[UK] General Election 2019

[Dhrizzle]

Well the wife is always keen to point out that tax avoidance is not evasion so go crazy with that! It's mostly Pann's theory that has done it for me. A small majority for BoJo and a reliance on the ERG would potentially be much worse than this. The only thing the man cares about really is being popular, it's quite possible that having won over the north he might actually start trying to help it and turn away from the hard right in his party.

Oh dear...I think I'm in denial aren't I? That's going to mean anger comes in January when we start seeing the shape of things to come.

I think it's Farage who cares most about popularity (or at least attention,) BoJo is more likely looking to sell us out to the billionaires and big businesses so he can follow Blair to the dinner-speech market

- - - Updated - - -

As someone that has a mild disability and a long term health condition, I really hope the NHS will not be sold off.

I have several friends suffering from mental or chronic illnesses who have really suffered under the Tories. When the exit poll came out one of them made a Facebook status basically pleading with people in similar positions not to do anything drastic... so far the worst I've seen is someone with cancer considering stopping chemotherapy so they won't have to live through a full term Tory government.

[DarkAmbient]

The three day week, you say? That thing that happened under a Tory government? Yup, that certainly sounds unfair to me.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. A lie repeated so many times that people just repeat it as if it were true. And it is used as a stick to beat Labour with. And you wonder why we despair at the power of the media in this country?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week

Perhaps I should have clarified that I was referring to the militancy of the mining union. Because of Labour's connection with unions people associate all of the union related strife with Labour rather than the governing power at the time. Same thing with the Miners' Strike in the 80s. Instead of saying, "Wow, the Tory government really fucked up there" they say "Typical unions stirring trouble, you really want to vote Labour and give the unions all that power again?"

Perception over truth.

[Theodarzna]

We do also have a different mind set and culture. One geared more towards respecting people's privacy but also not Imposing on others or making a big scene, which I think changes the narrative. We're also I think in the whole alot less emotional and religious and generally accepting of anything that can be backed up by firm science.

Obv's we do have a problematic element currently protesting out side schools in Birmingham, but there only serving to anger people and show why those classes are needed.

In the UK I also feel we don't belive all rights are equal. And the right to freedom of religion is the bottom of the tree and first to be void if it is used to infringe on others.

Wokeness is also really an Anglophonic wide thing, but if anything is bigger in the former colonies and commonwealth. Bourgeoise narcissism though is nearly universal across the west, and Wokeness is a feature of bourgeoise narcissism IMHO, a form of class legitimization, a point of contention that a class of credentialed brahmins have superior morality and thus a justification in metaphysical terms for technocratic political power. I'm not saying the UK is void of Wokester politics, Jo Swinson is obviously there, and Laurie Penny was from the UK, but I believe she left for greener pastures.

Wokesterism is much more potent in the United States, Canada and to a lesser extent Australia because after New-Atheism and Atheism Plus, Social Justice became the new thing the Center-Left Liberals defined themselves by, since being irreligious caused problems with the very religious Arabs, Hispanics and Black Americans in the United States.

[Theodarzna]

Most of us are just fine with the idea of treating women and blacks as humans, thanks.

Who does idpol help? it helps right wingers whose brand of idpol aligns with larger social groups, it helps left-liberal political professionals and wannabes to attack the left, it helps neurotics get affirmation of their personhood from other anonymous neurotics online. there's no core of a good idea there, no baby to throw out with the bathwater.

The most defensible position is a united front along class lines. It already includes everyone the idpol weirdos scream about including who is actually on board with a genuine left political program. All other considerations aside, one has to objectively wonder about the pertinence/usefulness of a conceptual construct that is so constantly and easily "subverted" against it professed goals.

[Monster Hunter]

Yes, people think that individual policies sound good. But the graph under the one you wanted us to look at shows that, when all the policies are taken as a whole, people didn't think they were affordable or that Labour would manage the economy well. But the most important policy of all - Brexit - is where Labour failed the most.

Edit: I hope Tarandis isn't wasting his time replying to me, I put him on ignore some time ago.

Shhhhhh the don't want to look at that graph because it hurts there feelings.

It's like talking to brick walls, except a brick wall is more electable.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Shhhhhh the don't want to look at that graph because it hurts there feelings.

It's like talking to brick walls, except a brick wall is more electable.

Oh, you are still here? I thought you'd given up after I proved you utterly wrong about the whole "policies aren't popular" thing. Now, you were saying something about brick walls I think?

