[UK] General Election 2019

[Kallisto]

To be honest, why would anyone care for those 7 billion people over their own? Why should I care for people activley trying to fuck me over through no fault of my own? EG. Iain Duncan Smith activly tried to fuck over disabled people. I personally hope that becomes a cripple the most horrible and painfully way possible and gets fucked by the system he created. So I ask, why on Earth would I care about someone like him?

You shouldn't care about IDS. But someone who has done you no ill will deserves to be trated the same as every other human that has done you no ill will regardless of DNA.

Simply put we're all fucking human and treating people like shit because "They're the other." for whatever reason is sickening. Regardless of skin colour, ethinicity, sex, gender, sexuality. You know things people have no choice over.

[[Apok]]

Have you tried to apply for Carers Allowance? https://www.gov.uk/carers-allowance
I'd apply for that so you can at least show any employer that you left to care for people. Also, previous employers are not allowed to give negative references, although they can refuse to give one. I'd say that saying you "just walked out" is negative.

The whole not allowed to give negative reference is somewhat of a misnomer and references just have to be accurate and truthful, as i was in a probationary period at said job, having changed jobs a few months earlier after workingfor the same company for 7 years mostly it's a case of "Failed probation due to a prolonged period of absence without Prior notice" or along those lines.

I am no longer caring for that family member nor my nephews in the capacity as i was and thus am not eligible for carers allowance, can be a struggle at time .

And yeah i understand how terrible the whole system for PiP, had a family member who has certain mental health issues, along with PTSD and sever epilepsy Ruled as fit to work simply because she could perform some basic actions, this apparently meant that none of her issues barred her from work, despite several supporting documents and a 12 page letter from her consultant explainign exactly how they affect her. ATOS needs to go.

[Theodarzna]

Or it does exist but you're so blind with "Muh daughter is more important than 7 billion people because I'm a fucking cunt." that you can't see it and want to force us into nation states that will inevitably go to war like all nationalist fucking do.

First, yeah, duh, I value my own child more than anyone else on Earth. Only a avid poster on /r/Childfree would fail to grasp that concept.

Second, War and conflict is inevitable. Nationalists and even Fascism is ultimately a crisis of modernity since Liberalism desires pluralism, and democracy is supposed to involve representation, Fascism itself was response to failures of representative democracy— fascists just have a thicker commitment to representation (on a group basis) which inevitably a pluralistic democracy trying to represent everyone can't do since you can't please everyone. The wars of the early 20th century have a lot to do with a lot of things, being simplistic about it doesn't really make me think your dreamworld is well thought out.

This is NOT saying that authoritarian nation states solve problem either. Because they will be subject to the same international market forces. They just won't be pretending to give a shit what anyone internally thinks about it.
See China. Or even the EU ... just ask the Greeks, Italians, or the like.

What I'm saying is we are caught in a huge structural contradiction that nobody is talking about. And if the so called left have their way they will just accelerate the process of market integration without political sovereignty. Eg. Open borders.

[Kallisto]

First, yeah, duh, I value my own child more than anyone else on Earth. Only a avid poster on /r/Childfree would fail to grasp that concept.

Second, War and conflict is inevitable. Nationalists and even Fascism is ultimately a crisis of modernity since Liberalism desires pluralism, and democracy is supposed to involve representation, Fascism itself was response to failures of representative democracy— fascists just have a thicker commitment to representation (on a group basis) which inevitably a pluralistic democracy trying to represent everyone can't do since you can't please everyone. The wars of the early 20th century have a lot to do with a lot of things, being simplistic about it doesn't really make me think your dreamworld is well thought out.

This is NOT saying that authoritarian nation states solve problem either. Because they will be subject to the same international market forces. They just won't be pretending to give a shit what anyone internally thinks about it.
See China. Or even the EU ... just ask the Greeks, Italians, or the like.

What I'm saying is we are caught in a huge structural contradiction that nobody is talking about. And if the so called left have their way they will just accelerate the process of market integration without political sovereignty. Eg. Open borders.

Open borders though are the greatest thing to happen. People should not be forced to be stuck in places they were given no choice on with birth. People should be able to live and work wherever they fuck they want. To claim otherwise is to imprison people in basically wide open cages.

