Maximizing Player Agency: Covenants

[NineSpine]

Well it didn't, because of all the yolo hipsters that made 20/20/20 specs and were mocked upon. So Blizzard simplified the talent system so people have less opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.

It’s a dumb argument. A handful of try hards think the game should be entirely organized around their neuroticism. Disconnecting gameplay from aesthetics, story, and theme is a hallmark of terrible game design.

[clevin]

You can't throw RPG elements and actual combat abilities into the same system and then tell people to choose one over the other.

Sure you can. What's most important to you? RP and story? Go with the choice that makes sense there. Min/MAxing performance? Guess what, make that choice.


You cannot say "But I have to do X because it's better" and then talk about agency.

[Nomads]

Ok, I'm out. I pity OP for having to deal with this nonsense.

I find it funny how literally 7 pages of responses from multiple people, giving you compelling arguments isn't enough to convince you that you're wrong. Age of willful ignorance...

[clevin]

Then if you're raiding, you made a wrong choice. Players don't want to make the wrong choice, the wrong choice is not fun. Players play games for fun.

I can guarantee you, without any shred of a doubt, that there is no way the covenant system stays the way it is now with the information we have been provided. Aesthetics, transmogs, collectables etc is all fine to tie to a covenant because your choice will not impact your gameplay. Tying actual spells and abilities that classes will be balanced around is a terrible idea that will pigeonhole players into covenants they would otherwise not want to align with.

You and other making this argument want all choices to be equally impactful. Yo want it all but that's not the best way to design systems because it means you choices don't really matter. The only way player agency make sense is if the choices have an impact and make the player think about what's important to them. If you can throw a dart at a list of choices and it doesn't matter where it hits, what's the point?

[arkanon]

Covenants should be about the story, aesthetics, cosmetics, and overall theme. Not Power.

Torghast lets you pick power in meaningful and impactful ways because that is where it's appropriate.

I couldnt agree more on the first point in particular. I LOVE the idea of having a 'faction' we can pick to really promote our personal style and flair, without having to min/max it. Yes, yes, i know we dont HAVE to min/max, and i for one would need to see a pretty large power gap before i would pick based purely on the 'power' of the faction. But i personally would prefer if it was completely removed.

I just think its a system lacking any real in depth thought, and would have loved to see SOMETHING continue beyond one expac - why cant we continue to represent that covenant in the next expac, with continued rewards being offered?

[FlubberPuddy]

You and other making this argument want all choices to be equally impactful. Yo want it all but that's not the best way to design systems because it means you choices don't really matter. The only way player agency make sense is if the choices have an impact and make the player think about what's important to them. If you can throw a dart at a list of choices and it doesn't matter where it hits, what's the point?

This exactly. I think the people who want to choose a covenant for aesthetics, but wish they had x spell from another just wanna have their cake and eat it too. If we begin to not make the choices matter gameplay wise then it becomes less compelling of a choice to make.

"I chose A so I get cool ability Y, if you want cool ability Y then choose covenant A too" is how it should be.

If you're a player driven by the meta then you've already made your player agency choice to be driven by the meta. The vast majority of players will not need to nor be required to play by the most min/max meta to complete 99% of rewarding content in the game.

Otherwise the only classes we'd be seeing at max levels doing high lvl (aka 15) m+ would be what's reflected by MDI classes. Like a +15 M+ gives you all the rewards, if you're someone that cares more about completing the +20 and a certain setup is required then onus is on you.

I feel like so many people blow out of proportion "being forced" to make certain in-game choices.

And this comes from a player that normal and heroic raid pugged as a dps during legion and got the m+15 achievement.

[Th3Scourge]

You and other making this argument want all choices to be equally impactful. Yo want it all but that's not the best way to design systems because it means you choices don't really matter. The only way player agency make sense is if the choices have an impact and make the player think about what's important to them. If you can throw a dart at a list of choices and it doesn't matter where it hits, what's the point?

No, I'm not asking for equality at all.
Let's keep in mind what Blizzard wants to put at the forefront of this expansion: Player expression. We saw this with all the new customisations etc. Ok now hold that thought...

There will always be a choice that's better for raiding, better for M+, better for Arena etc. The problem we are then faced with is players who want to have that agency, want to have that expression through their chosen covenant will be faced with the situation where they will have to align with a covenant that represents none of what Blizzard set out to achieve in terms of agency and expression.

The way to overcome this, whilst still maintaining an impactful choice, because I agree with you there, that choices should have meaning, is by having the abilities not be locked to the covenants themselves, but by The Arbiter.

Here's how it works: You will still side with a covenant for the soulbinds (which will most likely be less impactful) and unlock the transmogs, mounts, skins all that cool stuff and that will be tied to your covenant choice, but the class-spec abilities will be respeccable by The Arbiter, with a cost. Maybe that cost is a rune or relic from Tourghast that would otherwise be put towards your legendary or unlocking a trait in the soulbinds, thus remaining a careful decision to switch between (much like how you incur a cost for resetting azerite traits that doubles with every respec).

I honestly think that's the best approach. This way your covenant choice is impactful because it represents the way you express your character, and The Arbiter will bestow you with the powers from the Shadowlands (kinda fulfilling his/her role). Currently your talents, essence and azerite traits can be changed, having a potentially spec-defining ability tied to something that is very difficult to change is bad design in an MMO.

EDIT: Alternatively, add more abilities to each Covenant and let you pick one that can be respecced like you would Soulbinds. That way the variance between each covenant should be mitigated and means that if a mage wants to go Venthyr and predominantly raids, they won't be stuck with a pvp ability and can potentially choose between multiple that may seem more suitable to the content they are doing

[Finnagan]

As an avid RPer I already know which covenants some of my characters will join. The fact that the covenant I choose may not do the absolute best in raids doesn't matter to me. Not everyone is obsessed with being the most powerful.

Still for those that get enjoyment from chasing world firsts and the like I hope Blizz balances things well.

[huth]

Then if you're raiding, you made a wrong choice. Players don't want to make the wrong choice, the wrong choice is not fun. Players play games for fun.

Being unable to make the wrong choice isn't fun. It means you automatically "win" regardless of what you do, and have no actual agency. Basically, you're just watching a movie.

[NineSpine]

No, I'm not asking for equality at all.
Let's keep in mind what Blizzard wants to put at the forefront of this expansion: Player expression. We saw this with all the new customisations etc. Ok now hold that thought...

There will always be a choice that's better for raiding, better for M+, better for Arena etc. The problem we are then faced with is players who want to have that agency, want to have that expression through their chosen covenant will be faced with the situation where they will have to align with a covenant that represents none of what Blizzard set out to achieve in terms of agency and expression.

The way to overcome this, whilst still maintaining an impactful choice, because I agree with you there, that choices should have meaning, is by having the abilities not be locked to the covenants themselves, but by The Arbiter.

Here's how it works: You will still side with a covenant for the soulbinds (which will most likely be less impactful) and unlock the transmogs, mounts, skins all that cool stuff and that will be tied to your covenant choice, but the class-spec abilities will be respeccable by The Arbiter, with a cost. Maybe that cost is a rune or relic from Tourghast that would otherwise be put towards your legendary or unlocking a trait in the soulbinds, thus remaining a careful decision to switch between (much like how you incur a cost for resetting azerite traits that doubles with every respec).

I honestly think that's the best approach. This way your covenant choice is impactful because it represents the way you express your character, and The Arbiter will bestow you with the powers from the Shadowlands (kinda fulfilling his/her role). Currently your talents, essence and azerite traits can be changed, having a potentially spec-defining ability tied to something that is very difficult to change is bad design in an MMO.

EDIT: Alternatively, add more abilities to each Covenant and let you pick one that can be respecced like you would Soulbinds. That way the variance between each covenant should be mitigated and means that if a mage wants to go Venthyr and predominantly raids, they won't be stuck with a pvp ability and can potentially choose between multiple that may seem more suitable to the content they are doing

That’s a very dumb idea that doesn’t do what this system sets out to do. If you choose the necrotic faction, you get a thematically necrotic ability to go with it. Having people join that faction and then getting all the bonuses from the angelic faction is very stupid.

Your argument is no different than saying that as a human I should be able to have the undead facials, or as a mage I should be able to choose priest spells.

[Big Thanks]

No, I'm not asking for equality at all.
Let's keep in mind what Blizzard wants to put at the forefront of this expansion: Player expression. We saw this with all the new customisations etc. Ok now hold that thought...

There will always be a choice that's better for raiding, better for M+, better for Arena etc. The problem we are then faced with is players who want to have that agency, want to have that expression through their chosen covenant will be faced with the situation where they will have to align with a covenant that represents none of what Blizzard set out to achieve in terms of agency and expression.

The way to overcome this, whilst still maintaining an impactful choice, because I agree with you there, that choices should have meaning, is by having the abilities not be locked to the covenants themselves, but by The Arbiter.

Here's how it works: You will still side with a covenant for the soulbinds (which will most likely be less impactful) and unlock the transmogs, mounts, skins all that cool stuff and that will be tied to your covenant choice, but the class-spec abilities will be respeccable by The Arbiter, with a cost. Maybe that cost is a rune or relic from Tourghast that would otherwise be put towards your legendary or unlocking a trait in the soulbinds, thus remaining a careful decision to switch between (much like how you incur a cost for resetting azerite traits that doubles with every respec).

