Diablo 4 to feature microtransactions

[Endus]

If you are selling a game at full price, I expect to get EVERYTHING with the game if I choose to buy it, not bits cut out and sold back to me.

This is an unwarranted sense of entitlement, not an actual argument.

You're confusing "full price" in the sense of "the price has not been discounted in a sale in some way", with "full price" in the sense of an all-inclusive price tag.

They are not the same thing.

If you choose to go on vacation, and pay "full price" for your hotel stay, that does not mean food and drinks are included, unless it explicitly stated the price was "all-inclusive" and specified exactly that.

The "full price" of a game like D4 is also the "base price" for the game. It's the minimum investment. It comes with only the basics, no extras. The idea that $60 magically entitles you to all content is . . . completely fucking ridiculous. It's a tantrum, not an argument.

[quras]

SNIP....

So my question to the many of you that are clearly disappointed with this form of monetization... Would you expect them to constantly support the game without this and what makes you expect this?

Does No Mans Sky hit the target close enough for you? A game That was $60 upfront and has massive continued support for no additional cash. A small company of a few people who can put out large content updates for free and isn't a billion dollar corporation.

Is that a close enough example for you?

SNIP....
My point is those concerns are already out there, other companies have already made those mistakes and Blizzard isn't stupid. Raising additional concerns won't hurt, I agree, but a lot of what I'm seeing in this thread are not "concerns" it's downright hatred for MTX, disappointment that the game has them to the point where people say they won't buy it or play it, and other negativity simply based on the fact that it will have MTX without knowing how exactly it will get implemented.

I understand the dislike for MTX. It a business practice that tends to get in the way developing games for the gamer. The MTX, like we have seen in so many games, takes precedence and thats bothersome to many and blizzard doesn't get a pass on that being a real possibility. For me, just the fact they made it an open world and now has mount travel screams that change only happened so they can add in sell-able mounts. A fundamental change to the diablo world and it's transport system to mount sells. More of a chance blizzard screws it up to me than gets it right but as I said early, time will tell but I do get the mindset if not getting a game because of MTX.

[Rendark]

Funny. Loot 2.0 hit the game in Feb 2014, RoS was released in March 2014. Giving more evidence that the RMAH fueled the support.

Ya and they had to fix the loot because they had to remove the AH. The game was made so much worse with it.

[kail]

just a quick response during work, but consider the following:

- lets say they sell an extra pair of cosmetic wings for your charakter, price doesnt matter
- its available in the store at launch
- that means its content that the deliberatly decided not to put into the game, but to sell it to you (after you payed full price)
- the item is in the game, it was on the physical copy you bought in the store, but its not available

regarding your 2nd opinion, i doubt games get cheaper when they have mtx available.
if your game is f2p, i dont care. thats how you monetize, but if you demand full price for it and then add mtx, it irks me.

Day one dlc has always been criticized, could be cosmetics or actual content. It is something that can be placed in the game for the initial launch.

What about post launch? Devs could still give their artists work to do. Should the skins after launch be free?

[cjmilla413]

I really do not get people that stick up for this and say "as long as it is only cosmetic" A massive part of playing a rpg game is the cosmetic features tied to the armor and weapons you loot in the game. Having visual progression to the gear you receive in the game is a huge part of the allure of loot based games and rpg games in general. A huge reason I do not play Path of Exile is because I realize that I will never loot something that looks epic from the actual game, I need to swipe a credit card for that and that is not rewarding. It eliminates a core mechanic of the game the visual aspect of loot which lets be honest everyone cares about it and if they did not than MTX sales would not be so successful in games like GW2 and POE.

Also as soon as they implement a cash shop with cosmetics they create a conflict of interest by making gear drops not look even remotely as good as those sold in the store which kills the gaming experience overall. I don't know about all of you but I get zero satisfaction from swiping my CC for a epic looking gear set but getting it as a legendary or super rare drop feels fantastic.The only company I have seen handle this fair is FF14 where everything in game can be earned cosmetic wise and looks great and there only a handful of things like bathing suits and novelty roll play like items available for sale. There is so much great Cosmetics to be earned from the game in FF14 that you literally don't even care that there are store items. This is not the case for POE and GW2 and I do not believe blizzard will take the high road either in regards to epic looking loot that is earned from playing.

