Where is the storyline for Sylvanas loyalists?

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Ever heard the expression "bad taste"?

That is still subjective. Someone you think that has bad taste someone else could think otherwise and agree with him. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Gurahk]

Yup. Now it's just crappy story after crappy story that have no connection to each other at all.

Wait, are we talking about BC or Cata or Classic or..?

[schwank05]

Just saying, that your reason for "signing up" was the wrong one, because the Horde isn't supposed to be evil.

They are the Monster Faction that is also the Invading faction, I can't help that they missed out on the opportunity to make them the Evil/ Bad faction, this would have made things so much easier to understand and make much more sense over the years.

[CrawlFromThePit]

That is still subjective. Someone you think that has bad taste someone else could think otherwise and agree with him. Why is this so hard to understand?

Let's say I think something is well made. And you look at that thing and say it's poorly made.

Which one of us is right, which one is wrong? According to you, that's just 2 opinions about the same thing and it automatically make everyone right despite the obvious contradiction. Of course that thing cannot be WELL MADE and POORLY MADE at the same time, right? It HAS a neutral state in the unbiased reality outside of our perspectives. The only way to figure this out is dettaching ourself from our biases, understand the very nature and fundamentals of that thing to weigh in the goods and the bads to reach an objective conclusion representing the level of quality of that thing.

Subjectivity is basically just escaping the knowledge necessary to recognize objectivity and it's just a attitude of respecting that it's fine if people enjoy whatever things around them. I enjoy plenty of bad things. I don't force my opinion on others like you think I do. I only provide information I have. You won't see me talking like this in a car forums, I know nothing about cars, I bet I would love a shitty car without knowing it's shitty. My opinion about that car won't make it a good car because it's an opinion, no, there's an objective truth to the quality of that car, a truth that I don't know because I don't have the knowledge. It's the exact same thing here. I know why the narrative in MoP was terrible, you don't. So you think your opinion has as much value as actual knowledge, this is not true. Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely free to enjoy the story, just like I'm free to have fun in my shitty car. But I won't go around claiming that it's equally as good just because I enjoy it, or under the guise of "it's my opinion therefore it's a valid argument".

There's a lot of stuff I like that I know are bad yet I still enjoy them, because my opinion about those things doesn't align with their objective quality. I'm fine with that, because it's perfectly normal and it's not a big deal. However, I don't deny reality.

So you ask "Why is it so hard to understand?" Well, because it's an insanely complicated matter, it's much deeper than just "I declare subjectivity to trump all forms of reality and make everything equal by decree of perspective ignorance."

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

How can you type so much but say so little?

I know why the narrative in MoP was terrible, you don't. So you think your opinion has as much value as actual knowledge, this is not true. Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely free to enjoy the story, just like I'm free to have fun in my shitty car. But I won't go around claiming that it's equally as good just because I enjoy it, or under the guise of "it's my opinion therefore it's a valid argument".

This part here is just silly. First off, don't go sprouting you know shit and refuse to say it. Second, me and plenty of other people think Mist's story was great and no amount of crying "but I think!" will make it invalid. Get. Over. It. It's subjective.

[CrawlFromThePit]

How can you type so much but say so little?



This part here is just silly. First off, don't go sprouting you know shit and refuse to say it. Second, me and plenty of other people think Mist's story was great and no amount of crying "but I think!" will make it invalid. Get. Over. It. It's subjective.

You understood nothing of what I said. Or worse, you understood but refused to learn, exactly what I said earlier and exactly why I won't waste my time telling you stuff you'll disregard before reading it. I bet you see the notifcation with my name and start thinking or ways to say "no" before reading the post. All you want is to feel like you've proved someone wrong.

There, take your win, so long as you believe you won it means you did, right? But if in my opinion you lost, does it mean you won AND lost? That's not possible, it makes no sense. That's right, contradictory subjectivity makes no logical sense.

