Classic AV is the biggest disappointment

[Astfina]

You simply dont get it, you dont even know the game you are playing.

You are literally playing basketball and you are complaining people are using their hands because you want to use your feet for your "fun".

Its the same as me going online in a FPS game and complaining people are using guns in CoD and Battlefield instead of axes and spears because i find medieval more fun.

I dont care what YOU want to do in the game.

WoW is all about raiding, secondly its (was) to use that gear from raiding to kill others.

This is the design of MMOs from the 2000s, Gear >All, spend time and force things, and you are in the 0.1-1% that dominates the rest.

This was true in 2005 to 2010, after that they started adding and switching it so raiders wont be 1 shotting everyone else anymore, as often.

WoW Classic, is based on the old 2000s design.

YOU RUSH AND FARM THE GEAR TO DOMINATE OTHERS (through raiding mostly), THATS LITERALLY THE GAME.

If you arent doing that, sorry to inform you that you are just fodder for the 1% to have fun cleaving down, as it was in 2005.

The only actual difference back then was because people were slow, terrible and bad, with bad connections and PCs, you had multiple levels of players so it balanced out, the 1%, destroyed the 99%, the 5% of the 99% destroyed the other 94%, and so on, until you had everyone happy, destroying someone else.

Now you have either people that farmed, or people that cant play as much, you no longer have 10 different pools of players, you have 2, maybe 3.

You are part of the problem not the soloution. AV used to last hours you needed to upgrade the guards kill all the towers lords etc. If 40 people ran into the boss room with everything up you ALL died.

Please go back to retail and take all the loot grabbing toxic people with you.

People did things because they wanted to and it was enjoyable NOT just for loot. That came later and has slowly destroyed the game.

People selling runs, reserving gear and all that other garbage is not what an MMO is about and the game will be dead soon. The same as Warhammer went once people adopted your attitude.

As for people thinking they can get warlord...haha I was rank 11 and had to pvp 7/8 hours a day to maintain that rank god forbid you got a DK or you would lose 2 ranks.

Have fun watching all the whiners and babies start crying when they need to put more than 2 weeks effort in to get something..

[potis]

You are part of the problem not the soloution. AV used to last hours you needed to upgrade the guards kill all the towers lords etc. If 40 people ran into the boss room with everything up you ALL died.

Please go back to retail and take all the loot grabbing toxic people with you.

People did things because they wanted to and it was enjoyable NOT just for loot. That came later and has slowly destroyed the game.

People selling runs, reserving gear and all that other garbage is not what an MMO is about and the game will be dead soon. The same as Warhammer went once people adopted your attitude.

As for people thinking they can get warlord...haha I was rank 11 and had to pvp 7/8 hours a day to maintain that rank god forbid you got a DK or you would lose 2 ranks.

Have fun watching all the whiners and babies start crying when they need to put more than 2 weeks effort in to get something..

"Used to last".

I already won the argument there.

Stop bunching your shit experiences with everyone, not everyone plays at the same level.

Also, you were just shit at the game,its called coordination versus no-coordination, obviously i aint talking first month AV and the famous "3 day AV" bullshit, we all joined that pointless mess, a couple of months or three after when the dust settled and the rewards were revealed also to the masses.

My fastest 1.5-1.8 AV was 23mins, it took me 5 days after people started listening which would make it a total of 6.5 days, not 5 played days to get TUF, but something like 20-30 played hours, the same way it took people today a couple of days of rushing, my average AV was 40m, after not being listened to the first few hours and having to do 2-5h AVs and get nowhere, after waiting 1-2h in queue, so i literally did 2 AVs before people started obeying and easy mode wins started.

It also helps when the first Rank 14s of the server are your party every other AV, because you were in their premade to get them to Rank 14, 2 months earlier because i unsubbed to study for semester uni exams, and had to quit the game and i remained Rank 10 and 90%.

Obviously you had to be at least half-relevant to your server to get the bunch to listen to you, sorry you were not.

[Zephire]

Doesn't it have a bit to do with the general mindset and the maturity of the playerbase? We're more goal oriented and wanting to be as efficient as possible. Both Horde and Alliance side, which leads to gameplay that avoids Everything that isn't mandatory (if the reward isn't Worth it).

Pretty sure there were a lot more players doing what I did in vanilla AV, just brawling, trying to get kills, summoning elementals, defending etcetera. We had long AV's because we, the players, didn't all have the same goal.

The Classic version of AV might be really bad but I think the above also contributes a lot.

[Monster Hunter]

You simply dont get it, you dont even know the game you are playing.

You are literally playing basketball and you are complaining people are using their hands because you want to use your feet for your "fun".

Its the same as me going online in a FPS game and complaining people are using guns in CoD and Battlefield instead of axes and spears because i find medieval more fun.

I dont care what YOU want to do in the game.

WoW is all about raiding, secondly its (was) to use that gear from raiding to kill others.

This is the design of MMOs from the 2000s, Gear >All, spend time and force things, and you are in the 0.1-1% that dominates the rest.

