[UK] General Election 2019

[Theodarzna]

Yes it is labour, selling politics is like selling a product, you might have a good product, you might hae the best product, but if you fail at marketing then it's not the snake oil salsmans fault for out selling you.

Look at your own you gov poll. The clear problem was Labour failed to sell its complete package, and that's in them, these people didn't vote with smiles for the Conservatives, the Conservatives didn't win them, Labour lost them, there is a diferance there.

That and given that people for good reason suspect all those policies are just smoke and mirrors so nobody notices the planned betrayal of the Referendum.

[Theodarzna]

Have you met any women? They often go very weird looking men, the more psychologically damaged the better.

Females tend to be disproportionately attracted to displays of either physical or social dominance, and also to men who make them feel good. Looks help but not as people think.

I am a woman, so yes.

And this is a direction I did not expect this to turn thread wise. Interesting.

[Monster Hunter]

Do what you like (thanks for that disgusting image). I just think you should bypass the mild concussion and jumping around in the mud and the cold, and go straight for the cocktails. The one time I ended up in a gay club it seemed very pleasant. Can't say the same about rugby.

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If the snake oil salesman has 100 million quids worth of free newspaper advertising then he is going to outsell you.

Why do you find the image disgusting?

Your not one of those guys who sees two bloaks kissing or comes across gay porn, finds it disgusting but thinks you have no problem because you didn't say anything are you?

[Monster Hunter]

I am a woman, so yes.

And this is a direction I did not expect this to turn thread wise. Interesting.

He's an interesting fellow. I'll give him that.

[Thalassian Bob]

You understand the last time BoJo put No Deal on the table all he did was concede NI to the EU so that they would change some words in the non binding PD right? But sure, I can't wait to see what else he can give away to the EU for virtually nothing.


Didn't they do that already and decide that leaving the EU was a terrible idea then dropped it as a talking point?


Representative Democracy whereby you vote someone in who's job it is to be better informed than you and then make decisions on your behalf is anti democratic. Got it! Lets rule by referenda instead, it's going so well so far.


Labour's position was to honour the referendum by giving you a vote on the actual deal we would be getting. Surely that's a more logical position than mindlessly implementing a result with absolutely no clue what it holds for the future of the country. I'm waiting for you to ask me about the demos btw, I work with them shoulder to shoulder every day, let me enlighten you as to the respect you should have for their views on this election and what they think will happen once they Brexit. I have a feeling that "credit" you think you owe them might evaporate.

I hate quote dissections, so I'll just respond to your separate paragraphs by number.

1. The PM has never, as far as I'm aware, been able to threaten No Deal in negotiations with the EU thanks to parliament voting against it.

2. Populist Eurosceptic parties are seeing surges in support all across the member states, if the UK doesn't sink into the Atlantic ocean when we leave the EU, i imagine a lot of people in some of the more Eurosceptic countries will probably be making noises for similar withdrawals. It won't be for a good few years though, I don't think.

3. That seems to be a bit of a straw man at the start there. I never said representative democracy is anti-democratic. That would be absurd. I stated that trying to undermine or reverse a referendum decision that received the largest democratic mandate in British history is anti-democratic. People try to claim that the referendum was advisory but advocates on both sides, including the pro-remain PM at the time, stated clearly and repeatedly that the result of the referendum would be respected and enacted.

And, I think governance by referendum seems to have worked pretty well so far considering it has already massively reduced EU immigration and (probably not unrelatedly) also coincided with wages rising at their fastest rate in more than a decade. And we haven't even implemented the decision yet.

4. Honour the referendum by giving the public a decision between "the deal our party doesn't actually really support" and "just packing the whole thing in"? That doesn't seem like a particularly valid or appealing means of "honouring" the vote. And that's why they lost.

And finally, I'm not really interested in your anecdotal snobbery regarding your co-workers if I'm being honest.

Well... those have been pretty pro-Brexit and behold...

Yes, they are but to propose that voters are incapable of making their own minds up on issues and simply regurgitate what the media tells them is rather insulting.