[Monster Hunter]

Oh, you are still here? I thought you'd given up after I proved you utterly wrong about the whole "policies aren't popular" thing. Now, you were saying something about brick walls I think?

Was Playing rugby.

You missed the graph at the bottom of ur link that shows im right.

Nice try though 6/10 for effort.

Seems you Bois can't buy a win this week.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Was Playing rugby.

You missed the graph at the bottom of ur link that shows im right.

Nice try though 6/10 for effort.

Seems you Bois can't buy a win this week.

Oh god, you really don't understand anything do you? You said, flat out, that the policies of Labour were the problem. Then continued with a whole stream of "logic" from that starting point. I linked you to a set of data the categorically proved that the policies were popular, some of them massively so. The fact that people didn't trust Labour to enact those policies successfully is nothing to do with the policies themselves. You could change the policies and people STILL wouldn't trust them. Which was the end of your point; that they should have changed the policies.

So no, the last chart didn't show you were right. Not even close. But I'm not holding my breath that you are going to get this. Nothing you've posted suggests you can.

[Monster Hunter]

Oh god, you really don't understand anything do you? You said, flat out, that the policies of Labour were the problem. Then continued with a whole stream of "logic" from that starting point. I linked you to a set of data the categorically proved that the policies were popular, some of them massively so. The fact that people didn't trust Labour to enact those policies successfully is nothing to do with the policies themselves. You could change the policies and people STILL wouldn't trust them. Which was the end of your point; that they should have changed the policies.

So no, the last chart didn't show you were right. Not even close. But I'm not holding my breath that you are going to get this. Nothing you've posted suggests you can.

You linked to a you gov poll (you gov where we're predicting a close fight BTW) that litteraly and I mean litteraly showed exactly what I've been saying for months that one at a time is fine but all together you bumble fucked the election for us!!

Who predicted this outcome.... Oh yea me. Maybe, just maybe I know a little bit more about the demographics I live in and how they think than you do. I mean you full admit your autistic, this, sociology is as much your weak area as spelling, hand eye coordination and balance is mine.

It fucking angers me this, you point to some bloody graphs that basic show exactly what I said months ago, stamp your feet and proclaim how right you are and then sit there getting pissy when labour has less bloody seat then Michel foot and the left has gone from opposition to irrelivance in the country.

Thanks, thanks a fucking ton for 5 more years of fucking shitty torys.

Lucky labour might hae lernt there lesson and listen to the people who were warning them of this and not the ones stuffing there noses up corbyns arse hole.

- - - Updated - - -

So you didn't just get it wrong then?

- - - Updated - - -



I am not "for" it, or against it, it is just not something that interests any one that much. We have bigger problems.

People who go on about it all the time or complain about it all the time are just as bad as each other. So, some feminist group in a shitty midwestern uni campus said they hate all men or something. I don't give a shit. It doesn't matter. No one died.

- - - Updated - - -



I am sensing "boy with working class roots desperately wants to be accepted by his masters" here. Do you have a crush on one of the other players who has aristocratic origins and vaguely resembles a distant Father? It is a Ken Loach drama waiting to happen.

I gather you have never played rugby or any sport and you look down on people who do because they made fun of you in school right?

[Monster Hunter]

You didn't predict anything.

- - - Updated - - -



...Or maybe I just don't enjoy sticking my head between other men's legs repeatedly.

I mean if your than insecure in your sexuality it stops you being physically active that sounds like your issue.

You could probly do with an outlet for your aggression and possible some actual freinds irl, might help you with that prolem you seem to have of losing you shit when people disagree with you.

We also shower naked in front of each other. Does that make you angry too?

You sound rather intolerant for a supposed far left person.

Oh and yea I did predict it, called it multiple times that labour's gonna get washed with Corbyn.

[Theodarzna]

I am not "for" it, or against it, it is just not something that interests any one that much. We have bigger problems.

People who go on about it all the time or complain about it all the time are just as bad as each other. So, some feminist group in a shitty midwestern uni campus said they hate all men or something. I don't give a shit. It doesn't matter. No one died.

Earlier Kallistro revealed that his entire endorsement of Open Borders is purely an INCEL level grudge against a collective because someone was mean to him who I'm guessing was Ethnically a White British person and to boost he likes cheaper stuff and made a purely calculated capitalist case for it. It was a kind of ethnic narcissism coached as being this citizen of the world schtick, but ultimately was just personal bitterness and resentment with self interest as justification.

