Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
7
LastLast
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post

    Also, I meant my response as Blizzard hand-waiving the question, since they haven't yet thought it through. I think the very purpose for Revendreth as a sort of purgatory is problematic, as it suggests there are objective right and wrong ways to live your life, no matter how you yourself may feel about it. With a thing like that included in their afterlife-system, Blizzard isn't equipped to answer such questions. Shadowlands will be an interesting take on Warcrafts deathrealms, but it will require suspension of disbelief.
    Which then opens up an entire can of worms, because from a game perspective we are universally hailed as great beings, despite having literally murdered infants.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Same Arthas, same mind from the moment he was born until he died on icc. There's no separate entity. Everything was Arthas.
    He is, and is not. Arthas was not perfect, but what he became when he lost his soul, is another story. Think of it this way. You as a person, have inhibitions. Those inhibitions are part of yourself and a big part of what defines you. Maybe you got an alcoholism problem and lose your inhibitions. You do some bad shit, insult people, etc etc. You get sober and realize "Shit, I done some shit" and go to AA meetings and all of that. You are redeemable.

    Arthas took on frostmourne. Lost his soul which warped him. Sadly, he couldn't just "sober up" with time and realize he done some shit. Just like a drunken person might just drink more and never un-sober enough to realize the shit he did, Arthas couldn't just get his soul back. Why would he, he believes he is ok without it and got a big whole crew of souless people with him. He dies, he now has his soul back. What does he do with it? If he feels remorse for the shit he did, he is redeemable. If not, he is not. The end of WOTLK seems to point that he went back to who he was prior to frostmourne.

    So yeah I think he can be redeemed. I also think that the shadowlands work in a different way in the sense that they must not care all that much if you killed a fuck ton of people or not. It's the land of the dead. They probably see redemption more in a psychological way then a "what did you do" way. Can the person repent? Can the person look back and see it's mistakes? Can that person work toward being a productive part of the shadowlands? Or will they still try to corrupt, destroy, etc etc.

  3. #83
    One of them is repentant (supposedly), the other tore out his own heart so doesn't give a crap.
    Anyone who thinks Arthas had any humanity left when he died forgot about him no longer having a heart. That was the metaphor for his last piece of humanity dying - he was never redeemable from that point on.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2019-11-26 at 03:23 PM.

  4. #84
    Bloodsail Admiral melkesjokolade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,069
    Kael'thas only wanted to save his people. He wasnt evil.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Cheese View Post
    Arthas was generally a terrible person. A prideful prince. He thought he was better than everyone and it showed even before he got his hands on Frostmourne. And afterwards he decided to sack and destroy his own kingdom, as well as Quel'thelas. While killing countless other innocents. Kael'thas has never been responsible for outright genocide. He only wanted what was best for his people. Even if they had to serve the Legion to survive.
    You can literally apply the same logic to Kael, and no he did not fucking decide to sack his own kingdom, at that point he was corrupted by Nerzul and shadowmourne, everything Kael did was on his own choosing, it's pure retarded this logic, killing is killing no matter is you ad a 0 or not at the end, Kael is as monster as Arthas was, only difference is he didn't have enough time or power to do as much damage as Arthas

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    Arthas is in the Maw specially because the plot needs him to be. All the shit people are defending Kael with Arthas also did before losing his soul. None of that matters though.

    We’re in Fanfictionlands now.
    If you're not willing to humor the discussion topic of the thread, why bother commenting at all?

  7. #87
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    25,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Arbiter might not be susceptible to the same failing as us mortals, but if there is some personality to it (her?) it's possible great experience may not necessarily be just a boon to it. The reason why some old hats are forced to retire from positions they've held for decades is to get new perspective into the position with hope of overall improvement.

    Also, I meant my response as Blizzard hand-waiving the question, since they haven't yet thought it through. I think the very purpose for Revendreth as a sort of purgatory is problematic, as it suggests there are objective right and wrong ways to live your life, no matter how you yourself may feel about it. With a thing like that included in their afterlife-system, Blizzard isn't equipped to answer such questions. Shadowlands will be an interesting look into Warcrafts deathrealms, but it will require suspension of disbelief.
    We'd need to know more about the Arbiter's personality to determine that. Personally, I envision it as a more machine-like intelligence that doesn't dabble in subtext or emotional context - but no idea if that will be what it ultimately proves to be.

    The Shadowlands does indeed posit that there is an axiomatic element to moral judgments, specifically and objectively a "right" and "wrong" way to go about things. Of course, this is a pretty prototypical model for a fantasy afterlife scenario which is pretty in-line with the Warcraft universe as a whole. Morality isn't relative in WoW, it seems, and you will stand in judgment for the content and intent of your actions as compared and contrasted with an axiomatic standard against which you are judged.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by melkesjokolade View Post
    Kael'thas only wanted to save his people. He wasnt evil.
    My demise accomplishes nothing! The master will have you! You will drown in your own blood! The world shall burn! Aaaghh!
    Now, I call out to the spirits of this place. I will give anything or pay any price, if only you will help me save my people.
    Really makes you think.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Really makes you think.
    Both are about equal in terms of mindset, Arthas was able to beat Ner'zhul because he had literally zero regrets, Keal became a legion shill. Arthas just managed to cause far more damage.