Thankfully it seems to be limited to the boomers(and above). Just gotta wait till they die off.

What abhorrently ugly ageism. I bet you're the type of person that accuses Leave voters and Tory voters of bigotry as well. Wonderfully self-aware it seems!

[Kallisto]

Earlier Kallistro revealed that his entire endorsement of Open Borders is purely an INCEL level grudge against a collective because someone was mean to him who I'm guessing was Ethnically a White British person and to boost he likes cheaper stuff and made a purely calculated capitalist case for it. It was a kind of ethnic narcissism coached as being this citizen of the world schtick, but ultimately was just personal bitterness and resentment with self interest as justification.

Funny how I never once spoke about finances you basically pushed that in as some kind of Gotchya. Then you act as if it was just 1 person when it was basically the majority of the community?

Maybe just maybe someone sees citizenship as something someone has no choice over like Sex, race, sexuality and goes "Well since we have rules against discrimination on those three since there's no choice in the matter why not go one step further."

[d00mGuArD]

The saddest part of this, of course, is what's going to come next. Because we'll get Brexit, and then in 5 years time everything those poor people were suffering with will still be there. Worse in a lot of cases. So where do the Tories go with their next election strategy? I hate to say it, but I suspect we will start to see a ramping up of attacks on those people deemed to be "foreign" that are still here. Because if we leave the EU and that doesn't fix it, it must be because of "others" in our country still. Those people that don't believe in Brexit. That don't speak the right way. That wear strange clothing. It worked for Brexit, so why not saddle that horse up and see where it takes you next time?

You are probably right on this part. People have shown time and again with their vote for brexit that they care much about Immigration and NHS (most of the brexit talks were about these).

Any party that wants to go to power, should have clear policies how to deport illegal immigrants and how to improve NHS. Whether that party is left, right middle, up, down, sideways... that's what they will need to get to power.

Not saying that I agree or not, but that is what the votes indicate, and every party should really consider this.

(ps people of course care about money as well, but everyone is claiming "more jobs, more money" anyway. there is no difference to be had there)

[Dhrizzle]

Corbyn was one of few honorable persons left in Labour; if anything its the pretentious Blairite fakes who hoped to use him as a shield to trick the Working Class into reverse Brexit. I doubt he'd have been allowed his agenda.

If Brexit were such a non-issue than why not simply go all in for Leave, and then focus on those Issues and keep those voters? Why? Because treating them as dumb serfs who need to just fall in and obey their betters was the real game. It was a con and they butchered Corbyn's political aspirations with it.

If there is any soul who I truly pity it is Corbyn's, the man was done dirty by the Owen Jones types. Maybe he was more radical than I on a lot of stuff, but I never for a second doubted his convictions. If anything if he had truly been free I'd suspect he'd have just been a Leaver. That and the decent Leaver MP's in the Labour party who were betrayed by these P.M.C fakes.

Why do you think the working class of the UK is too dumb to change their minds about Brexit not being all they were promised? Don't forget if you look at vote-share more people voted for parties who either wanted to revoke Brexit outright or try for a better deal and open it up to the public. If you consider that the wealthier elites like Johnson, Farage, Mogg etc. are the ones who really pushed and stand to profit from a no-deal or hard Brexit then it seems reasonable to assume that a large number of the working class don't like the idea of those types dictating what shape Brexit would take.

[Thalassian Bob]

Immigration is at exactly the same level it was ten years ago. I can't imagine why you would refer to EU integration when EU citizens generally contributed more to the economy than the rest of the world, other than that you hope no one would actually notice you weren't talking about general immigration.

Wages have undergone the worst decade since the Napoleonic wars, a single quarter of growth hardly changes like that. It is like saying this Ice Age is warm because it gets warmer in summer.

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Most people are obviously not capable of doing an analysis of the economic impact of Brexit. That is like getting all offended because someone accused the British public of not being able to perform brain surgery or understand quantum physics. A national economy is an incredibly volatile control system and any one who thinks they understand it completely is by definition incompetent.

Any one who could, with a high degree of accuracy, predict the impact of Brexit should be investing significant amounts of their wealth into the assets they think will be favored. Very few are doing that because it isn't possible.