One of us won, the other lost, regardless of our opinions. And just like the previous subject, you're free to have your own opinion even if it's the opposite of reality. It's not a big deal.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

You understood nothing of what I said. Or worse, you understood but refused to learn, exactly what I said earlier and exactly why I won't waste my time telling you stuff you'll disregard before reading it. I bet you see the notifcation with my name and start thinking or ways to say "no" before reading the post. All you want is to feel like you've proved someone wrong.

There, take your win, so long as you believe you won it means you did, right? But if in my opinion you lost, does it mean you won AND lost? That's not possible, it makes no sense. That's right, contradictory subjectivity makes no logical sense.

One of us won, the other lost, regardless of our opinions. And just like the previous subject, you're free to have your own opinion even if it's the opposite of reality. It's not a big deal.

All I wanted was for you to share your knowledge that you presented as fact. The fact that you end the conversation while still refusing to say it speaks volume. I'm still here if you decide to man up.

[Mando]

Let's say I think something is well made. And you look at that thing and say it's poorly made.

Which one of us is right, which one is wrong? According to you, that's just 2 opinions about the same thing and it automatically make everyone right despite the obvious contradiction. Of course that thing cannot be WELL MADE and POORLY MADE at the same time, right? It HAS a neutral state in the unbiased reality outside of our perspectives. The only way to figure this out is dettaching ourself from our biases, understand the very nature and fundamentals of that thing to weigh in the goods and the bads to reach an objective conclusion representing the level of quality of that thing.

You can't detach yourself from your biases. you are your biases. "You" is the way you see the world, and how you react to it. Thinking that you can be purely and absolutely objective is just deluding yourself.

Mind you, I'm not saying that "subjectivity trumps all forms of reality" I'm saying that we apprehend the objective world via a subjective lens, made of innate and acquired cognitive paths. It is only via statistics and blinded experiments that you can scientifically tend to objectivity. And quality will never be objective, but a matter of taste. Saying that you can see the true quality of a thing, or a story, is just being patronizing, and flatly wrong.

[CrawlFromThePit]

All I wanted was for you to share your knowledge that you presented as fact. The fact that you end the conversation while still refusing to say it speaks volume. I'm still here if you decide to man up.

What volume does it speak? You claim that's a fact, what fact? I clearly stated why I won't spent an enormous amount of time making a giant post that describes all the technicalities of narrative story telling to explain why the story in MoP is bad. That means it doesn't speak volume when I just do exactly what I said, for the reasons I gave, it doesn't speak anything, it just follows the train of thoughts, there's no secret or underlying message. You WANT it to mean something because that would help your perspective.

But the important point you completely skipped over is when I mentioned, several times, that it's perfectly fine to enjoy whatever you want. So what would be the purpose of going through the trouble of telling you why MoP narrative was bad? Just imagine the wildest possibility that I convince you of the facts, then what? You'll still enjoy the story, you won't stop liking it just because I tell you what's bad about it. So what's the point?

- - - Updated - - -

You can't detach yourself from your biases. you are your biases. "You" is the way you see the world, and how you react to it. Thinking that you can be purely and absolutely objective is just deluding yourself.

Mind you, I'm not saying that "subjectivity trumps all forms of reality" I'm saying that we apprehend the objective world via a subjective lens, made of innate and acquired cognitive paths. It is only via statistics and blinded experiments that you can scientifically tend to objectivity. And quality will never be objective, but a matter of taste. Saying that you can see the true quality of a thing, or a story, is just being patronizing, and flatly wrong.

So I'm not allowed to say it's possible to be objective, but you're allowed to say it's impossible to be objective. That's not how any of this works. How are you gonna prove that no one can possible ever reach the knowledge necessary on a subject to be objective about it? Mind you, many people have reached that about several subjects already, so I'm really curious how you're gonan dig yourself out of that one.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

What volume does it speak? You claim that's a fact, what fact? I clearly stated why I won't spent an enormous amount of time making a giant post that describes all the technicalities of narrative story telling to explain why the story in MoP is bad. That means it doesn't speak volume when I just do exactly what I said, for the reasons I gave, it doesn't speak anything, it just follows the train of thoughts, there's no secret or underlying message. You WANT it to mean something because that would help your perspective.