What we will see most likely is that all the loot you get from playing looks bland and boring while the shop has 3d effects and looks absolutely insane. The big issue with this is the game is not free to play and we will be paying for every expansion pack so to act like its ok for them to sell us the visual part of the game separately is absolute bull and it totally kills one of the best parts of a loot type game and that is how badass you look in the gear. Nobody cares how badass anyone looks when that looks is achieved through typing in your CC number and it never feels as good buying a cosmetic than it does when it is attached to that illusive piece of loot you got as a drop.

If Diablo 4 exists to sell micro transactions there is no way and hell I will play or support it. If they decide it will be absolute free to play with updates like POE that is a different matter.

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Games have always designed the artistic aesthetic of loot and things in the game as part of the actual game that you pay for. It's sad people are getting mind f**ed so hard by these company's they suddenly think its ok for them to sell the art of the game separately (skins). It is simply taking a part of the game design out of the game and selling it separately for more money nothing more. This practice is fine for games like league of legends, fort nite and other free to plays that let us enjoy there game for zero cost but Diablo 4 will be full retail price and charge 40 bucks if not more for each content expansion they release. Bottom line is nothing is ok about this and at the end of the day its going to mean Diablo 4 as a game as a whole is going to be worse off than without out selling MTX.

[DSRilk]

BtP only refers to current content, that excludes future content. Which means that future content needs to be payed for. Since it's BtP, no buy, no play. That's not what people demand however. They buy the game, then they often demand new content which should be free... that's entitlement. There is a reason why used the phrase "players" and not "you", I don't necessarily mean you for everything since I don't know what your position is and never assumed such. I just took your sequel comment as a stepping stone to give my view of it.

So yeah, the ones being entitled are the ones demanding new content and expect it to be free. Me enjoying getting free content because other pays for it isn't really entitlement since I don't demand it to be like that. I just benefit from it.
Overwatch has given me tons of maps and almost double the rooster of hero for free because of mtx... I never expected or demanded to get anything paid for or for free, i just did.

Granted I wasn't clear fully on my stance of mtx, for me they should just be cosmetic only... as long as it's buying power aka bethesda style then it's a bad model.
That's the thing, every single business model can be bad. Just because you pay for content doesn't mean it can't be overpriced so even a BtP can be a bad model if it's too expensive for what you get. So my view of mtx is in contrast of this thread, which is a cosmetic only implementation and that's the one I can't understand.
Your comment on that things can change over time is true both for mtx cosmetic only and BtP models.

Blizzard have a history for only doing cosmetic mtx... I see no reason why that would change regardless of doomsayers saying any in game shop will have buy power implemented "next time".

BtP does not only refer to current content. Expansions are generally also BtP. If you want new content every month, pay for it. That's an option and it's what I'm saying. When ESO drops a new set of dungeons or quest areas every couple months, I choose to either pay for it or not. That's BtP. As a concept and practice, it has nothing to do with original vs future content.

I don't know who you think is "demanding" free content. I don't see that happening. I agree that if people believe additional content should be free, they are (in most cases) "entitled" as you say. Again though, I see that in straw man arguments - not in real life (outside of the occasional literal 12 year old). When my son (about that age) made some comment decrying games not being entirely free, I just asked him why people should work 40-50 hours a week for 2-3 years so that he could play for free? How are they to be compensated for their time and effort? That question alone was enough to stop that nonsense. I just don't see this actual wave of "entitled" people - at least when it comes to gaming.

Regardless of what's out there, however, you were directly responding to me, who absolutely never said that and made clear that my point is in opposition to it. If I want new content, I should pay for it - directly. If you didn't mean me personally, that's fine - but then you should find someone who is actually claiming what you say. You'd also know my position if you fully read my responses.

Personally, power vs cosmetic MTX doesn't matter to me because I don't play competitively. If someone wants to buy a boost to level 120, what do I care? If someone wants to buy something I can earn (reasonably) in-game, again, what do I care? For me, the main problem with MTX is that in order for people to buy something, it must hold value, and that value intrinsically comes from the game itself most of the time. It either saves people time getting something, which I don't care about, or it makes something available only outside the game, which I do care about - hence why "only cosmetics" are an issue for me.

I'd prefer to see a D4 where cosmetics rewards are available in-game as part of content. If Blizz wants to add more content that has new cosmetic rewards, then let me buy access to that new content. Making things that trump existing rewards (and if they didn't, why would anyone buy them), doesn't sit well with me. I want to play to obtain them. That's all.

