View Poll Results: Where do you stand?

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  • I don't support Andrew Yang's UBI

    33 34.74%
  • I support Andrew Yang's UBI

    62 65.26%
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  1. #361
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    I'm voting for Yang for my 1k a month for sure!

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They already contribute via paying taxes (there's more than income tax) and through acting as a consumer.

    The idea that they're not contributing to society is a deliberate lie, and it's one made with malicious intent, to justify policies explicitly designed to increase human suffering.
    Lol. Buying shit for your own sustainment and fulfillment is apparently contributing more than enough to society for them to be willing to carry your ass! You read it here first. Giving people the PRIVILEGE of supporting your ass gives them purpose. They should be so lucky!

    So you'll forgive me if I don't take that argument seriously. Because it shouldn't be, by any rational human being.
    Rational human beings are aware that human life innately is meaningless and has no inherent value. It simply exists. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Or the new college graduate who's taking a job as a barista because there aren't any jobs in their field of specialization right now, even though it's a pay cut of about 70% of what they should be earning, because the student loan people need to get paid.
    "No jobs right" is a nice way of saying "picked the wrong degree","not as appealing as other candidates for some reason", or "inflexible and unwilling to move."

    The idea that jobs are always people's source of self-worth and dignity is, frankly, bullshit. You're cherry-picking the few for whom that's true and pretending that applies to everyone, and it flatly doesn't.
    Who cares about self worth? We're talking about worth to society.

    Bragging about how you support enslaving people against their will definitely means that morality has a lot to do with your position. Specifically, the lack of any moral code whatsoever.
    You need to learn the difference between personal morals and points of governance and expectations for other people. Just because I call myself christian doesn't mean I'm gonna try to make laws so that everyone has to be. Just because I hate greedy billionaires doesn't mean I'm going to try to legislate out greed from humanity. Just because I wouldn't get an abortion on a kid just because it has downs doesn't mean I'm gonna try to make it so others can't do that.

    My morals are irrelevant to governance because I'm not so fucking sanctimonious that I presume everyone needs to follow my idea of "perfect."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    So like, infrastructure and utilities of all kinds, the rule of law, political franchise, and the same basic income schema as everyone else (the U in UBI is Universal after all) is nothing?
    But you're ignoring the part where these people wouldn't contribute nearly as much as they get. That's the point. Money is a valuation of an individual's worth to the society, and society is made up of the free wills of everyone combined, taking into account their own worth versus everyone elses, their own desires and power versus everyone elses, etc.

    Why do you suddenly get to decide that some fuck baby is now my problem? Because it was born? That's easy. It's nothing special in and of itself. "The miracle of life" is a lie. It's not a miracle, and it's not special. Ergo, it is deserving of nothing on it's own. Or would you pay $12 for a pencil? Piece of tape? Humans are a resource. A tool for the society they choose to participate in, at least as far as society is concerned. They're cell in the human body. Fat cells have their place, but too many makes an unfit body that will die early.

    You get the same from taxes as everyone else. What you get from working is the currency to buy luxuries which those who don't work in this theoretical scenario don't get.
    People don't all derive the same benefit from taxes, though. POTENTIAL benefit does not equal derived or realized benefit. They should be free to choose how much something does or does not matter to them.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The idea that jobs are always people's source of self-worth and dignity is, frankly, bullshit. You're cherry-picking the few for whom that's true and pretending that applies to everyone, and it flatly doesn't.
    Yup. I love my work but hate my job. I'd do it for free if I didn't have to worry about income.

  4. #364
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    I usually think you a rational poster, but you didn't think this one through.
    You're going to have to dig a bit deeper.

    Because hell, the concept I'm talking about is core to the entire framework of capitalist theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Rational human beings are aware that human life innately is meaningless and has no inherent value. It simply exists. Nothing more, nothing less.
    If that were true, then murdering someone wouldn't have any consequences, because nothing of value was lost.

    It clearly isn't true. Why make up horseshit like this?

    My morals are irrelevant to governance because I'm not so fucking sanctimonious that I presume everyone needs to follow my idea of "perfect."
    I was pointing out how your lack of an apparent moral code led you to recommend abusive policies that encourage and require human suffering.

    Your lack of morals is absolutely at the core of all that. Amoral policy-making is not a positive.

  5. #365
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Morality has nothing to do with it. That dignified living comes from somewhere and someone. Personally, I'm not willing to work without getting something in return, and that also means I'm not willing to provide for someone who isn't willing to attempt to provide something themselves. I'd sooner kick them out of my society. There is no room for free-loaders.
    Then why don't you kick out the rich since they do nothing but suck up money? Most rich people don't work and let their money make them more money. There are so many scammers today that if feels like 50% of people working are in some way trying to rip off people. The truth is anyone who's made over a billion dollars has ripped off someone as some point, because honest work doesn't make that kind of money.