This was true in 2005 to 2010, after that they started adding and switching it so raiders wont be 1 shotting everyone else anymore, as often.

WoW Classic, is based on the old 2000s design.

YOU RUSH AND FARM THE GEAR TO DOMINATE OTHERS (through raiding mostly), THATS LITERALLY THE GAME.

If you arent doing that, sorry to inform you that you are just fodder for the 1% to have fun cleaving down, as it was in 2005.

The only actual difference back then was because people were slow, terrible and bad, with bad connections and PCs, you had multiple levels of players so it balanced out, the 1%, destroyed the 99%, the 5% of the 99% destroyed the other 94%, and so on, until you had everyone happy, destroying someone else.

Now you have either people that farmed, or people that cant play as much, you no longer have 10 different pools of players, you have 2, maybe 3.

That would be right if your analogy wasn't the wrong way round.

I'm the one that wants pvp in pvp, you guys are the ones who want to play the game in a way it isn't intended and the complain when people call it out.

Do you think it was intended in 1.12 for AV to take less than 5 mins? If it was then why did they spend so many patches after slowing it down again.

Please... Darling if any one dosnt know the game there playing its you right now.

- - - Updated - - -

And yet it was more complete than any previous edition of WoW before 1.12. What people forget is Vanilla WoW was an over year long Beta for WoW. People call BFA Beta for Azeroth but Vanilla was the True beta they launch with many incomplete classes.

Complete in other aspects yea.

But the changes to AV and the state it was left in happend late and didn't get fixed till 2.4, vanilla was as you say in alot of respects wow beta but there's things the broke during the course that didn't get fixed till tbc or in some cases wrath.

- - - Updated - - -

And yet it was more complete than any previous edition of WoW before 1.12. What people forget is Vanilla WoW was an over year long Beta for WoW. People call BFA Beta for Azeroth but Vanilla was the True beta they launch with many incomplete classes.

Complete in other aspects yea.

But the changes to AV and the state it was left in happend late and didn't get fixed till 2.4, vanilla was as you say in alot of respects wow beta but there's things the broke during the course that didn't get fixed till tbc or in some cases wrath.

- - - Updated - - -

So they might like pvp.

And that's how you kill a game, chasing an audience that's not interested whilst loosing your current engaged audience. Is classic not a testiment to that very lesson?

If some one dosnt like the very act of engaging in combat with another player, then they arnt worth casting for in pvp, they have plenty of pve content, if they want something that's pvp exclusive it's they who need to bow to the majority to get it not the other way around.

[potis]

That would be right if your analogy wasn't the wrong way round.

I'm the one that wants pvp in pvp, you guys are the ones who want to play the game in a way it isn't intended and the complain when people call it out.

Do you think it was intended in 1.12 for AV to take less than 5 mins? If it was then why did they spend so many patches after slowing it down again.

Cause as everything else it was changed to fit the end of the expansion you git, for everyone to get freebie honor gear before TBC hit.

The same way everything has been happening for the last 15 years in this game.

But yeah, you want to PvP, in the raiding simulator game, you really know what you are playing, average LFR hero player.

[crusadernero]

Yes AV is quite nice as a PvE feature. Quick matches that last 10-15 minutes, kill some pve mobs.

I bet the same people that cried over Island E and stuff like that you did over and over, are the same people playing 10+ hours now in classic doing a shit PVE bg.

Its also funny to observe how well known streamers/youtubers that talked up classic and all the good things about it, is actually playing the game with retail mindset that they talked down all the time. Its all about being as effective as possible, clear content quickly as possible with the most optimal setup.

Its also funny that now, after bgs launched, the world is quite dead. Once again people are back in citys and queue for instanced content. Just like classic fanboys screamed were bad in retail.


BWT I play classic when I can, but I dont have the time to play alot anymore. So I dont dislike classic, I like it still. But its interesting to see how different the gameplay pans out this time around compared to 15 years ago. Theres many, many reasons for that, but interesting to watch nontheless.

People will quickly get bored of AV. WSG might keep pvp people interested, if they are actually interested in pvp and not just optimal honor grind.

Luckily its soon xmas holiday and after that its BWL. A raid that probably will get steamrolled lol

[Gavll]

This was inevitable. The amount of prominent (YouTube, Twitch etc) min-maxers are influencing the sheep to just zerg.

I think most of the community wanted 1.8 AV, yet Blizzard didn't listen. Then they made old-school AV for retail. What a slap in the face.

[Buliwyf the Omen]

Shocker.

The experience you had 15 years ago wont be the same today as it was back then.

But hey boys, you wanted classic, you got it.

[Orby]

they are because for past 10 years they heared legends and myths about AVs going for 24 hours + and now they reliase it was nothing but lies.

Not really it was true, games did last 24 hours, but take into a fact people were shit then, had shitty compluters and didn;t know the best way to do things.

