Was Ner'Zhul the Lich King in Warcraft 3?

[EntertainmentNihilist]

@EntertainmentNihilist


At this point, 3 pages in the thread, and countless other sources on the Internet you can simply Google-search... I can't fathom why you feel this topic still needs discussion. It's been answered every way 'till Sunday.

As I said, my original question was answered, but I now have other, related questions.

[eurojust]

All very true, couldnt have said it better.

3) thats just blizzard being blizzard and retconning the shit out of their lore. at the end of wc3, when arthas climbed the frozen throne, he wasnt more than a puppet, completely loyal and ready to do anything ner'zhul would command him to do. when blizzard planned wotlk, they made arthas his own master again and gave him the "free will" to usurp ner'zhul, simply because arthas was the most popular character back in WC3, and they figured it would draw more people in if Arhas was now the big bad, instead of the puppet he was in WC3. its ofc bullshit, story-wise, but it is what it is now.

Another plothole is how everyone in wotlk knew about the Lich King, and knew that it was Arthas in charge.
Back during Wc3, the undead used to yell "FOR NERZHUL". How come the Forsaken knew that it was Arthas in control now? They were always directly mindcontrolled by Ner'zhul.

[Temp1on2]

You don't get the impression of something ancient playing Warcraft 3? Especially the Human and Undead campaigns in Reign Of Chaos?

I agree, I did.

The nerubians, that were part of the LK's army, seemed ancient - as did the obsidian statues. Moreover I'm sure certain things were described as ancient on Arthas' trip to northrend, if not frostmourne itself. Heavily implying that the LK/undead threat was ancient - perhaps only recently stirring.

[Kellorion]

Hmm...interesting. I wonder if they originally intended Warcraft 3 to take place longer after Warcraft 2 then? Warcraft 3 always seems to give the impression of the Lich King being such an ancient, dark force in the world.

wha.......? o.0
what?

[rated]

I've been thinking about this so I thought i'd ask here to see if anybody knew.

Back before WoW, in the days of Warcraft 3, was Ner'Zhul always supposed to be the Lich King? Or is that something later stories invented?

I couldn't find any reference in Warcraft 3 to Ner'Zhul other than Illidan mentioning he opened the portal that tore Draenor apart, and the Death Knights saying "For Ner'Zhul" at times.

I could be mistaken, but Warcraft 3 and the Frozen Throne seem to give the impression of the Lich King and the Frozen Throne being ancient. Frostmourne is protected by Revenants and on an ancient looking pedestal. The Frozen Throne "spire" is protected by more ancient-looking architecture & obelisks. And overall the whole dynamic just seems like a really ancient and important part of Azeroth.

But this is only 10-20 years after Warcraft 2, right? Does anybody have any information?

(I know chronicle explains these things, but it feels more like chronicles "weaving together" of the stories than what the original writers of Warcraft 3 thought)

During WC3 Ner'Zhul was the Lich King and Arthas was his death knight. At the end of WC3 frozen throne the 2 merged into 1 person. Sometime between end of WC3 FT and WoW Wrath, the lich king was in his little slumber. At this point Arthas "killed" or "got rid of" or what ever other adjective you want to use and became the dominate personality and was the Lich King.

There's a quest about this in northrend and there's a bunch of info on wowpedia...

[huth]

It would be a contradiction in that Muradin learned about this as an ancient weapon, and that the sword was protected by an ancient guardian, and it had an inscription on the dais warning of the sword but it was only recently planted by Ner'zhul.

If Frostmourne was pushed out and recently seeded by Ner'zhul then it makes no sense why he would also plan to make it look so obviously evil either. You'd think he would seed some dragon protecting its ancient hoard rather than a bunch of obvious warnings telling of a cursed sword.

Muradin being misinformed and an ancient guardian protecting a not so ancient sword is not a contradiction. As far as we can see, Ner'zhul put the inscription on the dais(or ordered it).