    I'm not putting in anything unless I'm getting something in return. Free loaders are getting something from me without giving anything in return. Ergo, I decline to participate.
    To be honest, your compliance isn't a factor. We vote, someone wins, you get taxed and that money gets redistributed based on how the voters feel they should. Right now a lot of tax payer money is going into rich peoples pockets via subsidies. Nearly all big corporations get subsidies and that's somehow fine. Also, the banks received 3 Trillion dollars because they don fucked up. That's a lot of free money for a bunch of free loaders who basically crash our economy every 10 years or so.

    What you get in return is no Bell Riots, cause it's looking a lot like that's going to happen lately. The homeless situation is so bad that NY is shipping their homeless like trash that even China won't take. UBI is the way to solve these problems with trickle up economics because so far bailing out the rich has not been working, like at all. The burden of the 2008 recession was put onto the poor while the rich pumped up their stocks to unbelievable levels, thanks to some tax payer money. Seriously, some businesses pay nothing in taxes and got tax returns that they used as stock buy back.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Morality has nothing to do with it. That dignified living comes from somewhere and someone. Personally, I'm not willing to work without getting something in return, and that also means I'm not willing to provide for someone who isn't willing to attempt to provide something themselves. I'd sooner kick them out of my society. There is no room for free-loaders.
    Then why don't you kick out the rich since they do nothing but suck up money? Most rich people don't work and let their money make them more money. There are so many scammers today that if feels like 50% of people working are in some way trying to rip off people. The truth is anyone who's made over a billion dollars has ripped off someone as some point, because honest work doesn't make that kind of money.

    I'm not putting in anything unless I'm getting something in return. Free loaders are getting something from me without giving anything in return. Ergo, I decline to participate.
    To be honest, your compliance isn't a factor. We vote, someone wins, you get taxed and that money gets redistributed based on how the voters feel they should. Right now a lot of tax payer money is going into rich peoples pockets via subsidies. Nearly all big corporations get subsidies and that's somehow fine. Also, the banks received 3 Trillion dollars because they don fucked up. That's a lot of free money for a bunch of free loaders who basically crash our economy every 10 years or so.

    What you get in return is no Bell Riots, cause it's looking a lot like that's going to happen lately. The homeless situation is so bad that NY is shipping their homeless like trash that even China won't take. UBI is the way to solve these problems with trickle up economics because so far bailing out the rich has not been working, like at all. The burden of the 2008 recession was put onto the poor while the rich pumped up their stocks to unbelievable levels, thanks to some tax payer money. Seriously, some businesses pay nothing in taxes and got tax returns that they used as stock buy back.


  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're going to have to dig a bit deeper.

    Because hell, the concept I'm talking about is core to the entire framework of capitalist theory.
    The idea that Joe using money earned through other people's taxes is considered JOE contributing is laughable.

    Yes, taxes happen a thousand times, but to give Joe credit for his contribution? He did nothing but exist.

  7. #367
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Yup. I love my work but hate my job. I'd do it for free if I didn't have to worry about income.
    I'd open up a shop that restores old cars or make a business that builds and repairs gaming PCs, but I don't have the money for that. A UBI would go a long way into making that happen. Especially if everyone got $12k a year, that means that people have spending money, which would only promote my business idea even further. Animators on YouTube could spend more time animating instead of working at terrible jobs that barely pay minimum wage. Or more people would spend more time contributing to open source projects like Linux instead of working at Starbucks.

    So much potential could come from UBI. I mean yea, lots of people would sit on their asses all day and do nothing, but I find that acceptable. Maybe they'd go back to school or start a family. Seriously, not enough people fucking and making babies today, as our birth rate in 1st world countries are scary low. People can move out of high rent and expensive areas to live and move to cheaper places, thus reducing the cost of rent. So much good can come from this.

  8. #368
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    The idea that Joe using money earned through other people's taxes is considered JOE contributing is laughable.

    Yes, taxes happen a thousand times, but to give Joe credit for his contribution? He did nothing but exist.
    You might think it's "laughable", but it's entirely true.

    The hypothetical UBI stipend Joe gets from the government is just as much "Joe's money" as a hypothetical paycheck from a job would be. That it was given to Joe by another entity is just you noticing that economies are transactional, which really shouldn't be a revelation.

    Your entire position is based on a double standard, and thus doesn't hold merit.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You might think it's "laughable", but it's entirely true.