I suspect that you prefer playing multi-player (and not just with a couple friends). If that's the case, then FtP with MtX generates more players, which would be good for someone who wants that. For those of us who have money to spend on games and only play solo or with a friend or two on occasion, MTX holds no benefit and has unnecessary baggage.

You said earlier you didn't understand why some people are against MTX. I hope being able to look at the way other people play the game, perhaps from the examples I gave above, can help you understand why some people (such as myself) hold a negative view of it. In the end though, MtX plays only a very small part in my decision to buy a game. My main concerns about D4 are the changes they appear to be making to the talents and such. The philosophy seems to be going backward, which is not my preference. My judgment shall be withheld until a lot more details come out, however.

[cjmilla413]

I really hope you are right about this because one of the reasons I can't get into POE like you said are none of the items that look good can be looted in the actual game and only come from the store. Just like you said I also get this because it is a free to play game with content updates so I understand the practice. I told myself I would rather wait for diablo 4 than be detached from the visual aspects of the game like in POE and it really scares me that there is a potential for blizzard to double dip and create a situation like POE because for me that would kill the game 100%.

Offering a skin here and there to add to many fantastic in game skins is different though I can get behind that because you can still achieve epic looking stuff in the game and buying a skin here and there is just extra but I don't trust them not to pull a grinding gear games and make all the in-game loot look like a massive dump

[Dundebuns]

Just a few cosmetics, nothing really to worry about

Slippery slope. Look at Fallout 76.

[cjmilla413]

Yeah but they don't want just 1.8 billion they think in there small little minds that every game they put out has to have the earning potential of fortnite. They also can't seem to grasp the idea that when you charge full retail for your games you can't go looking at games like POE and say to yourself "why cant we sell cosmetics and make the same income with diablo 4"

They want to do both so bad and if they try it I will be there to not support it.

[Buliwyf the Omen]

Slippery slope. Look at Fallout 76.

Do you even play the Game youre trying to trashtalk? Because it seems like you dont.

I play Fallout 76 ( and quite a lot of it) and there is absolutely nothing pay to win or overly broken in it. The only annoying thing are the Repair Kits, the rest is purely cosmetic stuff, new Sub aside.

[Katchii]

I understand the dislike for MTX. It a business practice that tends to get in the way developing games for the gamer. The MTX, like we have seen in so many games, takes precedence and thats bothersome to many and blizzard doesn't get a pass on that being a real possibility. For me, just the fact they made it an open world and now has mount travel screams that change only happened so they can add in sell-able mounts. A fundamental change to the diablo world and it's transport system to mount sells. More of a chance blizzard screws it up to me than gets it right but as I said early, time will tell but I do get the mindset if not getting a game because of MTX.

I never said they get a pass, I'm saying they're not stupid. They've had MTX in their games for years, and D3 even had the RMAH that was shit on and then removed eventually. I'm not going to pretend that they're infallible, they're not and they make mistakes, but to insinuate that they're incompetent in regards to business decisions like this and will introduce a system that is already universally shit on across every game that it's ever been in just seems silly to me.

If the game has mounts that you can earn and the MTX are for shinier version or whatever....I fail to see why or how that affects the game in any meaningful way or that would "screw it up." Whether having mounts screams MTX or not, I really don't understand how that's "bad." Or are you implying that the game will have mounts but you can only buy them through MTX? Yeah, that would be ridiculous but the likelihood of that even happening are exceedingly remote, since they said the MTX would be cosmetic only and a mounts functionality is NOT just cosmetic, it's looks are.

[Utrrabbit]

No one forces people to buy cosmetic items through mtx. If you think its bad or a problen. You are wrong.

[cjmilla413]

Don't bother with him his mindset is a dream for these company's and investors alike. It's literally gotten to the point were as long as something is not pay to win people say its ok. Its like oh you banged my mother as long as you did not kill her its fine. It's not fine cosmetics are a huge part of gaming they have always been. They are not something you rip out and sell separately with full retail titles. I pay for the game and all the content in that game including the armor they designed for the loot drops. If they come out with extra content, maps,loot new bosses ect I will pay for that to.

I do not play free to plays personally because I do not like a marred game play experience so I can subsidize bums that do not want to pay anything. But to tell me that sticking to pay to play games is going to net me the same outcome as a free to play like charging cool looking cosmetics separate is unacceptable!

