Should we extend the Nuclear Umbrella to protect Hong Kong?

[Mythic-RaidLead]

It's pretty clear China is an imperial aggressor. It's pretty clear that they must be stopped. Personally, I believe we need to be willing to make very difficult decisions in order to protect freedom and democracy. And I am willing to make very difficult decisions, I do not believe policies should be based on emotional gut reactions, but strictly on the principles of classical liberalism: Bodily Autonomy, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Thought, Freedom of Religion, sovereignty of nation states.

The Chinese Communist Party is an evil empire that must be contained for the benefit of the nations which represent these classical values of the good. China has ZERO respect for religion, and political freedoms. China has proven time and time again to be a Han supremacist nation that oppresses ethnic minorities. We as liberals must control the reactionary disease of the Chinese government. Hong Kong is a liberal country in which it's citizens thrive under a free market capitalist society, with strong freedoms; freedoms of speech, thought, religion and bodily autonomy. China however has a long history of straight up organ harvesting of political prisoners who are NOT guilty of a crime that would warrant such a punishment. Brainwashing and internment of religious people to give up their religion and replace it with CCP worship is deeply evil, and violates freedom of thought.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/201...d-tibet#ada87c

CCP MAGGOTS harvest organs from prisoners who NEVER commit a crime that warrant organ harvesting as a punishment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM1ZzWeshFk

Do you want this regime of evil to extend towards free societies like Hong Kong? We must stop this cancerous growth of evil by any means necessary. I believe we need ALL military options on the table. I'm not advocating for nuclear retaliation, but I believe it would be naive to take it off the table.


THESE PEOPLE ARE WAVING OUR FLAGS AROUND, THEY WANT OUR SUPPORT. We MUST back them, whatever the cost. We MUST NOT ALLOW THE 21ST CENTURY TO BECOME A DYSTOPIAN NIGHTMARE IN WHICH ALL OUR CLASSICAL LIBERAL VALUES ARE CURTAILED.

[Infraction]

[Kokolums]

One possible strategy for resolving Hong Kong is:

1. Inform China that Hong Kong is now covered by the "nuclear umbrella" as you put it.
2. Now offer to make a deal where if China leaves Hong Kong's culture intact, the US will make concessions elsewhere.

This is how the Cuban Missile Crisis was resolved.

1. The USSR put nukes in Cuba.
2. The US blockaded Cuba and warned if they don't remove them, there will be nuclear war.
3. Privately negotiate to where if the USSR removes nukes from Cuba, the US will remove nukes from Turkey.
4. The USSR agrees, nukes are removed from both places quietly, and the crisis is resolved.

China does not necessarily have to take that deal though. And the USSR didn't have to take it either.

[Mythic-RaidLead]

One possible strategy for resolving Hong Kong is:

1. Inform China that Hong Kong is now covered by the "nuclear umbrella" as you put it.
2. Now offer to make a deal where if China leaves Hong Kong's culture intact, the US will make concessions elsewhere.

This is how the Cuban Missile Crisis was resolved.

1. The USSR put nukes in Cuba.
2. The US blockaded Cuba and warned if they don't remove them, there will be nuclear war.
3. Privately negotiate to where if the USSR removes nukes from Cuba, the US will remove nukes from Turkey.
4. The USSR agrees, nukes are removed from both places quietly, and the crisis is resolved.

China does not necessarily have to take that deal though. And the USSR didn't have to take it either.

That's a pretty good idea. Ultimately I just want the Hong Kong system to remain as is. I don't really care if "on paper" they are part of china, I just want their system to remain democratic and free.

[Thekri]

No. That is insane. Not only are nukes not the answer to everything, nukes aren't the answer to anything except someone else using nukes. While it is good to put pressure on China to treat their people better, all military options are off the table and should remain so. Nuclear Weapons doubly so.

[Mythic-RaidLead]

No. That is insane. Not only are nukes not the answer to everything, nukes aren't the answer to anything except someone else using nukes. While it is good to put pressure on China to treat their people better, all military options are off the table and should remain so. Nuclear Weapons doubly so.

Freedom isn't free. If we are not willing to use military action, that would embolden the communists. We need to be willing to make hard decisions.

[CostinR]

Wrong Post, please delete.

[GreenJesus]

One possible strategy for resolving Hong Kong is:

1. Inform China that Hong Kong is now covered by the "nuclear umbrella" as you put it.
2. Now offer to make a deal where if China leaves Hong Kong's culture intact, the US will make concessions elsewhere.

This is how the Cuban Missile Crisis was resolved.

1. The USSR put nukes in Cuba.
2. The US blockaded Cuba and warned if they don't remove them, there will be nuclear war.
3. Privately negotiate to where if the USSR removes nukes from Cuba, the US will remove nukes from Turkey.
4. The USSR agrees, nukes are removed from both places quietly, and the crisis is resolved.

China does not necessarily have to take that deal though. And the USSR didn't have to take it either.