I honestly think that's the best approach. This way your covenant choice is impactful because it represents the way you express your character, and The Arbiter will bestow you with the powers from the Shadowlands (kinda fulfilling his/her role). Currently your talents, essence and azerite traits can be changed, having a potentially spec-defining ability tied to something that is very difficult to change is bad design in an MMO.

EDIT: Alternatively, add more abilities to each Covenant and let you pick one that can be respecced like you would Soulbinds. That way the variance between each covenant should be mitigated and means that if a mage wants to go Venthyr and predominantly raids, they won't be stuck with a pvp ability and can potentially choose between multiple that may seem more suitable to the content they are doing

Someone needs to put an end to this stupid nonsense that "min maxing is a problem and this needs to be fixed"

Min Maxing is NOT a problem
Min Maxing is a choice.
And like all choices in life, you have ups and downs, pros and cons.

What you are asking is "Please mister Blizzard, let me min max without any downsides, pllllllllllllz"
STHU, i say.
What makes a min maxer such an important person, that we have to change the entire game just to please this one type of player.

Min maxers want to remove RPG elements from an RPG and replace it with Math problem mechanics.

Does every D&D player pick the same race, weapon, abilities because they are all min maxers? NO!

YOU made the conscient choice of being a MIN MAXER.
Now, because you are NOT more than any other type of player, you need to live with the downsides of that conscient choice. (not getting the transmogs etc)

[Th3Scourge]

Someone needs to put an end to this stupid nonsense that "min maxing is a problem and this needs to be fixed"

Min Maxing is NOT a problem
Min Maxing is a choice.
And like all choices in life, you have ups and downs, pros and cons.

What you are asking is "Please mister Blizzard, let me min max without any downsides, pllllllllllllz"
STHU, i say.
What makes a min maxer such an important person, that we have to change the entire game just to please this one type of player.

Min maxers want to remove RPG elements from an RPG and replace it with Math problem mechanics.

Does every D&D player pick the same race, weapon, abilities because they are all min maxers? NO!

YOU made the conscient choice of being a MIN MAXER.
Now, because you are NOT more than any other type of player, you need to live with the downsides of that conscient choice. (not getting the transmogs etc)

It's not about min-maxxing. It's about >THE< main feature of an expansion making you choose between whether you want to be competent in one form of content over another, which is counter-intuitive to the way the game is currently designed. Classes will be designed and balanced around the spells and abilities provided by covenants, they won't just be throwaway abilities.

So if you want to play a mage in mythic raids then you wouldn't be able to pick Venthyr because you will be gimping your damage output. You can call it min-maxxing all you want but the reality of the situation is that players will always gravitate towards what is the best choice. Even worse still, what if you play a hybrid class and enjoy healing in raids but dps'ing during M+ and the covenant ability for one role isn't competitive for the other

If I'm playing my dk and want to go with necrolords but the active ability it provides me is completely garbage for all forms of content except for pvp compared to the night fae, which might be far and away the clear option for pve, then the reality is there is no choice and I'm stuck playing with some gay faries rather than being the edgelord I want to be

I will bet my 14 year-old WoW account that there is no way this system goes live in it's current form. The problems are glaringly obvious. It would be akin to selecting a talent that is very difficult to spec out of. It's just not going to happen

[Big Thanks]

It's not about min-maxxing. It's about >THE< main feature of an expansion making you choose between whether you want to be competent in one form of content over another, which is counter-intuitive to the way the game is currently designed. Classes will be designed and balanced around the spells and abilities provided by covenants, they won't just be throwaway abilities.

So if you want to play a mage in mythic raids then you wouldn't be able to pick Venthyr because you will be gimping your damage output. You can call it min-maxxing all you want but the reality of the situation is that players will always gravitate towards what is the best choice. Even worse still, what if you play a hybrid class and enjoy healing in raids but dps'ing during M+ and the covenant ability for one role isn't competitive for the other

If I'm playing my dk and want to go with necrolords but the active ability it provides me is completely garbage for all forms of content except for pvp compared to the night fae, which might be far and away the clear option for pve, then the reality is there is no choice and I'm stuck playing with some gay faries rather than being the edgelord I want to be

I will bet my 14 year-old WoW account that there is no way this system goes live in it's current form. The problems are glaringly obvious. It would be akin to selecting a talent that is very difficult to spec out of. It's just not going to happen

Where are you getting all this information from your Deathknight example?
Covenant abilities are all garbage compared to the soulbind talent trees (from our understanding)

Covenant abilities have 1-2min cooldowns (with a few exceptions)

Talent trees give completely stupid stuff like permanent 5% crit.