The problem of IDPOL is that it's obviously very dumb. Labour lost for a variety of reasons, but ultimately their view on Brexit was the biggest one. Labour was infested with Remainers and P.M.C Liberals whom viewed the Working Class as nothing more than Lumpen reactionary bigots who are too dumb and too evil to be allowed a political voice and that they could only repent by vesting power in some credentialed Londoners whom would reverse Brexit. But unlike the LibDems who had the balls to run on precisely that, they tried to hide it which nobody believed. The traditional labour strongholds of working class support abandoned the party in droves, in part due to contemptuous demeaning elitism of professional class opportunistic brats like Ash Sarkar and Owen Jones, who actively smeared left wing unionists as fascists/fascist sympathizers.

But it is true, in the UK IDPOL isn't as big a deal outside of university campuses and parts of London. Corbyn was on the wrong side of Brexit, and all the zanny promises to Nationalize everything, have Greta Thunberg declared a Saint in the Church of England (I jest ofcourse) and erect a Hammer and Sickle on every street corner were seen as nothing more than a distraction from the issue of Brexit where his party were basically LibDems, elitist pricks who had no respect for them and what is worse, thought they could seriously deceive those voters with thinly veiled distractions.

[Huehuecoyotl]

You linked to a you gov poll (you gov where we're predicting a close fight BTW) that litteraly and I mean litteraly showed exactly what I've been saying for months that one at a time is fine but all together you bumble fucked the election for us!!

So you aren't saying that they needed different policies. You are saying that they just needed one policy? That by trying to say all the things that needed fixing, and how they would fix it, they made it too complicated for the voters?

So you are saying that Labour treated the voters as intelligent enough to cope with multiple things at once. But you think they should have just focused on one thing. Presumably because you think the voters are too stupid to cope with more than one thing? Is that the mistake you think Labour made?

All your contradictions are making my head hurt. Please try and explain what point you are trying to make, because I can't make sense of what you are trying to say.

[Monster Hunter]

Earlier Kallistro revealed that his entire endorsement of Open Borders is purely an INCEL level grudge against a collective because someone was mean to him who I'm guessing was Ethnically a White British person and to boost he likes cheaper stuff and made a purely calculated capitalist case for it. It was a kind of ethnic narcissism coached as being this citizen of the world schtick, but ultimately was just personal bitterness and resentment with self interest as justification.

The problem of IDPOL is that it's obviously very dumb. Labour lost for a variety of reasons, but ultimately their view on Brexit was the biggest one. Labour was infested with Remainers and P.M.C Liberals whom viewed the Working Class as nothing more than Lumpen reactionary bigots who are too dumb and too evil to be allowed a political voice and that they could only repent by vesting power in some credentialed Londoners whom would reverse Brexit. But unlike the LibDems who had the balls to run on precisely that, they tried to hide it which nobody believed. The traditional labour strongholds of working class support abandoned the party in droves, in part due to contemptuous demeaning elitism of professional class opportunistic brats like Ash Sarkar and Owen Jones, who actively smeared left wing unionists as fascists/fascist sympathizers.

But it is true, in the UK IDPOL isn't as big a deal outside of university campuses and parts of London. Corbyn was on the wrong side of Brexit, and all the zanny promises to Nationalize everything, have Greta Thunberg declared a Saint in the Church of England (I jest ofcourse) and erect a Hammer and Sickle on every street corner were seen as nothing more than a distraction from the issue of Brexit where his party were basically LibDems, elitist pricks who had no respect for them and what is worse, thought they could seriously deceive those voters with thinly veiled distractions.

Your touching on something I've noticed that's very important especial amongst Internet community's.

There are types of left winger just as there are types of right winger and there are those who espous left wing policy not because they want people to be better but because they are simply angry and vengeful at society or a certain group, those people arn't legitimate left wing, there comming from a place of hate.

I mean the soc account making guy Tarandis has desided to go with the insinuate rugby is gay insult, that's very telling of his actual psychology because it infers there A. Something wrong with being gay and B. Infers conservative moral standards around male contact and nudity.

- - - Updated - - -

You do know there are ways of being physically active which are less homoerotic right?

What's wrong with being homoerotic?

[Theodarzna]

So you aren't saying that they needed different policies. You are saying that they just needed one policy? That by trying to say all the things that needed fixing, and how they would fix it, they made it too complicated for the voters?

So you are saying that Labour treated the voters as intelligent enough to cope with multiple things at once. But you think they should have just focused on one thing. Presumably because you think the voters are too stupid to cope with more than one thing? Is that the mistake you think Labour made?