  10. #90
    I really doubt Arthas is in The Maw... considering he was corrupted by the Helm and Sword, and finally being free from it at the end of WotLK.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    I really doubt Arthas is in The Maw... considering he was corrupted by the Helm and Sword, and finally being free from it at the end of WotLK.
    Sylvanas saw him there, after she jumped from icecrown.

  12. #92
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    31,955
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingWarrior View Post
    Kael'thas sold the world to the Legion in TBC. Arthas did the same after Blackrock & Roll.

    One of them went to Revendreth, the other went straight for the Maw.
    Depends, we don't know if Arthas is in the Maw but Kael'thas died before all was screwed up, leading him to where he is meant to be anyways.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  13. #93
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    25,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sylvanas saw him there, after she jumped from icecrown.
    It is a bit nebulous as to whether that was the actual maw, or a projection the Val'kyr were showing her like most of the other vignettes Sylvanas sees after killing herself at Icecrown. I mean I personally think it is the Maw, or at least some aspect of it, but that's not made entirely explicit in "Edge of Night" either.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sylvanas saw him there, after she jumped from icecrown.
    Damn Banshee flea...

  15. #95
    Well Arthas was upsetting the cosmic balance of souls (preventing them from going to the SLs). Kael'thas wasn't, so in the grand scheme of the universe I suppose what he did was less destructive and "bad", meaning his soul is worthy of being recycled.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    One of them is repentant (supposedly), the other tore out his own heart so doesn't give a crap.
    Anyone who thinks Arthas had any humanity left when he died forgot about him no longer having a heart. That was the metaphor for his last piece of humanity dying - he was never redeemable from that point on.
    Also this.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Both are about equal in terms of mindset, Arthas was able to beat Ner'zhul because he had literally zero regrets, Keal became a legion shill. Arthas just managed to cause far more damage.
    Basically yeah, but i can't stand this Kael'thas whitewashing going on in this thread.

    I get it, Kael'thas was thrown under the bus during TBC, but what in did in there basically made him unsalvageable.
    Having a pact with the BL is just a gamebreaker unless you have some motive to betray them, which Kael'thas didn't have, especially for someone whose people have seriously suffered at the hands of a Legion creation.

    It's the same shit as with Illidan, where they tried to reinterpretate any action he took despite the fact that those actions were written to clearly portray him as villain.

  17. #97
    The Unstoppable Force
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Where Thrall and the Horde needs me to be
    Posts
    21,626
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingWarrior View Post
    Kael'thas sold the world to the Legion in TBC. Arthas did the same after Blackrock & Roll.

    One of them went to Revendreth, the other went straight for the Maw.
    We don't know if Arthas went to The Maw.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  18. #98
    I feel like it's mostly out of game reasons more than in-game ones.

    Kael, much like Illidan, got shafted hard by "We need a cool flagship villain, what's a good anti-hero we could have fall?" which resulted in Kael'thas being made evil, and then the Illidan book had to double-down on it as part of retconning the events of BC so Illidan was doing the right thing in the wrong ways and made Kael the reason the factions locked onto him as a target. Him showing up in Revendreth feels like a "Sorry, in hindsight we'll fix this" from the writers, which is why I also think at the end of either the zone or covenant storyline, Kael'thas will become the new lord of the Vanthyr and get a new kingdom to rule.

    Arthas meanwhile was always intended to be a fallen hero, hell I'd probably call him one of the most iconic examples of "Protagonist journey to villain" in the entirety of gaming, because even if you separate Prince Arthas from Death Knight Arthas from Lich King Arthas, the former still did a LOT of evil things because he was forced to go about hard choices in the wrong ways like Straholme, betraying both his men and his mercenaries, and willingly taking up Frostmourne. There's a lot less out-of-universe sympathy for him than there is for Kael, who was derailed for the sake of giving us a raid fight.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know if Arthas went to The Maw.
    If Sylvanas of wotlk ended up there, which is more or less a given with how things turned out Arthas would be a premium resident.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by choochooImaPlane View Post
    I feel like when I'm reading this and most people calling Arthas a bratty Prince, never even read his story.
    Forgot about Invincible? He decided to take a horse ride during a rain, pushed Invincible too hard and then was forced to kill him, to end the suffering. That's why he became a paladin, not for the good of the people, but for the "greater good" (to control the events of life).

    He was impatient and brash, and his need for control was what led him so easily into the Lich King's realm. Reason why Arthas then became the Lich King, it's all about control.
    Last edited by Timester; 2019-11-26 at 09:03 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •