that uuna was in doesn't make sense.

i think the arbiter would be better if they came out and said that she doesn't just grab souls upon the instant of their death, but that it's a process that takes a little time. so souls can find their selves wandering deep into the shadowlands and being stuck in very dark parts of it.

[Dakara]

[B]
<snip>
But worst of all, it's hard to care about the lore when Blizzard keeps making shit up on the spot and coming up with new "biggest threat ever" every other year or so and waylaying established characters. Why get invested in the lore of the Shadowlands when it's a given that the Jailer will end up being a mook for some other cosmic threat? Speaking of waylayed characters...

This is probably my biggest gripe with the storytelling of late.... WOW has become the Dragonball Z MMO "It's over 9000!". There's always another "most powerful being in the all the universe" lurking just around the corner.

Ultimately, we're past the point of no return, but I miss being a humble adventurer who saved the local farmers from the like of Hogger. It also makes zero sense in-game, where the most powerful heroes in all of Azeroth (i.e. us), equipped with vastly powerful artifact weapons/amulets/legendaries... imbued with powerful essences and Azerite powers, can be taken down by generic un-named mobs in the open world because we're on an undergeared alt and pulled a few too many for our ilvl.

At this point, our Characters might aswell be Rey from Disney's Star Wars.

[JacobusRex]

The lore is just meh now. I miss the simplicity of the stories in Vanilla. Stories on a smaller scale are almost always more impactful.

I miss just slaying dragons n shit n saving a village

But that gets old too. The best stories that have long-lasting effect are the ones that tell individual tales alluding to a larger cause/goal/reason/threat. They went full stupid when WoD came out and now again with N'zoth. They build up and then fizzle out instead of explode. With TBC, you were built up to fight Illidan and then you did with a big explosive fight, then they set up the next expansion AS WELL AS wrap the story of Kael'thas in the Isle of Quel'danas, Magister's Terrrace and the Sunwell. (alluding to future stories)

They did the same thing with WotLK, building up to the fight with Arthas, then you did, and then they set up the next xpac. This time they alluded to future Old God and Titan stuff as well (to a small degree) with Ulduar. Cataclysm is where it started to unfurl a bit. While we got the build up to fight Deathwing, with more Old God and Titan allusion, they started to really tunnel vision into making our characters into "champions" towards the end, plus a really badly handled story arc with Garrosh and the Faction War.

MoP is really the red herring for the faction war as well as the mismanaging of the build up and the fizzle. We fought a character people were supposed to like, then to make it worse, the Faction War was really supposed to end there but Ion wants that crutch to lean on for PVP crowd draw. WoD was truly the downward spiral from there. No more significant build up, weird story where our characters are suddenly master and commander, but not really because we are still regular joes / janes.

Got worse in Legion and BFA is just more limping on in confused delirium while stories that people have been following for years are forgotten, cut short or just handled terribly / ruined by anime and GoT fans trashing the lore into oblivion.

[Th3Scourge]

But that gets old too. The best stories that have long-lasting effect are the ones that tell individual tales alluding to a larger cause/goal/reason/threat. They went full stupid when WoD came out and now again with N'zoth. They build up and then fizzle out instead of explode. With TBC, you were built up to fight Illidan and then you did with a big explosive fight, then they set up the next expansion AS WELL AS wrap the story of Kael'thas in the Isle of Quel'danas, Magister's Terrrace and the Sunwell. (alluding to future stories)

They did the same thing with WotLK, building up to the fight with Arthas, then you did, and then they set up the next xpac. This time they alluded to future Old God and Titan stuff as well (to a small degree) with Ulduar. Cataclysm is where it started to unfurl a bit. While we got the build up to fight Deathwing, with more Old God and Titan allusion, they started to really tunnel vision into making our characters into "champions" towards the end, plus a really badly handled story arc with Garrosh and the Faction War.

MoP is really the red herring for the faction war as well as the mismanaging of the build up and the fizzle. We fought a character people were supposed to like, then to make it worse, the Faction War was really supposed to end there but Ion wants that crutch to lean on for PVP crowd draw. WoD was truly the downward spiral from there. No more significant build up, weird story where our characters are suddenly master and commander, but not really because we are still regular joes / janes.

Got worse in Legion and BFA is just more limping on in confused delirium while stories that people have been following for years are forgotten, cut short or just handled terribly / ruined by anime and GoT fans trashing the lore into oblivion.

Honestly the best way they could've handled this is if by using the titanforges against Nzoth in 8.3 we effectively 're-originate' the planet and everyone is pulled back down about 50 steps. No more being the champion of Azeroth, we just became an adventurer again looking for loot and glory, then you can build your big bads. Right now, we've done everything, there's no room to go anywhere but up in power-levels.

[Oakshana]

Exactly, but meh common sense doesnt work for blizz. Could also be that the devs can't spend much time on the mechanics cuz of their big bro blizzard activision wants fast money to please the shareholders. I really hope that the devs one day will have some backbone and just say: nope, the game is ready when we deem its ready and stop bothering us, we know our shit.

Or... it COULD be, and just hear me out, people bitched so much about Vashj'ir and the water combat environment that they didn't want to take the risk it would be received negatively.

[PaladinBash]

I dunno dude, the place looks cool and seems fresh and fun. Yeah yeah it's shitty storytelling but storytelling's been shit for ages now. You acknowledge it as much. This new place has potential to be nice to play through and I'll take that at this point.