All your contradictions are making my head hurt. Please try and explain what point you are trying to make, because I can't make sense of what you are trying to say.

Nobody, save the very pollyannish, believed sincerely any of those policies were anything other than the intelligentsia in the party trying--badly--to play hide the ball over its contemptuous position on Brexit which was the LibDems policy. Labour's core was infested with Remainers who viewed the Working Class voters who wanted Brexit as fascist super Nazi's that were too dumb and too evil to be allowed a voice in politics. Corbyn might have believed in them, but in the end they were just throwing everything and the Kitchen sink to avoid their position on Brexit being mentioned.

[Monster Hunter]

You seem to be lumping in Ash Sarkar with that group when she doesn't fit just because she's ethnically Indian, in which case you can fuck off. She did in fact do very well in helping mobilize the youth vote, the older demographics don't know who she is. I do not recall her being "woke", she's a communist in the true sense, you seem to think that just because someone is non-white they must be going on about identity politics all the time.

There is some truth to the notion that Labour needs more overt representation from the working class. That is why I never endorsed Corbyn in the first place. It would be interesting to see what happens if Jess Philips is elected. But you can take it too far. If you pack the shadow cabinet with working class people for the sake it, then it is just another form of identity politics.

And trying to pretend the working class haven't made a fucking stupid decision here is absurd: whatever you think of Brexit five years of Tory government is going to hurt them badly. That's not pompous elitism that's a statement of the obvious.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah there's this really twisted cunt on the internet I know of who joked about my relatives being concentration camp guards.

Says the anti-semetic guy who has a problem with a little male on male contact.

Does a bit of man love scare you?

Also you never answered, so what do you find wrong with something being homoerotic?

Come on now you brought this up.

[Theodarzna]

Your touching on something I've noticed that's very important especial amongst Internet community's.

There are types of left winger just as there are types of right winger and there are those who espous left wing policy not because they want people to be better but because they are simply angry and vengeful at society or a certain group, those people arn't legitimate left wing, there comming from a place of hate.

I mean the soc account making guy Tarandis has desided to go with the insinuate rugby is gay insult, that's very telling of his actual psychology because it infers there A. Something wrong with being gay and B. Infers conservative moral standards around male contact and nudity.

On a serious note I admire INCELs for their cruel morbid honesty. They hate women because they are too ugly, too repulsive and too psychologically damaged to ever get one to touch their dicks without money involved. And that, that is a kind of honesty you don't see these days.

- - - Updated - - -

You seem to be lumping in Ash Sarkar with that group when she doesn't fit just because she's ethnically Indian, in which case you can fuck off. She did in fact do very well in helping mobilize the youth vote, the older demographics don't know who she is. I do not recall her being "woke", she's a communist in the true sense, you seem to think that just because someone is non-white they must be going on about identity politics all the time.

There is some truth to the notion that Labour needs more overt representation from the working class. That is why I never endorsed Corbyn in the first place. It would be interesting to see what happens if Jess Philips is elected. But you can take it too far. If you pack the shadow cabinet with working class people for the sake it, then it is just another form of identity politics.

And trying to pretend the working class haven't made a fucking stupid decision here is absurd: whatever you think of Brexit five years of Tory government is going to hurt them badly. That's not pompous elitism that's a statement of the obvious.

Ash Sarkar is a Communist? She gave a fundamentally anti-socialist outlook in her latest piece in the Mirror. All these Literal Communist talking heads are on a trajectory heading away from socialism. Ironically (or perhaps not) this latest defeat is only speeding up the process. The attitude that they are too stupid or evil to be allowed a political voice is precisely why they are going to reject this fake Bougie Liberalism that cosplay's as Socialist for Twitter.

[Monster Hunter]

On a serious note I admire INCELs for their cruel morbid honesty. They hate women because they are too ugly, too repulsive and too psychologically damaged to ever get one to touch their dicks without money involved. And that, that is a kind of honesty you don't see these days.

