Both factions - The Alliance (Humans, Elves, Gnomes and Dwarves) and the Horde (Orcs, Trolls, Ogres and Goblins) - were created in WC2.
EDIT:I don't see how going 'faction differences is too hard' and giving up is 'thinking outside the box.'It'll never happen because Blizzard quite literally can't think outside the box.
Also, I find it hilarious that just because they aren't at each others throats right now, both factions are expected to dissolve/merge and become a global power. Because that totally happened when America, China and Russia united to fight the Nazi's. They forgot about generations of hatred and mistrust and truly became one, global faction.
...right?
Last edited by Mic_128; 2019-11-09 at 03:12 PM.
All of which do not require factions. These are why nations create alliances and treaties. Before the Alliance was a thing, Stormwind and Ironforge already enjoyed such a relationship, for example.
Take Suramar, for example. What incentive did they actually have for joining the Horde? Suddenly they are in a war. After thousands of years of Independence they are a vassal state in a war against a group of people that literally just helped free them. The Nightborne joining either faction is utterly nonsensical. They had no need to. It is completely against their best interests to get involved in a war that is meaningless to them.because the faction that they joined is at wat with the opposite one, the moment you join you became a target, friend of my enemy is my enemy.
Very much the plot. Because it was nonsense for the Night Elves to join the Alliance to begin with. The same way it was nonsense for the Forsaken to join the Horde. It's just to pigeonhole an enemy faction race on another continent. The conflicts they have are incredibly forced. There is zero reason for races that live on separate continents to be engaged in battles over a whole lot of nothing. The plot is essentially convoluted and designed to create artificial conflict over nothing.there was legitimate reasons,there still conflict going on with dwarves and orcs in alterac, dwares and orc sin twilight highlands,orcs nd night elves, worgens and forsaken, humans and forsaken, dwarves and taurens, trolls and humans and so oon, they hd torehah a history simple because the writers are incompetent and bad.
They could make the alliance attck first to retake lorderon but no, they HAD to make Sylvanus as the pivotal and plot device characters for shadowlands
again, not the plot
In WoW we absolutely have not had this. At all. Every conflict is centered around red vs blue. Hell, the introduction of Worgen into the Alliance is the ultimate expression of that. The only reason they join is because Garrosh orders the Forsaken to attack them. A group of isolationists who had not been involved in anything for years. Garrosh opened a battlefront in the worst possible place, for no good reason just because the plot demanded it.but we aleady had that, just becaue the races and kingdoms are also red and blue don't dismiss those
how the heck you are going to do this without a faction system? that would be a fucking mess
And you do this by taking a step back and having nations have conflicts, just like in the real world. It creates and evolving and living story that can change as you move along, instead of having to reset to the status quo time and again just to maintain the faction facade.
Dude... No. Obviously not "just like that". You craft a story to make it happen. You write in a conflict and then let it play out. I was merely giving an example. Right now, because of factions, it can't happen. Like in game we have conflict between Tyrande and Anduin, except it cannot play out because of the faction mechanic. Eliminate that mechanic, and you have a world of storytelling available.so, the gnomsand draenei will have somehow a conflict, just like that, and you think that is fine
Again... No... Dude... No... Not for no reason. You craft a story that provides reasons for everything. You create conflict and then have it play out. Stop being deliberately dense. Right now, we have the same conflicts happening again and again. Ad infinitum. The same races, having the same battle. Because factions demand that the same groups keep fighting. If we strip that layer back, and we go with Nations instead, we have a different mechanic for conflict. We have groups where treaties and alliances actually mean something.yes, trolls nd blood elves at conflict, but why, and why other races will join their fight, for what reason, a human will help trolls ainst elves, and orcs will help blood elves againsttrolls
fo no fucking reason, this is your idea of complex storie? cause this is nonsense, this would only work if warcraft2-3 and vanila to now neverexisted, wow 2 reboot version, right now is nonsense.
Ask yourself: What makes more sense. For a nation to want to decide it's own fate, be involved in the battles that matter to it and its people, to be in charge of their own armies? Or for a nation to simply give control of their armies and do whatever a barely grown man says, just cuz? Or for them to give control of their armies to a clearly evil undead creature because a troll spirit told their dying troll leader to do so?
You literally spent the expansion following the orders of an elf. After being involved in the murder of a bunch of elves. With a huge elf related warfront.how is the problem now? in bfa i followed trolls, orcs, tauren, elves and even goblins, i don't want to move from that thank you
just because the writers shit in the story now we don't have to be so drastically to remove the factions entirely, that is not a solution
But no, please keep the game stagnant and repeating the same story over and over again because you have some weird alliance phobia.
