Titanforging returning in shadowlands (possibly)

[Xath]

I disagree, alts are a good way to replay content.

and you get to play alts without opportunity cost without ap and titanforging.

[Clozer]

Remove TF = killing m+.

And believe it or not there are actually people subbed and loving m+.

If they find another way to reward m+, while removing TF - that could be fine.

[crakerjack]

Yea titanforging does ruin the game IMO. I can understand how super casual players or those that don't like to do challenging content might appreciate it, but it's not rewarding. It's like playing video poker and hitting the big jackpot out of nowhere. It's just a matter of putting in the time and hoping you get some crazy proc. I'm sure I'd get a rush too if I did a +2 and got a max titanforge w/ socket item, but soon after I would feel like I did nothing to deserve it. It also devalues grinding harder content because if you get a nasty TF proc, getting a base ilvl +10 piece can't compare. Higher ilvl gear should be gated behind challenging content, it should act as an incentive to push yourself.

[Greengrim]

Titanforge and socket procs are one of the biggest issues of this game, alongside the class homogenization, pruning and artifact power. I mean, you get your BiS, but it's not really the BiS, as it can proc 3 additional times, so the chance of getting an actual BiS is so retardedly low. It's just underwhelming, it doesn't feel like you get a BiS at all.

Remove TF = killing m+.

And believe it or not there are actually people subbed and loving m+.

If they find another way to reward m+, while removing TF - that could be fine.

Simple as hell, adjust the item levels accordingly, not have people farm into infinity and still not get an actual BiS item.

[razorpax]

Remove TF = killing m+.

And believe it or not there are actually people subbed and loving m+.

If they find another way to reward m+, while removing TF - that could be fine.

they fixed this with the change to the weekly cache

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Remove TF = killing m+.

And believe it or not there are actually people subbed and loving m+.

If they find another way to reward m+, while removing TF - that could be fine.

How exactly would removing titanforging kill m+?
Gear rewarded is based on difficulty of content, if you’re doing m+3653 then you get rewarded accordingly. All titanforging does is giving you a chance to get better rewards than the content you did.

"Mythic + need titanforged drops to progress higher over time!"
No they don’t, you could easily return the upgraded ilvl system from before, where you would use some weekly token or resource to upgrade the item of an item you want. That way you would still get upgrades over time and you wouldn’t be fucked by RNG, that’s a system that would work for everyone.

[Bryci]

At this point this is innevitable to be honest. RNG hugely increases replayability so there will always be some sort of trick to keep people around for longer since the game is sub based. Their intention is not that you are geared in 2 weeks. The longer you are subbed the more money they make. My problem with RNG is when you get the same piece from a box 5 weeks in a row which can't be happening but we all know that it is rigged.

[Raelbo]

Yea titanforging does ruin the game IMO. I can understand how super casual players or those that don't like to do challenging content might appreciate it, but it's not rewarding. It's like playing video poker and hitting the big jackpot out of nowhere. It's just a matter of putting in the time and hoping you get some crazy proc.

That's really not how it works at all. You speak as if TF is somehow this great reward equaliser that gives everyone the same reward regardless of the difficulty of the content they're doing, and that is simply not true.

Yes, theoritically anything is possible, but statistical probability dictates that in reality, people doing harder content are going to have better gear.

I'm sure I'd get a rush too if I did a +2 and got a max titanforge w/ socket item, but soon after I would feel like I did nothing to deserve it.

Why does being deserving or not matter? A single lucky drop has very little impact on your character. If you're actually getting enough "lucky" drops like this to start to actually affect your performance to any noticeable effect, it's no longer luck, it's the result of persistent effort paying off.

It also devalues grinding harder content because if you get a nasty TF proc, getting a base ilvl +10 piece can't compare.

This makes zero sense. Your odds of getting a "nasty" TF proc are significantly higher when doing harder content. Why would you be grinding easier content in the first place?

Also, there are 15 gear slots. If you happen to get lucky on a lower key with one item, there are still those other 14 slots.

Higher ilvl gear should be gated behind challenging content, it should act as an incentive to push yourself.

It basically is and it does.

If you look at gear holistically, people doing the most challenging content have the best gear. Period. The fact that some statistically outlying scrub somewhere out there might have a 450 socketed TF wristpiece boosting him from ilevel 395 to 398 is really a complete non issue.

And this is why I have such a big problem taking the complaints of the anti-TF crowd seriously. There's no sense of perspective. But hey, who needs perspective when you have hyperbole!