[Butterland]

I really do not get people that stick up for this and say "as long as it is only cosmetic" A massive part of playing a rpg game is the cosmetic features tied to the armor and weapons you loot in the game. Having visual progression to the gear you receive in the game is a huge part of the allure of loot based games and rpg games in general. A huge reason I do not play Path of Exile is because I realize that I will never loot something that looks epic from the actual game, I need to swipe a credit card for that and that is not rewarding. It eliminates a core mechanic of the game the visual aspect of loot which lets be honest everyone cares about it and if they did not than MTX sales would not be so successful in games like GW2 and POE.

I agree with you. But the reality is that we lost that battle years ago. At this point players are just drawing a line in the sand and hope Blizzard won't cross it.

People can blame Blizzard as much as they want, the reality is that there's enough players out there that purchase cosmetic items to make it a viable strategy. The players you lose because of the ethics of MTX do not come close to compensating for the money brought in by MTX. WoW has lost more than half its playerbase but made money from the whales they kept.

Don't hate Blizzard... hate Garry because he buys store pets/mounts. Everyone hates Garry, including himself.

[Utrrabbit]

It is fine and those who think its not. Are wrong and are thr problem why gaming is hie it is.

[cjmilla413]

Sounds like you don't get it because for you visual effects are not a big part of your enjoyment of the game but they are for mine and many others. When I play games like diablo yes I play it for the great game play but part of that is the cool loot I pick up along the way and how it looks. Nothings more satisfying than completing a in game challenge to get loot that looks fantastic it goes together like peanut butter and jelly powerful loot and how it looks on your character is HUGE in rpg games. Whats doesn't feel great is having to take your credit card out to match the physical power of your gear with the cosmetic part and it should never be sold separately unless free to play.

[Kolvarg]

Do you even play the Game youre trying to trashtalk? Because it seems like you dont.

I play Fallout 76 ( and quite a lot of it) and there is absolutely nothing pay to win or overly broken in it. The only annoying thing are the Repair Kits, the rest is purely cosmetic stuff, new Sub aside.

Is that a true opinion or just sunk cost fallacy speaking?

I mean, I can understand liking/playing Fallout 76 despite all the bullshit surrounding it, but I can't imagine how anyone would defend it or in any way want games in the future to be more like it.

[Beet]

Related: will also feature actual support. Funny how that works.

Funny how D2 sold for $20 for the majority of its lifespan and got support with patches that dropped maybe once a year at best. Yet it’s considered one of the best games of all time. Shit patch 1.09 was the most popular time of D2 forever and patch 1.10 didn’t come until literally two years later. Diablo 3 also got support fairly regularly for a game with barely any players. Let’s not pretend we have to have microtransactions for support.

[Beefhammer]

Ya and they had to fix the loot because they had to remove the AH. The game was made so much worse with it.

That was a by product of the shitty itemization they used in D2 and D3. Forced a need to trade for items to get what you wanted more easily. Not a product of the RMAH. However, by removing the avenue players had to trade with each other, the loot system had to be redesigned. Again, none of this most likely would have been done without the extra revenues from the RMAH.

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Funny how D2 sold for $20 for the majority of its lifespan and got support with patches that dropped maybe once a year at best. Yet it’s considered one of the best games of all time. Shit patch 1.09 was the most popular time of D2 forever and patch 1.10 didn’t come until literally two years later. Diablo 3 also got support fairly regularly for a game with barely any players. Let’s not pretend we have to have microtransactions for support.

Bug fixes and very minor changes. It got nothing extra no other PC games have gotten during the age of the internet. Also, if it weren't for WoW you might not have seen those updates.

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I agree with you. But the reality is that we lost that battle years ago. At this point players are just drawing a line in the sand and hope Blizzard won't cross it.

People can blame Blizzard as much as they want, the reality is that there's enough players out there that purchase cosmetic items to make it a viable strategy. The players you lose because of the ethics of MTX do not come close to compensating for the money brought in by MTX. WoW has lost more than half its playerbase but made money from the whales they kept.

Don't hate Blizzard... hate Garry because he buys store pets/mounts. Everyone hates Garry, including himself.

Why would I hate Gary? Gary has money to spend on what he likes. He likes little in game things. If I liked little in game things and had a spare few bucks I'd buy it to support games I like.

[Shigma]

I miss times where games were fully fledged and complete, free of mtx, and maybe with one full expansion.