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And those are not the factions that exist in the game today. For one, that was Lordaeron and not Stormwind. For another, the trolls in Warcraft 2 are forest trolls and not Darkspear. And of course the elves are no in the other faction. To say nothing of the fact that we are missing the Tauren, Forsaken and Night Elves.
1. Help with dealing with Mana addiction. Both from the psychological side of it but also the physiological. The Arcanador can only grow so much fruit at once.
2. Help recovering from overthrowing/murdering their leadership and rebuilding their city and method of government
3. They wanted to be a part of Azeroth proper, not just hiding away again. With the Alliance and Horde having holdings over every continent - and with one side somewhat hostile at worst, unfriendly at best, it made sense to ally with the Horde.
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Okay, fine. Let's say they were created in WC3. It still predates WoW.
None of the above actually requires that they join a faction though, and get dragged into an ongoing war that has nothing to do with them. They could have just as easily decided to create treaties and trade agreements with both Alliance and Horde. Or sought and alliance of sorts with Dalaran. There wan't any reason whatsoever for them to come out of hiding, pledge their allegiance to an undead elf queen, and then get bogged down in a war that doesn't give them anything.
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Except it's still not the same Alliance. It's still Lordaeron and not Stormwind. We still have the high Elves with the humans. This time though there aren't any Gnomes. And we still don't have any Forsaken. And the Night Elves are most definitely not a member of the Alliance.
One of the biggest things that Tyrande threw at the Nigthborne was the fact they were content to hide away. They wanted to show they weren't cowards and do more than just sit in their little corner of the world, wanting to be a proper player in the ongoing events of Azeroth.
Oh, you mean the war that started after they had signed up? Immediately after Legion, there were no open hostilities between the Horde and the Alliance. We saw the information that they were given, and they weren't told that Sylvanas was plotting to soon go on the offensive and raze an enemy capital.and get dragged into an ongoing war that has nothing to do with them.
How is being at risk of having both factions actively hostile towards you by failing the delicate negotiations that would keep both sides happy, the 'easy' option, instead of just allying with the faction that's welcoming and offering aid?They could have just as easily decided to create treaties and trade agreements with both Alliance and Horde.
Dalaran is famous for it's neutrality, but it's also still a single, small city. They don't have holdings all around Azeroth. They aren't a big player in world events.Or sought and alliance of sorts with Dalaran.
Other than no longer wanting to hide away - as doing so nearly doomed their race to mana addiction, and then the Legion - and wanting to join their Blood Elven brethren who were offering kinship and assistance in recovering from a devastating war, an upheaval in leadership and a city needing repairs.There wan't any reason whatsoever for them to come out of hiding, pledge their allegiance to an undead elf queen, and then get bogged down in a war that doesn't give them anything.
Why is Dalaran able to remain neutral, but Suramar can't possibly do so?Dalaran is famous for it's neutrality, but it's also still a single, small city. They don't have holdings all around Azeroth. They aren't a big player in world events.
Considering that Dalaran is full of mages from all factions of the world. Their mana addiction is probably best cured/taken care of by the Kirin Tor which are themselves vivid arcane magic users.
Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-11-09 at 03:58 PM.
Thinking that the second is possible when they stated that the first will not be possible is really self-delusional.
You are basically saying: Ok, so they don't want to do this simple thing that won't have any effect in terms of lore... but hey! they can still do this complex game changing thing that will change factions as we know them!
Deep down the whole cross-faction thing is quite simple: let friends play together.
Is not about removing, adding, merging or morphing factions or the races that belong to them.
Is not about peace, war or whatever. Lore has nothing to do with it.
It's just about improving the social interaction between players.
That the first choice you make when you create a character limits the story and lore you'll experience, determines the foes you'll fight in war mode... but does not limit the people you'll be able to play with.
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That would basically mean that Suramar can't be a big player on it's own, which I find to be rather unlikely considering their potency, knowledge in magic, and probably even more important - the location of their city.
I find it silly to assume an ancient civilization such as theirs isn't able to juggle politics and has to be reduced to a fledgling-city state.
Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-11-09 at 04:12 PM.
How is it easier, really - or at least, how does that decision make sense from any point but gameplay reasons.
By formerly entering alliances they are bound to allegiance to a leader they have had no interest in.
They could join and talk/trade with their blood-elven brethren by not joining the horde and befriend them too. I really don't see it for any lore reason whatsoever.