[Khain]

TF is hated by many people but its a necessary evil, It's the only way for people that do exclusively pvp or M+ to get good gear in order to progress further.

[RoKPaNda]

The strongest gear does come from the hardest content. The myth that LFR/Normal players were running around with heaps of Mythic gear was debunked years ago at this point. M+ players have really nice gear, Mythic raiders have really nice gear, everyone else has trash gear outside of 1-2 pieces.

Hopefully they do the right thing and keep TF in-game. For me as a Mythic raider it was the only thing they ever did that ever added any incentive to do anything with my more casual friends or do anything beyond the bare minimum required to raid Mythic. This weird deterministic reward fetish that the community has just amounts to another chore that we have to do every week that punishes us if we miss a week of it.

Also punishing casuals, who love TF because it's a fun system for them, to appeal to us more hardcore players and our flawed perception of what the order of things should be, is an absolutely horrendous business decision. They did this with WOD and they lost half their subs in a single quarter. The casuals keep this game going, not us.

[Raelbo]

Simple as hell, adjust the item levels accordingly, not have people farm into infinity and still not get an actual BiS item.

The whole point of TF is to make achieving BiS impossible. The idea being that players will stop with the unhealthy fixation on getting BiS and focus instead on achieving actual goals based on the content they want to beat. Unfortunately some players are just stubborn and insist on playing against the grain. They will do everything in their power to ensure that their game experience is miserable, in spite of the best efforts of the game designers to dissuade them.

[razorpax]

At this point this is innevitable to be honest. RNG hugely increases replayability so there will always be some sort of trick to keep people around for longer since the game is sub based. Their intention is not that you are geared in 2 weeks. The longer you are subbed the more money they make. My problem with RNG is when you get the same piece from a box 5 weeks in a row which can't be happening but we all know that it is rigged.

give us something more interesting and engaging than an ilvl boost

think about it

TF raises the general ilvl of most players

heck right now my mage who barely does anything except heroic warfront is sitting at 422
that means ilvl wise norm raid is pointless
outgrown WQ
anything under a +5 shouldnt matter
ilvl shouldnt really matter and unless you are little jimmy in the group finder requesting 430+curve for norm queen while never killing it and being as geared as my mage then you probably dont give a shit about ilvl

and that is ok from a player standpoint but when it comes to blizz its "we have to make them feel rewarded by the raid so we need higher ilvl"

honestly it wasnt bad back in WoD
you had warforge
but you had a smaller gap between tiers and difficulty....until people complained

blizzard when brf was being tested "we want players to be able to jump from heroic highmaul to heroic BRF"
blizzard 2 weeks after release "we are buffing the ilvl of BRF gear because players dont feel rewarded"

the corruption system allows them to give us little affixes that while not super powerful (after the last batch of tuning) are still more interesting tahn a stupid ilvl buff

plus thanks to blizzards other systems the ilvl buff can be detrimental in a group environment

you get a trinket that is useless to you but little jimmy needs it because its bis...well too bad jimmy because its 5 ilvls higher than what i have and thus i cant trade because blizzard thinks people hold a gun up to our head in raid groups and act like anything heroic or mythic guilds do is theft and ninja looting despite watcher being a heroic raider

with corruption i will have about 4 slots right off the bat from this current raid that i will be able to trade because of the ilvl being higher than the 430 threshold
i wont have useless gear
i wont have gear being wasted


im ok with rng on loot as long as its actually impactful like a damn rpg

and anyone saying removing TF will kill m+ has about as much knowledge of teh way we have had teh game represented to us as the idiotic dev considering bring TF back

was it the removal of TF or the removal of teh infinite grind that got a huge roar at blizzcon that interrupted Ion during his presentation?

[Greengrim]

The whole point of TF is to make achieving BiS impossible. The idea being that players will stop with the unhealthy fixation on getting BiS and focus instead on achieving actual goals based on the content they want to beat. Unfortunately some players are just stubborn and insist on playing against the grain. They will do everything in their power to ensure that their game experience is miserable, in spite of the best efforts of the game designers to dissuade them.

The game should be made for the players, and provide what they want. Not have some silly AP and TF mechanics just to keep them infinitely online, grinding and feel underwhelmed when they get a non-TF BiS. People invest time and efforts in their characters, for which they want to receive fulfillment. Not watch themselves being ourgeared by others who totally lucked out. This is an extremely toxic and insolent system which is bothering possibly more than 90% of the playerbase since it's designed to keep infinitely keep you online, grinding and grinding and grinding...

