South Korea signs defence agreement with China after Trump wants money from them.

[pathora44]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-seoul-demand/

The defence ministers of South Korea and China have agreed to develop their security ties to ensure stability in north-east Asia, the latest indication that Washington’s long-standing alliances in the region are fraying.

On the sidelines of regional security talks in Bangkok on Sunday, Jeong Kyeong-doo, the South Korean minister of defence, and his Chinese counterpart, Wei Fenghe, agreed to set up more military hotlines and to push ahead with a visit by Mr Jeong to China next year to “foster bilateral exchanges and cooperation in defence”, South Korea’s defence ministry said.

Seoul’s announcement coincided with growing resentment at the $5 billion (£3.9bn) annual fee that Washington is demanding to keep 28,500 US troops in South Korea.

That figure is a sharp increase from the $923 million that Seoul paid this year, which was an 8 per cent increase on the previous year.



An editorial in Monday’s edition of The Korea Times warned that the security alliance between the two countries “may fall apart due to Washington’s blatantly excessive demands”.

Mr Trump has previously threatened to withdraw US troops if his demands are not met, with the editorial accusing the president of regarding the Korea-US mutual defence treaty “as a property deal to make money”.

The vast majority of Koreans agree, with a recent survey by the Korea Institute for National Reunification showing that 96 per cent of people are opposed to Seoul paying more for the US military presence.

There is also irritation at the pressure that Washington is applying to the South to make Seoul sign an extension to a three-way agreement on sharing military information with the US and Japan.

The General Security of Military Information Agreement is due to expire at midnight on November 23 and South Korea insists that it will only agree to an extension if Japan cancels restrictions on exports of chemicals critical to the South’s microchip industry.

Japan is widely believed to have imposed the restrictions as the latest incident in its troubled relationship with South Korea, which includes the issue of compensation for labourers put to work during Japan’s colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula.



The two nations' defence ministers held discussions with Mark Esper, the US defence secretary, at the weekend but hopes that a breakthrough might materialise came to nothing.

Just days before an agreement designed to protect the allies from North Korean belligerence runs out, Tokyo and Seoul merely reiterated their long-held positions.

The US demanded in July that Japan pay $8 billion a year to keep 54,000 US military personnel in the country, Foreign Policy reported late last week.

Tokyo currently contributes $2 billion a year to US military costs in Japan.

“This kind of demand, not only the exorbitant number, but the way it is being done, could trigger anti-Americanism”, Bruce Klinger, an analyst at the Heritage Foundation think tank, told Foreign Policy.

“If you weaken alliances, and potentially decrease deterrence and US troop presence, that benefits North Korea, China and Russia, who see the potential for reduced US influence and support for our allies”.

Daniel Pinkston, a professor of international relations at the Seoul campus of Troy University, was more blunt in his assessment.

“It’s just extortion”, he told The Telegraph. “It’s little more than a mob boss going around and demanding protection money. The numbers that the US is demanding are politically impossible for Seoul and Tokyo to swallow and that is just fuelling resentment."

So we are in the process of losing one of longest allies and our only foothold on mainland Asia to China all the while we lost one of our staunchest allies and one of our only allies in the Middle East to Russia. So much winning for Trump while he literally destroys all of our political power in the world by alienating and attacking all of our allies. If we lose South Korea we lose any influence over the Asian mainland and most likely all of Asia because I highly doubt Japan will continue to back us with how things are going. So while America keeps "winning" China and Russia are continuing to grow in power. Who knew the Republican party was for helping the Communist maybe that is why their parties color is red.

[Xeones]

Well hopefully we can avoid WW3 despite Trumps best efforts to start it.

Though giving China more control over the world is REALLY REALLY bad for us.

[telygroar]

我开始说普通话是因为我们有了一个良好的开端

[Draco-Onis]

Who wants to bet which dictator told Trump that 5 billion dollar figure since even our own government can't figure out how he came to that number.

[Templar 331]

Another day forward with this administration is another decade back for our relations with the world.

If the British start invading I'm joining them.....

[Draco-Onis]

Well hopefully we can avoid WW3 despite Trumps best efforts to start it.

Though giving China more control over the world is REALLY REALLY bad for us.

Trump's presidency is the best thing to ever happen to China, the wins they have gotten under him will go a long way in the future. There's simply no way to undo all the damage he has done we can't unmake those deals they struck.

[JohnBrown1917]

Love to see the US lose its infleunce.

[Santti]

Another Trump failure to throw on the pile. And this is very much a Trump failure.

Love to see the USA lose its infleunce.

I don't know, someone is going to fill the holes left by USA eventually. And there are precious few big boys that could can fill those holes.

Europe? Busy blowing raspberries at home.

China? Fuck no, I'd rather drop the soap and get fucked by the USA, as they might at least buy me a dinner afterwards.

Russia? Fucking broke.

Also, aren't you Gilrak? Where did this Communism shtick came from?

[Edge-]

Love to see the US lose its infleunce.

Sure, because China being the dominant world power sounds so amazing. What with their stomping on human rights in Hong Kong and their human rights abuses with the Uighur people. It doesn't make the US any safer, quite the contrary it makes us less safe.

[Skroe]

This is more complicated that the headline.

The big complication is that South Korean-Japanese relations have gone to a real bad place for a variety of reasons, and the US has not occupied its traditional role as the mediator because, well, the Trump White House isn't serious about running our affairs.

If South Korea and Japan patch it up - and they will - then there isn't much of an issue. They will because both country's defense are entirely integrated into the United States and they are unwilling and unable to stand up a fully independent defense.


And the China thing is little more than a political document. That's South Korea shooting a shot across Japan's bow... not so much the US. It doesn't have the significance you probably think it has.

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Also, aren't you Gilrak? Where did this Communism shtick came from?

Yes it's Gilrak.

The US is not losing its influence. Not in the way people like him mean anyway.

Remember, the world is recongifuring for the New Cold War. So sides are being drawn (frankly, slower than I expected). There will be two spheres, the US sphere and the China sphere, with a weak international order between.

That means (and is functionally observed) that the US and China are pulling away from everyone else when it comes to global power, even though the relative power gap between them narrows.

[jeezusisacasual]

This was bound to happen at some point due to the proximity to China. I assumed more would start to cast off the US during the next financial hiccup / setback as a way to protect the citizenry. It comes down to monetary means which moves the world again which American business helped build but i still do not understand how they are not willing to take ownership of the growing Chinese state? It is on them along with elected officials from the late 70s until recently to understand they are wrong that embracing a world capitalistic area would ever democratize China. The blame needs to be owned by those who promoted it.

[Elegiac]

This is more complicated that the headline.

The big complication is that South Korean-Japanese relations have gone to a real bad place for a variety of reasons, and the US has not occupied its traditional role as the mediator because, well, the Trump White House isn't serious about running our affairs.

If South Korea and Japan patch it up - and they will - then there isn't much of an issue. They will because both country's defense are entirely integrated into the United States and they are unwilling and unable to stand up a fully independent defense.

And the China thing is little more than a political document. That's South Korea shooting a shot across Japan's bow... not so much the US. It doesn't have the significance you probably think it has.

I feel like a lot of these tensions would go away if Japan just acknowledged that they did a colonialism.

[Dendrek]

Regardless of what tensions might exist between S Korea and Japan or S Korea and the US, one of the worst things they could ever do is to rely on China.

Which is worst? The neighbor who used to bully you in high school but has grown up since then? The neighbor who has been your friend for a very long time, but has recently gone off his meds and is having some problems at home? Or the neighbor who you've personally witnessed killing cats in his front yard, and who is best friends with your ex who is constantly plotting to kill you?

[JohnBrown1917]

Regardless of what tensions might exist between S Korea and Japan or S Korea and the US, one of the worst things they could ever do is to rely on China.

Which is worst? The neighbor who used to bully you in high school but has grown up since then? The neighbor who has been your friend for a very long time, but has recently gone off his meds and is having some problems at home? Or the neighbor who you've personally witnessed killing cats in his front yard, and who is best friends with your ex who is constantly plotting to kill you?

The friend who backed a dictatorship in your country*

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Sure, because China being the dominant world power sounds so amazing. What with their stomping on human rights in Hong Kong and their human rights abuses with the Uighur people. It doesn't make the US any safer, quite the contrary it makes us less safe.

Both are shit, so meh.

[Dendrek]

The friend who backed a dictatorship in your country*

Fair point. So I guess it's best to become best friends with the psychopath a few houses down instead.

[Skroe]

I feel like a lot of these tensions would go away if Japan just acknowledged that they did a colonialism.

They never will. And frankly, it wouldn't do what you may think it would.

The United Kingdom has acknowledged its colonial legacy to the point that it's committed a kind of geopolitical suicide as recompense for 250 years of global spanning Empire. Has acknowledgement of its history made relations with other countries easier? Not at all. Because the UK's former colonial holdings (the troublesome ones) really aren't interested in letting bygones be bygones. Really they want nothing from the British at all, other than to fuck right off. If anything they want things the British can't give.

There is also the ongoing question of how responsible are people for the crimes of their forebearers. As we move further and further away from World War II and the Colonial era, that's going to become more complicated. Take for example the American expansion westward (which is what the US did during the age of Colonialism). Am I responsible for the native American genoicide and displacement, even though one half of my family didn't arrive here until the 1890s and the other didn't arrive here until 1946? Are Germans born since 1990 inheriting the responsibility for the Holocaust and World War II?

Politicians in countries pull on these strings for political advantage, but they really aren't looking for a resolution. "Japan the Unrepentant" will forever have more currency in neighboring countries than "We're good with Japan now", because people will have heard from their grand parents and great grandparents of what the Japanese did.

So in the end, what's the entire fucking point? As ever, money and control. South Korea and Japan can both be mollified through this route. It is a transactional relationship.

[Twdft]

One of Trumps chants is "America First", but when he is done with all of this it will be "America Alone".

[caervek]

Love to see the US lose its infleunce.

It's shocking the amount of damage Trump has done to the USA's global standing/influence, and I don't mean that as a throwaway term it is shocking.

I mean look at Turkey for example, when Trump came to power there was a genuine worry that Turkey may end up at war with Russia (so much so that the government in my country had sought legal clarification that we were not obliged to help a NATO ally if they started a conflict). Compare that to today where Turkey's government has a distinct anti-American (or at least anti Trump) position and are actively buying SAMS from Russia while negotiating the sale of aircraft.

I mean, this must have been an actual conversation that happened at the white house:

WH aide: Mister President, it appears Turkey are negotiating to buy Russian SAM systems.

Trump: Don't worry, I know just how to deal with China.

WH aide: Oh-kay, well sir our normal response is to offer to sell them a superior American made system at a cheaper price, that way we make money, our defence sector prospers and an ally gets a nice increase incapability.

Trump: Nobody knows more about business and deals than I do, tell them that if they buy the stuff from Gorbachev then they're out of the F-35 club, no planes for them.

WH aide: Er, sir are you sure that's the position you want to take? It could drive them to buy planes from them too?

Trump: Yes, if they want to play hardball we'll hit them right where it hurts, in our wallets!

WH aide: Okay sir we just got word back, looks like they're now talking with Russia about buying planes to replace the F-35, and lots of them as they're cheaper, just like literally everyone said would happen.

Trump: Take this note to Erdogan, It explains how he is a bad decision maker and not a tough guy, I'm sure it will convince him to side with us and not Stalin. Oh and ask if he has any dirt on Biden.

[Elegiac]

They never will. And frankly, it wouldn't do what you may think it would.

The United Kingdom has acknowledged its colonial legacy to the point that it's committed a kind of geopolitical suicide as recompense for 250 years of global spanning Empire. Has acknowledgement of its history made relations with other countries easier? Not at all. Because the UK's former colonial holdings (the troublesome ones) really aren't interested in letting bygones be bygones. Really they want nothing from the British at all, other than to fuck right off. If anything they want things the British can't give.

There is also the ongoing question of how responsible are people for the crimes of their forebearers. As we move further and further away from World War II and the Colonial era, that's going to become more complicated. Take for example the American expansion westward (which is what the US did during the age of Colonialism). Am I responsible for the native American genoicide and displacement, even though one half of my family didn't arrive here until the 1890s and the other didn't arrive here until 1946? Are Germans born since 1990 inheriting the responsibility for the Holocaust and World War II?

Politicians in countries pull on these strings for political advantage, but they really aren't looking for a resolution. "Japan the Unrepentant" will forever have more currency in neighboring countries than "We're good with Japan now", because people will have heard from their grand parents and great grandparents of what the Japanese did.

So in the end, what's the entire fucking point? As ever, money and control. South Korea and Japan can both be mollified through this route. It is a transactional relationship.

Yes, and that's the point - it's pretty difficult to sustain the narrative of "Japan the Unrepentant" when it actually stops being so in reality.

As for acceptance of responsibility?

If you're willing to claim membership of a particular polity, civilization, or culture as a point of pride, you should also be willing to accept responsibility for that polity's sins. Especially if said sins continue to have lasting impacts in the current era.

You don't get to enjoy all the hoorah of patriotism and then sweep the negative aspects of that history under the rug.

[Stormspark]

Another day forward with this administration is another decade back for our relations with the world.

If the British start invading I'm joining them.....

I've already got a UK flag and I'll be flying it on Flag Day and July 4. If there are ever UK or EU troops in the US I will definitely be on their side.