Immigration has thankfully been steadily declining since 2016, though, yes, it is still massive. And of course wages will be depressed when the labour market is constantly flooded with low-skilled workers.

I wasn't talking about every voter being a Milton Friedman, but simply having the capacity to make informed decisions about what they perceive to be the best course of action for themselves and their loved ones and, by extension, the nation they belong to.

[Aeula]

It’s more clear than ever that Labour needs a Woman of Colour at the helm if they’re to have any hope in 2024. Hopefully they’ll elect Diane Abbot to champion communism for that next crucial election.

[Thalassian Bob]

Immigration now is at the exact same high level it has been for 10 years. EU workers have been replaced with their poorer, less skilled counterparts from outside the EU. Wow I feel have taken back control of our borders again....

Additionally, if we pretend for a second that we aren't just replacing Poles with Chinese workers, your argument makes no sense. EU migration did not depress living standards for most because cheap labour produces cheaper products for people to buy. The only people to suffer a net loss were the 6% or so of the population engaged in unskilled labour. Now it should be BLINDINGLY obvious those people are being replaced by automation faster than they are by foreign labour, you just have to go into a bank or supermarket.

There is no hope for unskilled labour in this country. Those jobs are not coming back, ever. The only thing that is going to help those people is UBI or some other imaginative measure that deals with the new economy.

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Oh I see, so I'm supposed to avoiding calling stupid people stupid because of some misguided political correctness. There is no injecting a massive amount of volatility into a control system is going to be good for the nation collectively.

It is very simple, most of the working class have this ugly tribal prejudice against foreigners, and newspapers exploit that prejudice very effectively to the advantage of their owners and their corporate friends. There is no magic homespun wisdom they possess on this issue. They are simply turkeys voting for Xmas.

I just showed you immigration has started to decrease for the first time since 2012. But, you're right, immigration remains at mass levels. An exit from the European Union which allows the United Kingdom to control immigration from member states is only the first step in striving to achieve what the vast majority of the population wants - less immigration. The most difficult task will be to pressure the big parties, all of which favour mass immigration, to actually start to seriously reduce the number of people being accepted into the country.

In theory, cheap labour should produce cheap products but companies don't reduce prices as production costs go down. Shit initiatives like the sugar tax are pushing food prices up.

I'm the last person you'll find advocating for political correctness, I'd just warn you that if you and people like you keep thinking of the working class that way, referring to them as "stupid and prejudice(d)", they will keep pushing back at the ballot. Labour lost seats this election that it's held for 70+ years. The 'Red Wall' has been knocked down because people are sick of being looked down upon, chastised and sneered at by the people who are supposed to be their advocates.

[Blur4stuff]

Wait, am I finally seeing one thing Brexiters think will happen? Higher wages for working class? That's something we can actually see comes true or not.

[LeGin Tufnel]

Any civil servants here who might dare voice opposition to the whims of your incompetent masters?

See ya...

Cummings is going to have you out on your ear and replaced by "external advisors" who (in addition to being paid 10x your annual salary per month) will be more than happy to take your place.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ice-guarantee/

Drain the swamp! Yeah. Politicisation of the civil service is a great start!

[Fantaris]

You can take the USA as example, the offer of employees has been decreasing over the past few years, unemployment is at a massive low... but:
1. Wages are still stagnating just the same
2. Companies are moving out of the country to places where cheap labor is more readily available
3. Less money is being invested in the economy

Side-note: Even while unemployment is at an all time low and the demand for labor becomes higher... actually blue-collar labor jobs (manufacturing, transport, warehouse logistics etc.) are still becoming less and less on offer at the same trend as always. They're disappearing...

You can't escape globalism by closing your borders if you don't close them for goods, companies and emigrants too.

Yeah growth is in "disruptive" technology like Uber. They get round existing regulations and can really exploit their workforce. So you can always find some sort of job but it is one where you have fucking terrible pay and conditions.