But the important point you completely skipped over is when I mentioned, several times, that it's perfectly fine to enjoy whatever you want. So what would be the purpose of going through the trouble of telling you why MoP narrative was bad? Just imagine the wildest possibility that I convince you of the facts, then what? You'll still enjoy the story, you won't stop liking it just because I tell you what's bad about it. So what's the point?

If you actually had factual evidence you would have typed it by now. How long has this conversation be going on now? It's clear you are desperately trying to push your opinion that MoP's story was bad simply by saying it's a fact. This show's you have nothing. And you know what? It's completely okay for you to think it was bad, that's your freedom of thought. But please try to understand it is only your opinion.

[CrawlFromThePit]

If you actually had factual evidence you would have typed it by now. How long has this conversation be going on now? It's clear you are desperately trying to push your opinion that MoP's story was bad simply by saying it's a fact. This show's you have nothing. And you know what? It's completely okay for you to think it was bad, that's your freedom of thought. But please try to understand it is only your opinion.

Factual evidence of the good of vaccines are told to anti-vaxxers every day. They still have the opinion that vaccines are bad. And that's for a topic that actually matters, it's a big deal that actually saves lives. So for a subject as irrelevant as the story in a video game, there's no chance you'll change your mind (and neither should you, as stated before, it's perfectly fine to enjoy whatever you want) and I never talked about this to change anyone's mind.

If I give evidence I'll have to explain every points, because it will be things like "contradictory themes clashing with each other and lowering the value of one another by virtue of lack of commitment or depth to one subject" and you'll be like "but that's still your opinion" because you won't understand what I said so I'll have to explain that point too in another even longer post. To actually go through the entire thing, which is years of study and professional experience, would take days to just summarize in many, long forum posts, all that so in the end you realize that it doesn't really matter if what I say is a fact, you'll still enjoy whatever you want, WHICH IS FINE.

I didn't come here to give a lesson on narrative writing, just like your doctor isn't gonna give you a biology lesson to explain your diagnosis, it's a waste of time. The only difference is I'm not shown as a figure of authority or trust, you only see me as a forum dweller like anyone else around here and you think that justifies disregarding everything they say that doesn't align with your belief. You would trust your doctor telling you your diagosis, you would trust a renown writer saying some story is boring, hell I bet you even stopped yourself from seeing a few movies because the reviews were bad. Oh but you won't let someone on the MMO-C forum say such things, you can talk back to them, you see them as equal and never at any moment think they might know more than you do about something.

Simply put, whatever I say you will find a way to convince yourself that it's bullshit, just like anti-vaxxers do. I didn't come here looking to have an argument about narrative writing or subjectivity vs objectivity, you're the one who started this.

[Swnem]

Oh? Did you miss blizzcon? The story is over. That was it. Or so they said in an interview.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Factual evidence of the good of vaccines are told to anti-vaxxers every day. They still have the opinion that vaccines are bad. And that's for a topic that actually matters, it's a big deal that actually saves lives. So for a subject as irrelevant as the story in a video game, there's no chance you'll change your mind (and neither should you, as stated before, it's perfectly fine to enjoy whatever you want) and I never talked about this to change anyone's mind.

If I give evidence I'll have to explain every points, because it will be things like "contradictory themes clashing with each other and lowering the value of one another by virtue of lack of commitment or depth to one subject" and you'll be like "but that's still your opinion" because you won't understand what I said so I'll have to explain that point too in another even longer post. To actually go through the entire thing, which is years of study and professional experience, would take days to just summarize in many, long forum posts, all that so in the end you realize that it doesn't really matter if what I say is a fact, you'll still enjoy whatever you want, WHICH IS FINE.