[Theodarzna]

That depends on what the desires and dreams of the working class is though doesn't it? It's not always as cut and dry as that, if they were the perfect working mans party, there would still be those who would vote simply because they don't like the look of the person or what has been written/said about them across different forms of media.

So you default to the Paul Mason position? Basically that the Working Classes are uncoth and must be directed by their betters. Shocking that they might resent that attitude and turn towards the party that doesn't make a habit of publicly calling them drooling idiots, thugs, or bigoted unrepentant heathens.

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Open borders though are the greatest thing to happen. People should not be forced to be stuck in places they were given no choice on with birth. People should be able to live and work wherever they fuck they want. To claim otherwise is to imprison people in basically wide open cages.

People have plenty of things about their lives they cannot chose. Moreover people aren't entitled to be welcomed anywhere they want to plop down their things and have a go at living there. Finally it destroys the power of workers since they will have an unlimited amount of competition around the world crippling any power they might hold.

Great position and sales pitch if you are a Lib Demo or a Davos Man Neo-Liberal. Not exactly a Labour position to hold. Your proposition is essentially "Lets create a one World Government and trust us, Oligarchy won't be a problem, sure the center of power will be vastly distant to the average person's lives but trust me, this will work! I listened to a John Lennon song!"

[Tommi]

You shouldn't care about IDS. But someone who has done you no ill will deserves to be trated the same as every other human that has done you no ill will regardless of DNA.

Simply put we're all fucking human and treating people like shit because "They're the other." for whatever reason is sickening. Regardless of skin colour, ethinicity, sex, gender, sexuality. You know things people have no choice over.

Oh no, I agree with you. Someone who has done me no ill, I'll gladly help them out. Fuck, I just gave someone £300 coz they were looking to go to a payday loan coz of hard times. I told them to pay me back whenever, and not to leave themselves short just to pay me back. I'm the first to help people out if I can coz I know how hard shit can be when you have no money and nowhere to turn. Thankfully, I'm at a confortable stage now that I can do that.

[[Apok]]

So you default to the Paul Mason position? Basically that the Working Classes are uncoth and must be directed by their betters. Shocking that they might resent that attitude and turn towards the party that doesn't make a habit of publicly calling them drooling idiots, thugs, or bigoted unrepentant heathens.

Not at all, and to turn against that party and vote for one whose head has a track record of insulting the knowledge of the general public can be hardly seen as a win.

As said i come from a working class background i am from and live in an area that has been hit hard by austerity and left school with no qualifications (won't go into why thats another topic and doesn't really have bearing on this debate). yet somehow i have managed to educate myself to a decent standard on a large range of topics. Most people aren't bothered enough to do that and are happy being spoonfed information.

I am of the position that people should endeavour to understand what it is they are voting for and the repurcussions it could have rather than believing what the most outrageous headlines tell us.

[Tommi]

Huh, why is it that half of GenOT UK people are disabled.

Meh, you get people who fleece the system that fuck it up for the us genuinely disabled people. I linked my significant history a few posts up showing how fucked my body is.

I think that people who abuse the system and are caught should be imprisoned for life. Harsh? Maybe. But it's fraud and needs to be punished hard to send a message.

[Kallisto]

So you default to the Paul Mason position? Basically that the Working Classes are uncoth and must be directed by their betters. Shocking that they might resent that attitude and turn towards the party that doesn't make a habit of publicly calling them drooling idiots, thugs, or bigoted unrepentant heathens.

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People have plenty of things about their lives they cannot chose. Moreover people aren't entitled to be welcomed anywhere they want to plop down their things and have a go at living there. Finally it destroys the power of workers since they will have an unlimited amount of competition around the world crippling any power they might hold.

Great position and sales pitch if you are a Lib Demo or a Davos Man Neo-Liberal. Not exactly a Labour position to hold. Your proposition is essentially "Lets create a one World Government and trust us, Oligarchy won't be a problem, sure the center of power will be vastly distant to the average person's lives but trust me, this will work! I listened to a John Lennon song!"

And your position is "Oh you were born in some place that has no access to necessities. Well fuck off and die because you better not come over here." what is more evil. Denying people something necessary or opening borders so that people can actually get the necessities.

Also, no a one-world government isn't essentially going to go oligarchy, that is just your far-right nutter going into your muh technocracy again. You have been found out so many times Theo.

Also I couldn't give a fuck about Lennon. Plus anyway if someone moves over here and sets up his own business that can do job better why shouldn't that person get the work over someone who has been around in same place?

[Theodarzna]

Not at all, and to turn against that party and vote for one whose head has a track record of insulting the knowledge of the general public can be hardly seen as a win.

As said i come from a working class background i am from and live in an area that has been hit hard by austerity and left school with no qualifications (won't go into why thats another topic and doesn't really have bearing on this debate). yet somehow i have managed to educate myself to a decent standard on a large range of topics. Most people aren't bothered enough to do that and are happy being spoonfed information.

I am of the position that people should endeavour to understand what it is they are voting for and the repurcussions it could have rather than believing what the most outrageous headlines tell us.

If those Working Class issues matter so dearly, than loyalty to the EU should have been easy to cast off. The idea of holding that hostage to serve essentially a Neo-Liberal institution, for the sake of corporate supply chains is plainly daft IMHO.

[Tommi]

The whole not allowed to give negative reference is somewhat of a misnomer and references just have to be accurate and truthful, as i was in a probationary period at said job, having changed jobs a few months earlier after workingfor the same company for 7 years mostly it's a case of "Failed probation due to a prolonged period of absence without Prior notice" or along those lines.

I am no longer caring for that family member nor my nephews in the capacity as i was and thus am not eligible for carers allowance, can be a struggle at time .

And yeah i understand how terrible the whole system for PiP, had a family member who has certain mental health issues, along with PTSD and sever epilepsy Ruled as fit to work simply because she could perform some basic actions, this apparently meant that none of her issues barred her from work, despite several supporting documents and a 12 page letter from her consultant explainign exactly how they affect her. ATOS needs to go.

Yeah, I suppose it's kind of a grey area with the what is negative and whatnot.

It's not just ATOS mate, Maximus are just as bad. They send an actual false report for my PIP, causing me to lose Mobility ( and Motability car) completely, from 16 points to 4, simply becuase I use opiates to control pain and so can walk a bit more. Yeah, try taking 200MG Tramadol in one go and see how that affects you (you used in general). In hindsight, I should have appealed it, but I was just glad to keep basic daily living compnent as it ment I could get a car using that and I didn't want to go through stress of appeal even though I would have won it. Plus I was getting a really good deal on a new car, 0% instrest brand new Toyota Aygo automatic that i'll own in 4 years. Didn't want to lose my daily living component as well as mobility.

[[Apok]]

If those Working Class issues matter so dearly, than loyalty to the EU should have been easy to cast off. The idea of holding that hostage to serve essentially a Neo-Liberal institution, for the sake of corporate supply chains is plainly daft IMHO.

Less to do with corporate supply chains an more to do with the myriad of things that we gain from being a member of the eu, Re-training and reskilling programs here in the north east are predominantly run through charities which are funded via the eu social fund. along wiht other benefits. it's less about being held hostage and more to do with as i said people wanting to claim a victory for the sake of being on the winning side for a change, whether that damns us all or not.

[Theodarzna]

And your position is "Oh you were born in some place that has no access to necessities. Well fuck off and die because you better not come over here." what is more evil. Denying people something necessary or opening borders so that people can actually get the necessities.

Also, no a one-world government isn't essentially going to go oligarchy, that is just your far-right nutter going into your muh technocracy again. You have been found out so many times Theo.

Also I couldn't give a fuck about Lennon. Plus anyway if someone moves over here and sets up his own business that can do job better why shouldn't that person get the work over someone who has been around in same place?

If you can't achieve your utopia at the local level how are you going to do it planet wide?

As for your characterization; yeah, I don't think any singular country is a one stop charity, nor are its people obligated to at the point of a gun be charitable to the whole planet. I don't believe the money I work for is for everyone on earth, It is for the people I love first, my life is for them before anyone and before any stranger.

Second, ALL GOVERNMENTS become oligarchical, that is the Iron Law of Oligarchy. And as for "Muh Technocracy" I've never had anyone respond to my positions with a case against it. Your position I guess is "These people are obviously morally good and its unpossible that anything bad could happen!" it is essentially a magical thinking of "Credentials = Morally Good or Trustworthy". Also Technocracy is always a tool of the powerful, a means of enacting punitive policies on the masses that would be rejected democratically. Technocrats exist to bully the lower classes on behalf of powerful benefactors.