At this point this is innevitable to be honest. RNG hugely increases replayability so there will always be some sort of trick to keep people around for longer since the game is sub based. Their intention is not that you are geared in 2 weeks. The longer you are subbed the more money they make. My problem with RNG is when you get the same piece from a box 5 weeks in a row which can't be happening but we all know that it is rigged.

I understand Blizzard wants to keep people subbed. But as I mentioned above, throwing an insane amount of RNG and grind at them is just NOT the proper way. Rather, encourage the making of alts once you've maxed out a char. Promote PvP once PvE players max out, and vice versa. There's at least 10 better ways I can think of just from the top of my mind, and I'm not even a freaking game designer...

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The whole point of TF is to make achieving BiS impossible. The idea being that players will stop with the unhealthy fixation on getting BiS and focus instead on achieving actual goals based on the content they want to beat. Unfortunately some players are just stubborn and insist on playing against the grain. They will do everything in their power to ensure that their game experience is miserable, in spite of the best efforts of the game designers to dissuade them.

A lot of people just want to complete a list of checkpoints, to reach their goal(s). To some that’s defeating all mythic raid bosses, to some it’s collecting all pets to lvl 25, to some it’s having all mounts, and for some there is having the best gear.
Imagine if there would never be a "finish line" for anyone. Pets would just regenerate into something else, raids would get harder every week instead of easier and so on.
This in particular is why people dislike AP grinds with a passion, because we want to be "complete" and done with it we do it until we’re burnt out and nolonger have any fun with ut.

[razorpax]

The whole point of TF is to make achieving BiS impossible. The idea being that players will stop with the unhealthy fixation on getting BiS and focus instead on achieving actual goals based on the content they want to beat. Unfortunately some players are just stubborn and insist on playing against the grain. They will do everything in their power to ensure that their game experience is miserable, in spite of the best efforts of the game designers to dissuade them.

hahahahahahaha

best efforts??

dude this is an RPG BiS is fine heck Ion said as much recently

TF is just a way to try and convince players to constantly rerun pointless content and then say "well we know taht there is a .01% of you getting taht huge upgrade and we could just get rid of taht but hey its your fault for playing the system that we have in store"

what is so wrong about having an end goal when it comes to gearing your character?
what does TF give the players that no other system can?
what makes the slot machine exciting?
is the .01% chance of excitement worth the 99.99% shance of disappointment for the players?


if the devs wanted to help the players when they implimented TF then they wouldnt punish us by not allowing us to trade the gear or use masterlooting

- - - Updated - - -

A lot of people just want to complete a list of checkpoints, to reach their goal(s). To some that’s defeating all mythic raid bosses, to some it’s collecting all pets to lvl 25, to some it’s having all mounts, and for some there is having the best gear.
Imagine if there would never be a "finish line" for anyone. Pets would just regenerate into something else, raids would get harder every week instead of easier and so on.
This in particular is why people dislike AP grinds with a passion, because we want to be "complete" and done with it we do it until we’re burnt out and nolonger have any fun with ut.

according to taht roar at blizzcon i think the players enjoy end goals lol

do people truly think taht we stop playing once we get our BiS set??

theres more specs
theres aoe vs st
theres alts

you will still play more the only difference is you might enjoy the play time more than if it was just endless


heck just add manapearl system for boosting the ilvl of the gear if you want to keep TF at least that way we have some control which BFA has been deisgned to take away at every turn

[mojusk]

their best argument defending titanforging is that it keeps players raiding, after they cleared the raid. which has proven not to be true. what people care about is some cool reward, like a mount.
how many were rekilling mythic g'huun or aszhara after all worthy guildies got the achievement? NONE! on the other hand people are still killing jaina, to give to guildies or sell to buyers.

i wouldnt mind TF as much if it had a 15+ ilvl cap, and that mythic gear ilvl was the cap (could still get sockets and tertiary stats).
and it would be nice to have some sorta upgrade valor tokens, that added wf/tf/sockets/tertiary stats.

[crakerjack]

That's really not how it works at all. You speak as if TF is somehow this great reward equaliser that gives everyone the same reward regardless of the difficulty of the content they're doing, and that is simply not true.

Yes, theoritically anything is possible, but statistical probability dictates that in reality, people doing harder content are going to have better gear.



Why does being deserving or not matter? A single lucky drop has very little impact on your character. If you're actually getting enough "lucky" drops like this to start to actually affect your performance to any noticeable effect, it's no longer luck, it's the result of persistent effort paying off.