[Th3Scourge]

Where are you getting all this information from your Deathknight example?
Covenant abilities are all garbage compared to the soulbind talent trees (from our understanding)

Covenant abilities have 1-2min cooldowns (with a few exceptions)

Talent trees give completely stupid stuff like permanent 5% crit.

Read:

compared to the night fae, which might be far and away the clear option for pve

It's an example. We don't know anything other than what the Mage abilities currently are.

I've got a feeling that soulbinds will more or less be homogeneous between all the covenants, and respeccable too.



Edit: Turns out we do have some info now https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...of_revendreth/

Damn, the Night Fae ability actually is the best, whilst the Venthyr could pair nicely with breath builds (assuming they stay as they are of course). Necrolord is pretty cool for Blood and the Kyrian ability sucks

[NineSpine]

It's not about min-maxxing. It's about >THE< main feature of an expansion making you choose between whether you want to be competent in one form of content over another, which is counter-intuitive to the way the game is currently designed. Classes will be designed and balanced around the spells and abilities provided by covenants, they won't just be throwaway abilities.

So if you want to play a mage in mythic raids then you wouldn't be able to pick Venthyr because you will be gimping your damage output. You can call it min-maxxing all you want but the reality of the situation is that players will always gravitate towards what is the best choice. Even worse still, what if you play a hybrid class and enjoy healing in raids but dps'ing during M+ and the covenant ability for one role isn't competitive for the other

If I'm playing my dk and want to go with necrolords but the active ability it provides me is completely garbage for all forms of content except for pvp compared to the night fae, which might be far and away the clear option for pve, then the reality is there is no choice and I'm stuck playing with some gay faries rather than being the edgelord I want to be

I will bet my 14 year-old WoW account that there is no way this system goes live in it's current form. The problems are glaringly obvious. It would be akin to selecting a talent that is very difficult to spec out of. It's just not going to happen

Your argument is exactly like saying that I should be able to be a paladin but have all the mechanics of the warlock.

[Th3Scourge]

Your argument is exactly like saying that I should be able to be a paladin but have all the mechanics of the warlock.

That literally makes no sense.

You play a class to experience the game a certain way. You play a warlock to be a warlock, you play a paladin to be a paladin, you play a death knight to be a death knight. Now you want to choose the Necrolords covenant because they look good and fit thematically with the death knight class, buuuuut the ability is terrible compared to the Night Fae for tanking because you get a 10% damage reduction, well then it looks like you're going with the Night Fae.

Sure, you could go with whatever you want and gimp yourself, knock yourself out.

I can already see the LFG groups now: LF BDK TANK NIGHT FAE ONLY

[Big Thanks]

That literally makes no sense.

You play a class to experience the game a certain way. You play a warlock to be a warlock, you play a paladin to be a paladin, you play a death knight to be a death knight. Now you want to choose the Necrolords covenant because they look good and fit thematically with the death knight class, buuuuut the ability is terrible compared to the Night Fae for tanking because you get a 10% damage reduction, well then it looks like you're going with the Night Fae.

Sure, you could go with whatever you want and gimp yourself, knock yourself out.

I can already see the LFG groups now: LF BDK TANK NIGHT FAE ONLY

But there is no particularly terrible covenant choices. They are all terrible for the most part. (from my understanding)

I say they are terrible because im 90% sure soulinks is what matters the most.
If im not mistaken the expansion's "farm" mechanic is linked to soulink "farm".
There is no more Artifact Power.
There is soulink and legendary crafting farm.

So one would assume ^^THAT^^ is where the important things are.

[Tharivor]

Threads like this show exactly what would be terrible for the health of the game. Most people don't play to min/max but rather to have fun. Replacing a variety of new, interesting, and thematic abilities with a single generic boring "do x more dps" ability with perhaps a slight colour change is the opposite of creating fun. It would be better if Blizz removed covenant abilities in raids altogether than deliberately make boring "content" just to keep some min/max-ers from having a freakout.

[huth]

But there is no particularly terrible covenant choices. They are all terrible for the most part. (from my understanding)

I say they are terrible because im 90% sure soulinks is what matters the most.
If im not mistaken the expansion's "farm" mechanic is linked to soulink "farm".
There is no more Artifact Power.
There is soulink and legendary crafting farm.

So one would assume ^^THAT^^ is where the important things are.

Based on the explanations given, Soullinks aren't really farming, more timegating. You only need a pittance of Anima to get the maximum possible progress per week, everything else goes into cosmetics and stuff.

[Big Thanks]

Based on the explanations given, Soullinks aren't really farming, more timegating. You only need a pittance of Anima to get the maximum possible progress per week, everything else goes into cosmetics and stuff.

Stupid time gating...i hope you are wrong (T_T)

So we have at least 3 soulinks (from Blizzcon images) and to level up the 3 is a time gated experience to each one? Plz dont tell me...