We nearly had nuclear war. We were just one miscommunication away from nuclear annihilation. Probably not a good idea to put ourselves in that situation again.

[CostinR]

Going for the nuclear option is not at all wise at this particular stage. It would be a major escalation over a regional issue that's taking place inside of Chinese territory.

We are witnessing the dawn of a new cold war between China and the United States but no one is ready to start threatening the usage of nukes against one another just yet. The bill signed by Trump is more so then anything a clear cut warning that the US will not tolerate China suppressing democracy in Hong Kong. It's an early and needed step towards confronting China in it's human rights abuses and a major one at that: Consider that China conducts significant violations of human rights and yet unlike so many other countries is not sanctioned for those violations.

Confronting China requires consensus across Washington that is a major geopolitical foe of the United States and a consensus on how to deal with them. Take your suggestion, which any serious national security expert would rightly laugh you out of the room for, how do you imagine it would be implemented?

Would Donald Trump as commander in chief make said decision? Well then Congress, especially democrats who have a significant anti-nuclear wing in their party, would push quite hard against. Congress itself is not at all willing to make such a decision either at this point. So support would need to build for it, and there doesn't exist any political group at this stage that would be willing to advocate for it. Furthermore the military itself would go ballistic over the idea of threatening to use nuclear weapons against China, because China would then respond by ramping up it's nuclear program and building a significant and powerful arsenal that it currently does not posses to counter the United States.

Furthermore the citizens of Hong Kong would likely not support the idea. Japan, a major ally the United States requires to contain China, would despise the decision given their own views on nuclear weapons. Europe would go crazy and virtually no nation would openly agree with the US on this.

You don't take nukes to a street fight in another country.

Not even at the height of the Cold War did any US president, no matter how belligerent, would ever support such a move against the Soviet Union.

I am not however surprised to see someone posting the idea of using military strength to support human freedoms, but this is not how it's done. Ronald Reagan's administration greatly accelerated and increased a military build-up started under Jimmy Carter, but he wasn't a crazy cowboy in using said military nor did he really use it at all that much.

For a president who advocated for a 600 ship fleet and saw the development of much of US military as we envision it in popular culture, to a military that reactivated battleships, Reagan barely used it in actual action: Grenada, Libya are major exceptions to this.

Yet Reagan is widely considered the man who helped end communism, not through military threats, and not acting like a fool at every that moves, but by inspiring people in the east to rise up. It was viewed that if America actually went to war under him or Bush Senior you had royally pissed off the United States and was taken quite seriously.

Nowadays after Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria the US is viewed more like a rabid dog that wants to bite everything that moves, it doesn't help protect human rights in any significant way.

[Hif]

Let me get this straight you want to interfere in the affairs of another country because you feel like it? Didn't you learn anything from Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Libya? In all those countries the US interfered and millions of civilians died and continue to die.

There is a general line of thouht in the muslim world. If you want to fuck up your country side with the US or Saudi Arabia.

[shadowmouse]

Now, run OP's post history and notice that he literally advocates punishing thought crimes.

Here's one of those posts: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...and-CJ-reforms

And let's not forget this gem:

A pool of blood and a corpse on the floor from a failed attempt to gain consent leading to being tortured to death. And yes, I would love to participate in the process of obtaining the consent from the subhuman. The idea of torturing to death a 40 year old convicted kidnapped and raped a 6 year old fascinates me. I am very serious when I say IF it ever became legal to do so, I WILL. I WILL participate in making my country safer. Mental reprogramming, brainwashing should be tools for this. The very thought of torturing this monster to death as punishment for refusal of the brainwashing excites me.

See: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...cidivism/page7 Post #135

Now he pops up claiming to be a liberal? Notice at other times he claims to be American and in Oklahoma, however in the thread about using foreign names:

I have a Chinese name that I use when I interact with people who are fluent only in Mandarin.

Somehow, I doubt the sincerity of this thread's OP.

[Mythic-RaidLead]

Now, run OP's post history and notice that he literally advocates punishing thought crimes.

Here's one of those posts: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...and-CJ-reforms

And let's not forget this gem:

See: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...cidivism/page7 Post #135

Now he pops up claiming to be a liberal? Notice at other times he claims to be American and in Oklahoma, however in the thread about using foreign names:


Somehow, I doubt the sincerity of this thread's OP.

I have no idea who you are, you keep commenting on all my threads for some weird reason.

There is literally nothing wrong with being interested in another culture regardless what the politically correct Woke social justice movement believes. Cultural appropriation is a bullshit concept. I like Chinese architecture and art and the language. This is why I sometimes use a Chinese name in online settings like in Second Life and Virtual Reality where there are people who do speak Chinese, trust me that the internet is becoming diversified, anglosphere still dominates but others including people not fluent in English are joining in. I have EVERY RIGHT to use the name I feel comfortable using for whatever reason I want. I don't care what woke sjw thinks.