The whole thing was always a setup. Ner'zhul needed Arthas to willingly take the blade, not just accidentally pick it up.

[Triceron]

Muradin being misinformed and an ancient guardian protecting a not so ancient sword is not a contradiction. As far as we can see, Ner'zhul put the inscription on the dais(or ordered it).

The whole thing was always a setup. Ner'zhul needed Arthas to willingly take the blade, not just accidentally pick it up.

He needed him to take the sword so he intentionally puts artificial roadblocks in the way. It doesn't really make sense narratively if Ner'zhul put the warning on the dais. If he wants to tempt Arthas, he could leave out the curse part completely and have Muradin go along with it. Muradin was all in up till he read the inscription, right? Either way Frostmourne would have tricked them both.

The reason its written the way it was back then was to be a narrative indicator to the audience that Arthas was willingly ignoring the signs and any advice from people getting in his way. It wasn't written to make sense that Ner'zhul planted it all, because it is an obvious inconsistency when you consider how much more effective it would be to omit warning signs on the dais.

[Volardelis]

How is this thread still going on? The Wc3 manual makes it very clear that Ner'zhul was the Lich King in WC3, and the Lich King was a recent creation of the Legion.

[Starfals]

Good question, and all of this - We always need a LK thing. I wonder what happened before him, or the undead never woke up. His arrival started to wake up the dead? Plus shadowlands is going to mess up this part of the lore.. It already sounds off.

[Nero Duskwind]

I think this too.

When i first played WC3 I'd never played the previous games so had no knowledge of any of the characters. When I found out that Ner'zhul was "just" an orc shaman I was like ....oh. I thought he was some primal force - and couldn't work out how he'd managed to break free of the Legion's control seemingly without any power boost shown in-game (Kil'jaeden & archimonde were made out to be so much more powerful than the LK). So I'm somewhat in favour of the retcon that these items origin is more ancient/powerful and Ner'zhul was able to tap into that.

Ner'zhul's raw power theoretically rivaled that of the Legion's lieutenants as it was stated that his consciousness expanded ten-thousandfold while encased in his icy prison as a disembodied set of cursed armor. As he had no corporeal form and no desire to aid the Legion, he could only act through sheer influence, much in the same manner that the imprisoned Old Gods could. The entirety of the Scourge campaign throughout both the main game and the Frozen Throne expansion was essentially Ner'zhul exerting his influence to consolidate his power and orchestrate his freedom from Icecrown Glacier., where Arthas effectively gave his body to host the Lich King's will by donning the Helm of Domination. The lore surrounding Arthas and Ner'zhul "merging" has yo-yo'd far too much to get an accurate idea of what exactly happened in Arthas's subconscious, so this pile of worms best left for another thread. Hopefully, we may get some more answers when Shadowlands hits.

[masterjc]

I've been thinking about this so I thought i'd ask here to see if anybody knew.

Back before WoW, in the days of Warcraft 3, was Ner'Zhul always supposed to be the Lich King? Or is that something later stories invented?

I couldn't find any reference in Warcraft 3 to Ner'Zhul other than Illidan mentioning he opened the portal that tore Draenor apart, and the Death Knights saying "For Ner'Zhul" at times.

I could be mistaken, but Warcraft 3 and the Frozen Throne seem to give the impression of the Lich King and the Frozen Throne being ancient. Frostmourne is protected by Revenants and on an ancient looking pedestal. The Frozen Throne "spire" is protected by more ancient-looking architecture & obelisks. And overall the whole dynamic just seems like a really ancient and important part of Azeroth.

But this is only 10-20 years after Warcraft 2, right? Does anybody have any information?

(I know chronicle explains these things, but it feels more like chronicles "weaving together" of the stories than what the original writers of Warcraft 3 thought)

yes.
it was mentioned several times during Reign of Chaos/The Frozen Throne, that Lich King's name was Ner'Zhul (aka orc from wc2)

even acolytes of Scourge mention "my life for Ner'Zhul"