Eh I can see that, I do prefer people who hold reprehensible belifes to be open so I can avoid them. What I can't stand at all is people like Tarandis the soc account making dude who clearly hold some very disgusting views as he/she has shown in this thread now and then behind an overt and agresive support for left wing policys

Just because you shout angrely on a forum in support of socialism dosnt absolve you of being a salty vindictive twat who aparantly has a problem with me spending my afternoon between a man's legs.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Nobody, save the very pollyannish, believed sincerely any of those policies were anything other than the intelligentsia in the party trying--badly--to play hide the ball over its contemptuous position on Brexit which was the LibDems policy. Labour's core was infested with Remainers who viewed the Working Class voters who wanted Brexit as fascist super Nazi's that were too dumb and too evil to be allowed a voice in politics. Corbyn might have believed in them, but in the end they were just throwing everything and the Kitchen sink to avoid their position on Brexit being mentioned.

Utter and complete bollocks. Just nonsense.

Brexit is a "solution" looking for a problem. It won't fix any of the problems that this country, and its working people have. It won't regenerate Northern towns. It won't suddenly create well paid jobs. It won't fix the NHS (whatever buses try and tell us). It won't get rid of zero-hours contracts, or stop dodgy landlords. It won't stop the rich and companies from being allowed to dodge tax. It isn't going to help us to avoid killing the planet and everyone on it.

What Labour came up with were solutions to the real problems. The things that actually need fixing. The things that the Tories avoided saying anything about, while they focused on ramming home the "get Brexit done" message. Their campaign was based on the electorate being stupid and voting against their own interests because of a single slogan. And to my eternal shame as a native of this country, it worked.

The saddest part of this, of course, is what's going to come next. Because we'll get Brexit, and then in 5 years time everything those poor people were suffering with will still be there. Worse in a lot of cases. So where do the Tories go with their next election strategy? I hate to say it, but I suspect we will start to see a ramping up of attacks on those people deemed to be "foreign" that are still here. Because if we leave the EU and that doesn't fix it, it must be because of "others" in our country still. Those people that don't believe in Brexit. That don't speak the right way. That wear strange clothing. It worked for Brexit, so why not saddle that horse up and see where it takes you next time?

But sure. It's Labour and Corbyn that are the bad guys in all this.

[Monster Hunter]

Utter and complete bollocks. Just nonsense.

Brexit is a "solution" looking for a problem. It won't fix any of the problems that this country, and its working people have. It won't regenerate Northern towns. It won't suddenly create well paid jobs. It won't fix the NHS (whatever buses try and tell us). It won't get rid of zero-hours contracts, or stop dodgy landlords. It won't stop the rich and companies from being allowed to dodge tax. It isn't going to help us to avoid killing the planet and everyone on it.

What Labour came up with were solutions to the real problems. The things that actually need fixing. The things that the Tories avoided saying anything about, while they focused on ramming home the "get Brexit done" message. Their campaign was based on the electorate being stupid and voting against their own interests because of a single slogan. And to my eternal shame as a native of this country, it worked.

The saddest part of this, of course, is what's going to come next. Because we'll get Brexit, and then in 5 years time everything those poor people were suffering with will still be there. Worse in a lot of cases. So where do the Tories go with their next election strategy? I hate to say it, but I suspect we will start to see a ramping up of attacks on those people deemed to be "foreign" that are still here. Because if we leave the EU and that doesn't fix it, it must be because of "others" in our country still. Those people that don't believe in Brexit. That don't speak the right way. That wear strange clothing. It worked for Brexit, so why not saddle that horse up and see where it takes you next time?

But sure. It's Labour and Corbyn that are the bad guys in all this.

Yes it is labour, selling politics is like selling a product, you might have a good product, you might hae the best product, but if you fail at marketing then it's not the snake oil salsmans fault for out selling you.

Look at your own you gov poll. The clear problem was Labour failed to sell its complete package, and that's in them, these people didn't vote with smiles for the Conservatives, the Conservatives didn't win them, Labour lost them, there is a diferance there.

[Theodarzna]

But sure. It's Labour and Corbyn that are the bad guys in all this.

Corbyn was one of few honorable persons left in Labour; if anything its the pretentious Blairite fakes who hoped to use him as a shield to trick the Working Class into reverse Brexit. I doubt he'd have been allowed his agenda.

If Brexit were such a non-issue than why not simply go all in for Leave, and then focus on those Issues and keep those voters? Why? Because treating them as dumb serfs who need to just fall in and obey their betters was the real game. It was a con and they butchered Corbyn's political aspirations with it.

If there is any soul who I truly pity it is Corbyn's, the man was done dirty by the Owen Jones types. Maybe he was more radical than I on a lot of stuff, but I never for a second doubted his convictions. If anything if he had truly been free I'd suspect he'd have just been a Leaver. That and the decent Leaver MP's in the Labour party who were betrayed by these P.M.C fakes.