However, regardless of my interests, I know where my loyalties are, with this nation, not with China. If China would switch sides, I'd gladly love that country as much as my own. I'm not a "Sinoboo", just because I have an unusually strong interest in China does not mean I am willing to betray the country that made me who I am for another over an interest in culture. It's really that simple. Hong Kong is the only aspect of the world that is rich in Chinese culture that is still democratic and embodies classical liberal values. And no, "Chinatowns" in the US doesn't really count.

I'm a classical liberal, not a progressive. Conservative values overall are classical liberal in nature. The "liberal left" are not true liberals, they regressives, they want to implement socialism in my country. Look at what they are proposing: WEALTH TAXES, literal theft. This is not classical liberalism, this is evil phychopathic policies they are proposing.

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Now, run OP's post history and notice that he literally advocates punishing thought crimes.

I support freedom of religion, pursuit of happiness, and political freedom. I do not support sicking arousal caused by looking at children or images of them and it should be criminalized. There are lines to everything. Freedom of speech has limits, you can't threaten people. Freedom of thought also has limits. Just because we advocate for freedom of thought and freedom of speech does not mean we advocate for it in the absolute sense.

[Kokolums]

We nearly had nuclear war. We were just one miscommunication away from nuclear annihilation. Probably not a good idea to put ourselves in that situation again.

That is true.

[Mythic-RaidLead]

We nearly had nuclear war. We were just one miscommunication away from nuclear annihilation. Probably not a good idea to put ourselves in that situation again.

Well, if we are going to be bold, we will have to call bluffs.

[shadowmouse]

I have no idea who you are, you keep commenting on all my threads for some weird reason.

I think the reason has been laid out fairly clearly in my replies. You are either 1) just trying to pull chains and completely insincere, or you 2) are one sick fellow who should probably be on a watch list and steered towards counseling. In your own words, you feel "excited" thinking about torturing someone.

This is why I sometimes use a Chinese name in online settings like in Second Life and Virtual Reality where there are people who do speak Chinese, trust me that the internet is becoming diversified, anglosphere still dominates but others including people not fluent in English are joining in.

Could be. Or, running with option one above, you are an exchange student racking up flame bait posts on an account a couple of months old. That would explain why so many of your replies to others who are liberal and American come across as tone deaf -- for example your desire to criminalize thoughts.

Hong Kong is the only aspect of the world that is rich in Chinese culture that is still democratic and embodies classical liberal values.

Taiwan called and said they didn't get that memo. I suspect there are substantial Chinese communities around the world such as those in Indonesia that might also disagree.

I support freedom of religion

There you go with religion again. What does religion, which you've brought up quite a few times this thread, have to do with "should we extend the Nuclear Umbrella to protect Hong Kong"?

You seem to be just parroting phrases you've taken off the Internet. Unfortunately, you've shown that when you do speak your own mind, you're a person who gets excited about torture, and that goes with a set of ideals that I'm unwilling to see spread unchallenged.

[Katie N]

No, why do you want the US to play world police?

china has proven time and time again to be a Han supremacist nation that oppresses ethnic minorities.

Wtf? xD I have never felt oppressed when I have been to China.

[Skroe]

Hong Kong has only a diplomatic/ political solution, not a military one. It is not directly analogous to Berlin during the Cold War.

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Well, if we are going to be bold, we will have to call bluffs.

Yeah... the Chinese Government aren’t bluffing when they demand respect for their territorial
integrity. And like it or not under international law, due to the British withdrawal agreement that Thatcher herself negotiated, Hong Kong is theirs. To lob off Hong Kong unilaterally when the Chinese government has not yet committed any crimes against humanity against Hong Kongers would be as illegitimate as the Russians taking Crimea.

So China is not bluffing. And the United States would not deploy nuclear weapon, which means we we were bluffing and it would undermine our credibility.

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Freedom isn't free. If we are not willing to use military action, that would embolden the communists. We need to be willing to make hard decisions.

It’s easy to say such things when it’s other people doing the paying, fighting and dying, college boy.

This is not a game. War must always be the last option. And nuclear war? Never. The only reason to have those weapons still is because other sides do. And precision munitions have made nuclear weapons obsolete for many of the types of attacks they were originally purposed for. In the next decade or so you’ll see the range advantage provided by ballistic missiles mitigated as hypersonic cruise missiles enter into service. Then nuclear weapons will be truly useless.

[shadowmouse]

It’s easy to say such things when it’s other people doing the paying, fighting and dying, college boy.

This is not a game.

Thank you.

[Skroe]

I'm a classical liberal, not a progressive. Conservative values overall are classical liberal in nature. The "liberal left" are not true liberals, they regressives, they want to implement socialism in my country. Look at what they are proposing: WEALTH TAXES, literal theft. This is not classical liberalism, this is evil phychopathic policies they are proposing.

I remember when I discovered Wikipedia.

[zealo]

Even suggesting a direct military response to events in Hong Kong so far suggests a profound unawareness of just how touchy of a subject territorial integrity is to China.

[Howel]

I guess we might as well kick the new cold war off in the most extreme way imaginable.