Where has the saved development time gone?

[Varitok]

I won’t to believe the PR for those two “features” but without playing it ourselves, I want to side with caution

I mean, let's look at the PR for those features. Did they really sell it well? If that's what they're trying to hype you up with, it's not boding well for the feature. They rarely end up better than shown, they usually end up worse or the same.

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Covenants are not rep...it is a whole new system.

I mean... They're reps, lets not kid ourselves. They are reps you level up to get specific abilities that they offer and have a campaign for that covenant. They're basically Class Halls with the added AP grind in the form of Anima but to a lesser extent.

[Sangfoudre]

Covenants are not rep...it is a whole new system.

And it looks interesting choosing one as each one has unique addition to gameplay and rewards. I think this system has a lot of potential and (become a target once more) based on the reception of the feature could be enhanced in later patches.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean... They're reps, lets not kid ourselves. They are reps you level up to get specific abilities that they offer and have a campaign for that covenant. They're basically Class Halls with the added AP grind in the form of Anima but to a lesser extent.

Reps don’t give ability’s or progress like soulbounding. The class halls were also not rep.

[FelPlague]

Okay. Sounds fun. Does that always involve engaging in informal fallacies?

If we are doing fallacy calling, im calling the fallacy fallacy, where you impose that a person has a fallacy in their argument, therefore the entire argument is useless.

[Sangfoudre]

I mean... They're reps, lets not kid ourselves. They are reps you level up to get specific abilities that they offer and have a campaign for that covenant. They're basically Class Halls with the added AP grind in the form of Anima but to a lesser extent.

reps+abilities+campaign.
At this point you could tell about every book that they are only a combination of 26 letters or any software is a combination of the same 0 and 1.
And class halls were based on garrison and so on. Not a single revolution happened in this game, but a lot of small changes and additions, sometimes giving birth three xpac later to features.

[FelPlague]

I mean... They're reps, lets not kid ourselves. They are reps you level up to get specific abilities that they offer and have a campaign for that covenant. They're basically Class Halls with the added AP grind in the form of Anima but to a lesser extent.

Reps did not give new abilities.
reps did not give us talent trees.
we have only had 2 rep siutatuions before where you were locked (shatari/aldor+oracle/frenzyheart) and they were so, so limited, they only gave minor things, and swapping really didnt mean squat, for example i know most people who did rep farming got to exalted with oracles, got their green protodrake in the way, then went to freznyheart. meanwhile covenants you will get special items, mounts, armors, etc, that if you swap you wont be able to use anymore.

as they said, no more ap grind, you can say anima is a grind, but from what we have seen so far, its "spend like 30 minutes a week then your done"

[Sangfoudre]

as they said, no more ap grind, you can say anima is a grind, but from what we have seen so far, its "spend like 30 minutes a week then your done"

We'll have another grind for sure, it's a core feature of these games.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

You have to step back if your point of view is that narrow for WoW's content.

Arena is nothing more than a good and fair 3v3 / 5v5 I did in vanilla with the pvp-willing people. Its just a better environment for that kind of pvp, but nothing new if you played in the right communitys before it was implemented.

The biggest change the game got over the years is the low amount of WHITE DAMAGE. The change forced players in most cases to practice a lot with rotations, planing cooldowns and all of this with the rise of raid/dungeon complexity. It broke the community pretty much, because the player autoattacking and following teamspeak direction was simply not enough and there was a need for ratings, achievements or simply just gear as a proof of experience.

This is my PoV as a player with 1900+ DAYS PLAYED from vanilla till bfa just playing the game casually*.
*raiding/CM's/M+ everything casually and keep myself the fuck away from progression/burn-out sub-communitys.

No, I don't need to step back. Its pretty clear that you think you're smarter than everyone else, but Arena being added was just one example. Arena gave way for things like rated BGs, a chain reaction.

I want you to literally say Vanilla and BFA are the same thing. Unless you can say that, your conclusion and the premise you have built your opinion on are just false.

[Polarthief]

Torghast is essentially a M+ dungeon, and Covenants are effectively reputations with a different label. I just cannot see where the development resources have gone.

I didn't know a randomly procedural generated dungeon is "essentially an M+ dungeon".

Regardless of that one bit, I do agree that the amount of stuff in SL looks very limited. I'm hoping there will be more closer to release in 2020, but for now, Covenants seem like the AP system (not huge systems we'll really be playing with) and Torghast looks awesome, but only to make leggos (and hopefully vanity rewards? There has to be more than just legendary forging). Outside of that, it's the usual WQ/Dungeon/Raid system. I want more systems that has lasting content.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

snip

You clearly don't know what an anecdote is, and your whole argument is just "shut up and buy the game! Don't ask questions!"