It might have been easier to actually do that and do the same with Dalaran and a faction from the Alliance and thus secure peace as factions inside the Alliance or Horde would be hard pressed to not join any hostile activities against Suramar as they are friends and partners to them.
Sylvanas: "the Horde is interested in gaining influence over Suramar, we'll seize their territory"
Bloodelves: "no we will not? we will not join this effort and attack our friends and former brethren"
Sylvanas would get a popup asking: "Risk civil war inside the Horde - Yes/No?"
Same thing with the Alliance....whoever had the biggest say in the negotiations there (I played Horde)
I doubt that they are many who seek to do any harm to them or consider it worth the effort to do so.
Especially since hostile actions WOULD actually drive them to the opposite faction. Them staying neutral and gaining some of their benefits would be better than being denied all of it by showing hostile intent.... as Tyrande has proven, something like that would deny their faction anything Suramar had to offer.
Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-11-09 at 04:35 PM.
but in times of war, factions are an easily solution,it gives commitment
again, bad writers,they joined for help and protection, alone they would perish by other factionsTake Suramar, for example. What incentive did they actually have for joining the Horde?
that would be the reason, but again, bad writers
nelves are egocentric racist they were attacking orcs in ashenvale, orcs strike back, they could do nothing alone, get help from the alliance to deal with, there is no nonsense with thatVery much the plot. Because it was nonsense for the Night Elves to join the Alliance to begin with.
same logic, it was shit,but the logic is thereThe same way it was nonsense for the Forsaken to join the Horde.
it is centered around factions and the races, majory of the races are there because they had beef against other race, thats one of the reasons they joined the factions to get revengeIn WoW we absolutely have not had this. At all. Every conflict is centered around red vs blue.
Worgens by example joined the alliance for protection, support and revenge
as all things are, you are basically wanting "individual stories" because the plot would demand toobecause the plot demanded it.
you can do that with factions as before, why horde and alliance cannot be like nations then? you are asking something simple impossible by the quantity of races, it would be a unsatisfactory messAnd you do this by taking a step back and having nations have conflicts, just like in the real world. It creates and evolving and living story that can change as you move along, instead of having to reset to the status quo time and again just to maintain the faction facade.it can play out, it don't just need to be from the same faction
Dude... No. Obviously not "just like that". You craft a story to make it happen. You write in a conflict and then let it play out. I was merely giving an example. Right now, because of factions, it can't happen.
you say im being dense on purpose, yet you are on purpose ignoring all the minor racial conflicts and say "its just red vs blue bro, thats just ironicAgain... No... Dude... No... Not for no reason. You craft a story that provides reasons for everything. You create conflict and then have it play out. Stop being deliberately dense. Right now, we have the same conflicts happening again and again. Ad infinitum. The same races, having the same battle. Because factions demand that the same groups keep fighting. If we strip that layer back, and we go with Nations instead, we have a different mechanic for conflict. We have groups where treaties and alliances actually mean something.
you want the factions system to end just because the story right now is crap, when something has a problem you fix it, you don't cut it off entirely just because you don't like itAsk yourself: What makes more sense. For a nation to want to decide it's own fate, be involved in the battles that matter to it and its people, to be in charge of their own armies? Or for a nation to simply give control of their armies and do whatever a barely grown man says, just cuz? Or for them to give control of their armies to a clearly evil undead creature because a troll spirit told their dying troll leader to do so?
A faction is a nation on his own, they should focus more on racial conflict yes, but it don't need to remove the factions for that to happen
Again, fix the the problem of the story, removing the factions will not solve the damn polem, the problem would remain, and even worse cause it would be a fucking messBut no, please keep the game stagnant and repeating the same story over and over again because you have some weird alliance phobia.
Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-11-09 at 07:45 PM.
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Just expecting it to happen anytime soon is like expecting commercial moon travel in a year
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Where did this weird surge of people talking about Horde and Alliance players playing together even came from? At one point nothing, and then BOOM, threads about it popping all over the place. Is this one of those things the leaked expansions promised?
Expecting Blizzard to make away with one of WoW's core identities is just something that's not going to happen. Even if it would make sense, lorewise. Personally, I don't really care too much, but it's not hard to see people actually care about the factions and their integrity. If you don't see that, you are an Alliance scrub!
Them listening to people like you is why we got LFD and LFR. Factions have always been a thing and I personally don't see a need to change it. You and your homies can talk it out and I'm sure one or more of you would be willing to reroll to play together. I've had to make that decision and its the only reason I know a bit about the alliance side of lore. However, I am a hordie and will always be. They all quit, I moved back, I'll never change faction for friends again. I think wow in general would be less interesting if there were no factions.