    The hypothetical UBI stipend Joe gets from the government is just as much "Joe's money" as a hypothetical paycheck from a job would be. That it was given to Joe by another entity is just you noticing that economies are transactional, which really shouldn't be a revelation.

    Your entire position is based on a double standard, and thus doesn't hold merit.
    We should all contribute just as Joe does and refuse to work. You would be so proud and society would flourish.

    If anything, the government is contributing to society through Joe as a vessel.
    Last edited by Jonnusthegreat; 2019-12-14 at 03:46 AM.

  10. #370
    Consumer spending by Joe Average has always fueled economies into power houses.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    But you're ignoring the part where these people wouldn't contribute nearly as much as they get. That's the point. Money is a valuation of an individual's worth to the society, and society is made up of the free wills of everyone combined, taking into account their own worth versus everyone elses, their own desires and power versus everyone elses, etc.

    Why do you suddenly get to decide that some fuck baby is now my problem? Because it was born? That's easy. It's nothing special in and of itself. "The miracle of life" is a lie. It's not a miracle, and it's not special. Ergo, it is deserving of nothing on it's own. Or would you pay $12 for a pencil? Piece of tape? Humans are a resource. A tool for the society they choose to participate in, at least as far as society is concerned. They're cell in the human body. Fat cells have their place, but too many makes an unfit body that will die early.


    People don't all derive the same benefit from taxes, though. POTENTIAL benefit does not equal derived or realized benefit. They should be free to choose how much something does or does not matter to them.
    With respect to proportional contributions: I am not ignoring it. In fact I'm seeking to correct it. You see the rich in our current society, extract far more value from our public systems than the poor or the working class, but they contribute to society vastly less. Their business under a relentless drive for profit deplete our natural resources at unsustainable rates, they benefit more from public services and infrastructures because they own properties, which get protected by law enforcement, they own businesses whose legal operating infrastructure is paid for by public money, the use the courts which are publicly funded far far more than the working class. This is to exclude specific egregious industries whose owners benefit immensely from public resources, such as media companies who broadcast over publicly licensed airwaves and frequency bands, the military industrial complex whose highly lucrative existence is leeched from tax dollars. The rich take more, and contribute less, on a scale that dwarfs any amount of luxurious living by non-working poor you could possibly dream up. A UBI, calibrated to give a dignified comfortable but spartan existence to members of society who don't earn a paycheck, could only serve to reduce disparities in contribution to society, without even beginning to talk about the upward pressure the ability to opt out of working would place on wages.

    With respect to some fuck baby being your problem: You just hate the poor. It's okay, I hate the rich. Why should some warmonger jackoff get to make millions off my tax dollars building the next generation of assault weapon to put in the hands of the sons of my neighbors so his jackoff politician friend whose also paid on my dime can send those kids across the world to kill other poor people so a third rich jackoff can harvest foreign oil for profit. Who decided that was my problem?

    With respect to benefit derived from taxes: Hey you're right! As outlined before the rich derive vastly more benefit from taxes than the rest of us, and proportionately they do not pay nearly a fair share. So in the name of society being more equal, lets make them contribute more, and then use that contribute to support the poor and down trodden more. Doesn't that sound like the right thing to do?

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    I'd open up a shop that restores old cars or make a business that builds and repairs gaming PCs, but I don't have the money for that. A UBI would go a long way into making that happen. Especially if everyone got $12k a year, that means that people have spending money, which would only promote my business idea even further. Animators on YouTube could spend more time animating instead of working at terrible jobs that barely pay minimum wage. Or more people would spend more time contributing to open source projects like Linux instead of working at Starbucks.

    So much potential could come from UBI. I mean yea, lots of people would sit on their asses all day and do nothing, but I find that acceptable. Maybe they'd go back to school or start a family. Seriously, not enough people fucking and making babies today, as our birth rate in 1st world countries are scary low. People can move out of high rent and expensive areas to live and move to cheaper places, thus reducing the cost of rent. So much good can come from this.
    I know from the private equity firms that work in land assets would eat this apart is my biggest complaint with a UBI. You would have to do a wide range of movement for people to places like Wyoming, North/South Dakota etc. But you would also have to do this before again those private equity firms bought it all up with the loans they can leverage. It would take a MASSIVE undertaking to just have that sort of ruleset applied. I know you understand that large scale ownership groups would just get together or merge etc for market share dominance. At this point i am starting to think it would require another world war to reset the balance of power.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They already contribute via paying taxes (there's more than income tax) and through acting as a consumer.

    The idea that they're not contributing to society is a deliberate lie, and it's one made with malicious intent, to justify policies explicitly designed to increase human suffering.

    So you'll forgive me if I don't take that argument seriously. Because it shouldn't be, by any rational human being.



    I didn't say working a job couldn't provide you with self-worth and dignity.