Btw Thanks for bringing up the US example-obviously hasn't helped the working class any. Of course it should be obvious-xenophobia is not an intelligent way to manage an economy.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Any civil servants here who might dare voice opposition to the whims of your incompetent masters?

See ya...

Cummings is going to have you out on your ear and replaced by "external advisors" who (in addition to being paid 10x your annual salary per month) will be more than happy to take your place.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ice-guarantee/

Drain the swamp! Yeah. Politicisation of the civil service is a great start!

This is the man that is too lazy to do one thing properly. And too stupid to do one thing right. And he's decided that he's going to try and radically alter the infrastructure that supports any change he does try and make at the same time. Speaking as someone who has worked in IT for over 30 years and watched large scale projects go tits-up regularly due to management incompetence, I can only say that this isn't going to end well.

I'm sure all the morons that voted for him will be cheering this as a good thing.

[Fantaris]

Any civil servants here who might dare voice opposition to the whims of your incompetent masters?

See ya...

Cummings is going to have you out on your ear and replaced by "external advisors" who (in addition to being paid 10x your annual salary per month) will be more than happy to take your place.


Drain the swamp! Yeah. Politicisation of the civil service is a great start!

This is a good thing. Can you imagine the Tories trying to do anything without the aid of a civil servant?

[Kallisto]

Any civil servants here who might dare voice opposition to the whims of your incompetent masters?

See ya...

Cummings is going to have you out on your ear and replaced by "external advisors" who (in addition to being paid 10x your annual salary per month) will be more than happy to take your place.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ice-guarantee/

Drain the swamp! Yeah. Politicisation of the civil service is a great start!

Sounds like a bunch of new Unelected Bureaucrats running the country. But I guess that's ok because they fell out of a vagina in the right place.

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A Breakdown on how flawed FPTP is.

One party gets gets 13,966,451 and gets 365 MPs
Two parties combined get 13,965,499‬ but only 214 MPs between them.
One party gets 1,242,380 and ends up with 48 MPs
Another gets 3,696,423 and only 11. Same party increased their vote since last time but loses 1 seat in the parliament.
Meanwhile, another party gets less than 400k less than the one with 48MPs but only gets one.
While elsewhere in the nation a party with 153,265 gets 4
Or we look at the party with 600k getting 0

So tell me once more how FPTP is in any way democratic? When it looks like semi democracies end up with more accurate results that relate between the way people voted and the outcome of their parliaments.

[LeGin Tufnel]

Sounds like a bunch of new Unelected Bureaucrats running the country. But I guess that's ok because they fell out of a vagina in the right place.

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A Breakdown on how flawed FPTP is.

One party gets gets 13,966,451 and gets 365 MPs
Two parties combined get 13,965,499‬ but only 214 MPs between them.
One party gets 1,242,380 and ends up with 48 MPs
Another gets 3,696,423 and only 11. Same party increased their vote since last time but loses 1 seat in the parliament.
Meanwhile, another party gets less than 400k less than the one with 48MPs but only gets one.
While elsewhere in the nation a party with 153,265 gets 4
Or we look at the party with 600k getting 0

So tell me once more how FPTP is in any way democratic? When it looks like semi democracies end up with more accurate results that relate between the way people voted and the outcome of their parliaments.

But... but... but... strong governance.

[Graeham]

They're too stupid or blinded by ridiculous notions to know any better.

You - and your ilk - are exactly why the Tories will probably win the next general election. The people who voted have some legitimate concerns. Instead of working to address those concerns, they're branded 'stupid'. The blood isn't just on the hands of the Tories at this point for exactly that reason.

[Kallisto]

You - and your ilk - are exactly why the Tories will probably win the next general election. The people who voted have some legitimate concerns. Instead of working to address those concerns, they're branded 'stupid'. The blood isn't just on the hands of the Tories at this point for exactly that reason.

What are legit concerns?

Immigration? No people should be able to move freely.
Jobs? Not EU level
Sovereignty? Got it already
Unelected Bearucrats? For every 1 in the Eu there are 20 in the UK
Democracy as a whole? FPTP is Not a democracy. EU with a more proportional one is much much much more democratic.