This makes zero sense. Your odds of getting a "nasty" TF proc are significantly higher when doing harder content. Why would you be grinding easier content in the first place?

Also, there are 15 gear slots. If you happen to get lucky on a lower key with one item, there are still those other 14 slots.



It basically is and it does.

If you look at gear holistically, people doing the most challenging content have the best gear. Period. The fact that some statistically outlying scrub somewhere out there might have a 450 socketed TF wristpiece boosting him from ilevel 395 to 398 is really a complete non issue.

And this is why I have such a big problem taking the complaints of the anti-TF crowd seriously. There's no sense of perspective. But hey, who needs perspective when you have hyperbole!

If I do heroic raids, I shouldn't be able to get gear equal to a mythic raider. If I do +2's, I shouldn't be able to get gear equal to or better than what drops in a +10. With TF/WF, that's exactly what can happen. It's not a matter of one piece not making a big difference, it has everything to do with satisfaction. Hell, someone can do a WQ and get a max TF proc. Obviously if you do +10s or mythic raiding, the base ilvl is higher, so therefore you're likely to get better rewards, but that still doesn't offset the chance of someone getting equal, if not better gear from doing simple content. It divides the playerbase because people can play the game solo and be rewarded with BiS pieces potentially.

[Gorsameth]

their best argument defending titanforging is that it keeps players raiding, after they cleared the raid. which has proven not to be true. what people care about is some cool reward, like a mount.
how many were rekilling mythic g'huun or aszhara after all worthy guildies got the achievement? NONE! on the other hand people are still killing jaina, to give to guildies or sell to buyers.

i wouldnt mind TF as much if it had a 15+ ilvl cap, and that mythic gear ilvl was the cap (could still get sockets and tertiary stats).
and it would be nice to have some sorta upgrade valor tokens, that added wf/tf/sockets/tertiary stats.

Because a difficult boss fight once per week doesn't compare to grinding infinite amounts of M+ if your looking for a high ilvl piece.

Outside of specific effects on items, raid bosses are not an efficient way to fish for TF procs.

[razorpax]

The game should be made for the players, and provide what they want. Not have some silly AP and TF mechanics just to keep them infinitely online, grinding and feel underwhelmed when they get a non-TF BiS. People invest time and efforts in their characters, for which they want to receive fulfillment. Not watch themselves being ourgeared by others who totally lucked out. This is an extremely toxic and insolent system which is bothering possibly more than 90% of the playerbase since it's designed to keep infinitely keep you online, grinding and grinding and grinding...



I understand Blizzard wants to keep people subbed. But as I mentioned above, throwing an insane amount of RNG and grind at them is just NOT the proper way. Rather, encourage the making of alts once you've maxed out a char. Promote PvP once PvE players max out, and vice versa. There's at least 10 better ways I can think of from the top of my mind, and I'm not even a freaking game designer...

i like your point and the sad part is the only comeback you will ever see is "why does it matter what others have"

the single point that they can mention and it is utterly meaningless because it misses the mark

TF raises the average players ilvl higher than what they can normally achieve
if timmy get a 455 trinket right now then he wont replace that thing for the rest of the expansion unless he raids norm+
raising teh average ilvl means you essentially tell them tehy outgear the content and tehn situations like this happen

Timmy is sitting at 425ilvl right now
lfr give 0 meaningful reward
WQ gives 0 meaningful reward outside of TF
same with M0
heroic WF is maybe twice a month
time for m+

but Timmy only gets rewards from +5 and higher
Timmy doesnt have a key because m0 gives nothing
Timmy gets invited to the +5 he signed up for
this group consists of Jimmy and some other pugs who for the most part understand teh dungeon and teh affix
Timmy doesnt understand bolstering or skittish
Timmy likes to AoE
Timmy causes wipes in AD
since Timmy never did m0 he doesnt know that the boss with the totems needs to have all totems dead at one time
Timmy doesnt understand visage
Timmy doesnt understand transfusion
Timmy doesnt understand soul rend
Timmy makes the rest of the group angry and gets kicked
Timmy gets upset because the game said that he was doing suitable content

[Wyrt]

I don't really mind it for normal armor pieces. There's only so many stat combos around that you'll probably have multiple places to get the perfect stat combo gear.

I absolutely hate that it applies to trinkets. Having to run the same mythic dungeon over and over again sucks. And then having to do it again in the next patch sucks even more.