    But ask yourself if the same "self worth and dignity" is true of the young woman who's stripping to support herself and her young daughter, because she can make more money that way than otherwise.

    Ask yourself if it applies to the high school graduate working the night shift at the 7-11 so he can afford college.

    Or the new college graduate who's taking a job as a barista because there aren't any jobs in their field of specialization right now, even though it's a pay cut of about 70% of what they should be earning, because the student loan people need to get paid.

    The idea that jobs are always people's source of self-worth and dignity is, frankly, bullshit. You're cherry-picking the few for whom that's true and pretending that applies to everyone, and it flatly doesn't.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Bragging about how you support enslaving people against their will definitely means that morality has a lot to do with your position. Specifically, the lack of any moral code whatsoever.
    Oh no i get and understand that problem but i am in the camp of free higher education and trade unions regardless of age. I love working and i figure the majority of people love working, i get to travel the world and work with people to build a better future for their heirs.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And here's the core of the issue;

    So what if she is?

    There aren't enough jobs for everyone who wants one, let alone everyone who can work.
    The economy only survives if consumers have money to use on consumption.
    Pushing more people into hardship and thus into the labor force to attempt to escape hardship doesn't create any jobs, it just makes everything more difficult for everyone who's unemployed.
    Where? There certainly is in the US.

  14. #374
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    We should all contribute just as Joe does and refuse to work. You would be so proud and society would flourish.

    If anything, the government is contributing to society through Joe as a vessel.
    I know straw men are easier to hit than someone else's actual argument, but that doesn't make them a valid counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Where? There certainly is in the US.
    When did the U6 unemployment measure hit 0%?

    https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

    Oh, wait, it's still up around 6.5%. Not enough jobs for everyone who wants a job to be fully employed, then, despite your claim otherwise.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I know straw men are easier to hit than someone else's actual argument, but that doesn't make them a valid counter.
    Neither does deflection.

  16. #376
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Neither does deflection.
    I'm not "deflecting", at all.

    You can address my points, and I'll respond. If you're going to make up straw men, I'm just going to point out you're doing so; I'm not going to waste my time tilting at your straw men for you.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Where? There certainly is in the US.
    Great, then why are all the national socialists opposing immigration?

    Awkward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  18. #378
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    We should all contribute just as Joe does and refuse to work. You would be so proud and society would flourish.

    If anything, the government is contributing to society through Joe as a vessel.
    Do y'all just not understand the concept of a consumer economy being based on consumption or what?

    Also, the "what if everyone stopped working" argument is a pretty weak one considering exactly none of the available evidence suggests people are inherently lazy.
    = Masc4Mask =

  19. #379
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i mean, the "yes." was mostly a meme. i'd have used the actual meme, but sticks are firmly in anuses about memes here.

    the main reason i don't want to work is because i kinda can't. online's the only place i can really speak with any clarity, and functioning at any normal level in public is pretty much entirely out of the question. idk what's wrong with me, but i'd most likely actually qualify for wellfare if i could go to get checked out.

    i want UBI because i'm too scared to go get check out for it though. there's several reasons i don't want to have to talk to a doctor for it, but the main is what it'd cause in my home life. someone i live with wouldn't exactly be understanding of my problem, and i can't live on my own. it's self-defeating.
    It's nice that you explain it but there should be no reason for you to do so. I mean, this is your private life and whatever reason you have to want UBI is of no one's business, even if you simply don't want to work.

    We're a society, and even the ones not working are contributing to it, people have to get this into their stupid brains.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    If you want society to give you something, you better be willing or able to give something to society. Simply existing isn't enough.
    Simply existing is giving something to society though. All the jobs associated with a UBI for example. Or the simple fact that you existing means you need stuff which in turn means others have work.

    Of course, if everyone was like "I don't want to work" then it will collapse, but considering that a UBI is for everyone, the wage on top of it is like a bonus month by month and people will continue to want to have luxury items.

    Another positive of UBI is it is giving people more of a choice in life and a better position when negotiating wages which is really needed in countries like the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm not "deflecting", at all.

    You can address my points, and I'll respond. If you're going to make up straw men, I'm just going to point out you're doing so; I'm not going to waste my time tilting at your straw men for you.
    If you can address mine, I'll respond, too. We seem to have different definitions of the word "contribute," however, so any discussion will fall flat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Do y'all just not understand the concept of a consumer economy being based on consumption or what?

    Also, the "what if everyone stopped working" argument is a pretty weak one considering exactly none of the available evidence suggests people are inherently lazy.
    That's not my argument. I was simply stating I hope I can contribute as much as the person that refuses to work, as he's been put on a pedestal.

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