I didn't come here to give a lesson on narrative writing, just like your doctor isn't gonna give you a biology lesson to explain your diagnosis, it's a waste of time. The only difference is I'm not shown as a figure of authority or trust, you only see me as a forum dweller like anyone else around here and you think that justifies disregarding everything they say that doesn't align with your belief. You would trust your doctor telling you your diagosis, you would trust a renown writer saying some story is boring, hell I bet you even stopped yourself from seeing a few movies because the reviews were bad. Oh but you won't let someone on the MMO-C forum say such things, you can talk back to them, you see them as equal and never at any moment think they might know more than you do about something.

Simply put, whatever I say you will find a way to convince yourself that it's bullshit, just like anti-vaxxers do. I didn't come here looking to have an argument about narrative writing or subjectivity vs objectivity, you're the one who started this.

Now you're comparing thinking MoP's story is good to anti-vaxxers? Sorry but I can't take you seriously anymore.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Now you're comparing thinking MoP's story is good to anti-vaxxers? Sorry but I can't take you seriously anymore.

It's the exact same train of thought. It's believing something based on emotion without having the knowledge to have proper judgment. The only difference between the 2 is that one actually has dire consequences while the other is risk free, but the human brain processes these 2 things the exact same way: notice a subject, analyze with available knowledge, fill the void caused by lack of knowledge with emotions instead, get a result. We do this with everything in life, not just stories and vaccines.

[Daevied]

And the dream of a third faction/multi race factions died with poorly executed lore. Nothing can beat blizz writers lol

[Kithelle]

And the dream of a third faction/multi race factions died with poorly executed lore. Nothing can beat blizz writers lol

Like that was ever going to happen...

[Depakote]

Wait, are we talking about BC or Cata or Classic or..?

every expansion after wod.

[Gurahk]

every expansion after wod.

Hooo the irony.

[rrayy]

If only that was the reaction... that would make sense, but the Loyalists just refuse to see it, they fight tooth and nail against accepting this simple truth, holding onto the objectively wrong belief that Sylvanas gives a shit about them (or, even worse, applauding her for not giving a shit and still following her). This is why I am worried. People really behave like they are part of a cult or religion, making up their own little reality with Sylvanas as an omnicient godlike being that cannot do wrong and because she knows something we don't, all her heinous acts are okay. Case in point, people already using religious terms like "martyr" for her without even knowing what the word means...

As you can expect the new Trailer of Sylvanas beating the shit out of the friggin Lich King without so much as a scratch reinforced this believe even more. By now I am not sure in which ways Blizzard can spell out that Sylvanas is the enemy, she said it herself to the faces of the Loyalists, admited that she was going to kill her "Heroes" in Nazjatar, yet this absurd believe just manages to magically ignore these lines.
Baine and Saurfang are called the enemies, the traitors because they prevented Sylvanas from killing everybody. This logic is so absurd, I can barely wrap my brain around it at all.



So because she failed (because she was stopped by Anduin, Baine, Saurfang and Thrall) that make her attempt of killing you all somehow better? Mkay. I guess she is getting a second chance by literally breaking the sky and the reality of our world tho.

But alas, if you cannot suffer siding with Baine then there is simply no space for you in the game anymore. There are only two sides and there won't be a third faction. Considering Calia is trying to "enlighten" the Forsaken it feels like Blizzard is trying to actively push the evil people out of the Horde, which is nice, considering they were never meant to be the evil faction in the first place. You could of course try to go Alliance, but sadly we do not want the Loyalists any more then Sylvanas does

Which is exhibit A showing how bad Blizzard is at telling a story. NOBODY should have to suffer at the side of a treasonous coward. He should be just as dead as Saurfang. They could have been creative, but they chose the lazy way out

Also, We were the ones that kept us from dyingby defeating Azshara in the Eternal Palace.

[Depakote]

Hooo the irony.

I'm confused.