And finally, you admit your core position is Capitalist. At least we can stop with the pretensions of being some bleeding heart socialist. Solidarity? Who needs it! Cheap coffee and consumer good please! Pfffftttt. No Wonder Labour went down in flames.

[Tommi]

So Tories have the majority now.....

[Theodarzna]

Less to do with corporate supply chains an more to do with the myriad of things that we gain from being a member of the eu, Re-training and reskilling programs here in the north east are predominantly run through charities which are funded via the eu social fund. along wiht other benefits. it's less about being held hostage and more to do with as i said people wanting to claim a victory for the sake of being on the winning side for a change, whether that damns us all or not.

Retraining has proven painfully ineffective; the United States is easily the best example of how that doesn't work at all. Those programs A) Don't work, B) Are unrealistic, C) Don't address issues of power and control.

"Learn to Code" was always a dead loser.

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So Tories have the majority now.....

I can now bask in the atomic meltdown and salty hysterics which will boil down to P.M.C types kvetching "How come all the people whose problems we have been ignoring while we called them stupid gammon racists who don't know what's good for them didn't vote for us?"

[Dhrizzle]

So Tories have the majority now.....

Not quite the massive landslide the exit poll suggested but a comfortable +27 with 22 to be announced.

[Graeham]

Also... propaganda really needs to be taken a look at. It is way too strong and powerful nowadays to let go unregulated.

So long as it were regulated across the board, sure - but let's not kid ourselves, that isn't likely to happen and will just result in overreach and further erosion of rights to free expression/engagement.

[[Apok]]

Retraining has proven painfully ineffective; the United States is easily the best example of how that doesn't work at all. Those programs A) Don't work, B) Are unrealistic, C) Don't address issues of power and control.

"Learn to Code" was always a dead loser.

Whilst i agree somewhat with that, i have seen many people gain new employment and happier lives from some of the said retraining programs.
Whilst not worded as such increased worker power and control was somewhat integrated into the labour manifesto.

[Graeham]

I can now bask in the atomic meltdown and salty hysterics which will boil down to P.M.C types kvetching "How come all the people whose problems we have been ignoring while we called them stupid gammon racists who don't know what's good for them didn't vote for us?"

I'm not going to hold my breath that they'll learn from the experience. Which is sad, since it'll likely just lead to even more Tory rule in the future.

[Kallisto]

If you can't achieve your utopia at the local level how are you going to do it planet wide?

As for your characterization; yeah, I don't think any singular country is a one stop charity, nor are its people obligated to at the point of a gun be charitable to the whole planet. I don't believe the money I work for is for everyone on earth, It is for the people I love first, my life is for them before anyone and before any stranger.

Second, ALL GOVERNMENTS become oligarchical, that is the Iron Law of Oligarchy. And as for "Muh Technocracy" I've never had anyone respond to my positions with a case against it. Your position I guess is "These people are obviously morally good and its unpossible that anything bad could happen!" it is essentially a magical thinking of "Credentials = Morally Good or Trustworthy". Also Technocracy is always a tool of the powerful, a means of enacting punitive policies on the masses that would be rejected democratically. Technocrats exist to bully the lower classes on behalf of powerful benefactors.

And finally, you admit your core position is Capitalist. At least we can stop with the pretensions of being some bleeding heart socialist. Solidarity? Who needs it! Cheap coffee and consumer good please! Pfffftttt. No Wonder Labour went down in flames.

My core is not capitalist.

Solidarity? With humanity as a whole as long as their not people that act as if they are superior by just being born "pure", like the fuckers that live around here. Which basically means freedom of movement mixed with a proper tax system that pays for Nationalised healthcare, integrated transport system (with private choices for those that choose it), Water, green energy, a push towards universal basic income because we know automation is coming and best to be ready now before it is too late.

You talk about solidarity well I'll stick with people who didn't treat me like shit for being born half foreign like it is some kind of crime in this nationalistic shit stain of Eastern England.

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I can now bask in the atomic meltdown and salty hysterics which will boil down to P.M.C types kvetching "How come all the people whose problems we have been ignoring while we called them stupid gammon racists who don't know what's good for them didn't vote for us?"

55-56% aka A MAJORITY didn't choose this government