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The point is that people sometimes seem to expect new features that radically changes the core concepts of the game, but in reality Blizzard are constricted by the a certain kind fences that are erected around the core of the game. We have had grouped instanced content for PvE since the inception of the game, and we have had grouped arena based PvP since the inception of the game. Facelifts, numbers changes etc. have been made and have been successful sometimes and unsuccessful sometimes. But no radical changes have ever been made. Garrisons and mission tables is probably the only exception, and these features were met with massive backlash.

Are you saying current is the same game as Vanilla?

[FelPlague]

We'll have another grind for sure, it's a core feature of these games.

i mean they said no more grind, they showed up no more grind, but k.

[Caprias]

I actually hope that instead of forcing out new "bomb" features they focus on the game as of right now and try for things that might be sticking like m+.

Thorgast might be a new feature that, if received well, will also be in the expansion after SL.

WoW is more than less in it's lifespans evening, it is to be expected that they don't put in the resources like they did in wotlk/cata/mop, focusing the dev. power into features that can be reused the next expansion like m+ could be just the right thing.

Imo warfronts and islands where an experiment like that (that flopped lol).

I just don't think they should redesign the formula every 2 expansions, just improve and fix what is there, that alone is a ton.

[Varitok]

Reps don’t give ability’s or progress like soulbounding. The class halls were also not rep.

You rep them up to get there, it's a different type of rep reward but the same structure to it. They just borrow piecemeal from other features they've released to fluff it up and make it take on another appearance. It's a rep with an ability, it's basically like 4 different Vindicaars that you rep to get abilities, no different from reping to get gear.

I am not against having them, it could be fun but how many times do they have to put lipstick on a pig before people see that it's still a pig?

[CrawlFromThePit]

Torghast is essentially a M+ dungeon, and Covenants are effectively reputations with a different label. I just cannot see where the development resources have gone.

Why are you talking about things you don't know?

[Powerogue]

Completely overhauling the leveling structure probably takes some work, that's a big one.

And a lot of those gimmicks brought up were terrible. If we don't have gimmicks that don't add anything good to the game (garrison, warfronts(except the armor from those is rad), island expeditions) they can focus on important stuff.

[FelPlague]

Are you saying current is the same game as Vanilla?

no, what they are saying is no one expansion changed the entire game into something different.
just like one day you did not change from a kid into an adult
there was minor changes, over and over and over and over and over, every so often, until suddenly 15 years later the game was different.


tbc added flying, removed faction specific classes, added new races, added new level/profession cap, made almost all specs playable, new professsions, gems, dailies, removed 40 mans raids, added badge gear, more services to the store

wotlk added vehicles, new class, hero classes, glyphs, all specs useful, raid weeklies, easier leveling, lfg, raid difficulties, store mounts, legendaries that require a long quest chain

cata added, tmog, flying in old world, raidfinder

mop added new talent system, legendaries for all


and i could go on but i guess my point was made.
also its funny, now that i think about it, the game has changed less over the last expansions since cata, tbc, and wotlk is when the MOST new types of things were added. tbc was the first to add new professons, new ones have added professions once in awhile, tbc was the first to add new races, wotlk first to add new classes.

[Caprias]

Completely overhauling the leveling structure probably takes some work, that's a big one.

And a lot of those gimmicks brought up were terrible. If we don't have gimmicks that don't add anything good to the game (garrison, warfronts(except the armor from those is rad), island expeditions) they can focus on important stuff.

Yeah but this is the kind of stuff where they have to try and experiment if it sticks with the playerbase or doesn't i guess.

[FelPlague]

Torghast is essentially a M+ dungeon, and Covenants are effectively reputations with a different label. I just cannot see where the development resources have gone.

torghast is infinite with special talents you earn like infinite fire elemental. so no, no it is not.
covenenants are like eps, but also not, because no reps have bween "choose one of X" that then gives so many unique rewards, the 2 times we have had this before it was just for choice of different stats, and rewards that you kept even if you swapped.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You rep them up to get there, it's a different type of rep reward but the same structure to it. They just borrow piecemeal from other features they've released to fluff it up and make it take on another appearance. It's a rep with an ability, it's basically like 4 different Vindicaars that you rep to get abilities, no different from reping to get gear.

I am not against having them, it could be fun but how many times do they have to put lipstick on a pig before people see that it's still a pig?

This is like saying leveling is a rep because you fill a bar the covenants work in a way that no other rep has.

[Nerovar]

If we are doing fallacy calling, im calling the fallacy fallacy, where you impose that a person has a fallacy in their argument, therefore the entire argument is useless.

Well, someone argued that WoW never had any radical changes. I replied saying that Legion had pretty radical changes that were completely game-changing for a lot of people and later elaborated on that point. He then moved the goalposts saying that these couldn't be radical changes because Legion is roughly the same game as classic or any MMORPG with PvE, PvP, instanced content, spell rotation, quests, gear etc. which basically translates to "it can't be a radical change unless it's suddenly not an MMORPG anymore". Now, calling out that fallacy would be a fallacy if I disregarded his other rational arguments because of it... but I didn't do that because that literally was his sole point.