Let's also not forget that even Korracks revenge the original AV that I remember from vanilla can be now be beat faster too as seen in retail. So even if they implemented the older AV into Classic it will make no difference either.

People have just gotten better at the game.

I been saying this since day one, people never wanted Classic WoW, they wanted the feeling of playing Classic WoW from a noob standpoint again which was always going to never happen, those first time experiences that made the world feel fresh and new were never going to come back. I went into WoW Classic knowing this. Most people didn't and thats on them.

[kranur]

You are part of the problem not the soloution. AV used to last hours you needed to upgrade the guards kill all the towers lords etc. If 40 people ran into the boss room with everything up you ALL died.

Please go back to retail and take all the loot grabbing toxic people with you.

People did things because they wanted to and it was enjoyable NOT just for loot. That came later and has slowly destroyed the game.

People selling runs, reserving gear and all that other garbage is not what an MMO is about and the game will be dead soon. The same as Warhammer went once people adopted your attitude.

As for people thinking they can get warlord...haha I was rank 11 and had to pvp 7/8 hours a day to maintain that rank god forbid you got a DK or you would lose 2 ranks.

Have fun watching all the whiners and babies start crying when they need to put more than 2 weeks effort in to get something..

You do realize that minus the upgrades, the AV description is how it works on retail right?

How long are you gonna keep lying to yourself that in vanilla everything people did was solely "for fun".

[Monster Hunter]

Cause as everything else it was changed to fit the end of the expansion you git, for everyone to get freebie honor gear before TBC hit.

The same way everything has been happening for the last 15 years in this game.

But yeah, you want to PvP, in the raiding simulator game, you really know what you are playing, average LFR hero player.

The gear from AV was dog shit at the point. You really think it was intentional to break AV so people could get the crappy epics from there?

Jesus if that was the case it wouldn't have taken so many patch iterations to fix it, they would have just reverted the change. Also the catch up was the dark Portal event.

Also lol lfr hero.... Really I've been playing this game for 14 years, I have more highest difficulty raid clears than you can likly dream of son, pipe down about things that happend befor you hit puberty k.

[potis]

The gear from AV was dog shit at the point. You really think it was intentional to break AV so people could get the crappy epics from there?

Jesus if that was the case it wouldn't have taken so many patch iterations to fix it, they would have just reverted the change. Also the catch up was the dark Portal event.

Also lol lfr hero.... Really I've been playing this game for 14 years, I have more highest difficulty raid clears than you can likly dream of son, pipe down about things that happend befor you hit puberty k.

Relax LFR hero, you dont even know Rank 14 honor gear was purchasable with honor the last 2 months of WoW Vanilla, which is the AV you are playing, pre-TBC catch up mechanics.

As i said before, you dont know the game you are playing, and even the fact you even log on Classic, and actually complain about obvious shit, shows me your level of player.

[Ange]

People selling runs, reserving gear and all that other garbage is not what an MMO is about and the game will be dead soon.

People reserved gear in the first VANILLA months, just as they do in classic. Lots of guilds had core members with MMO experience and they used every social advantage there was to get what they wanted. You would call that toxic today, it was what it was in VANILLA.

If you dont remember or never experienced it, you either never played VANILLA, were to young to get into any social group or you played as ultra casual and quit while/after leveling your first toon.

Gamers dont change that much and we are talking about a specific genre (MMO, characterprogression) that attracts a very specific pool of players.

The only hard part in any MMO is to learn what you want to do to have fun and how you get to the right players to have fun with. Some players are lucky and get into the right communitys, some have a hard time and have to endure some negative experiences and some will quit in this process.

Starting with friends in any MMO is a huge benefit and getting into communitys with social people is a very good start for your journey.

Its as simple as that.

[Monster Hunter]

Relax LFR hero, you dont even know Rank 14 honor gear was purchasable with honor the last 2 months of WoW Vanilla, which is the AV you are playing, pre-TBC catch up mechanics.

As i said before, you dont know the game you are playing, and even the fact you even log on Classic, and actually complain about obvious shit, shows me your level of player.

I don't play classic. I played vanilla. That fact you have jumped to ad hominim shows I have won the argument, so there's nothing left to say tbh. You don't know what your talking about which is why your nolonger trying to talk about it.

[potis]

I don't play classic. I played vanilla. That fact you have jumped to ad hominim shows I have won the argument, so there's nothing left to say tbh. You don't know what your talking about which is why your nolonger trying to talk about it.

You played Vanilla yes, but somehow you missed the most important part of Vanilla, aka the last 2 months and the free honor gear.

Its fine, game is hard, play the auto attack simulator at middle of AV and pretend you know what you are talking about, in 2019.

[Monster Hunter]

You played Vanilla yes, but somehow you missed the most important part of Vanilla, aka the last 2 months and the free honor gear.

Its fine, game is hard, play the auto attack simulator at middle of AV and pretend you know what you are talking about, in 2019.

Why the hell would I want the free honour gear when I was in t2.5 and dieing horribly on failed attempts to do anything useful in nax?

It was shitty gear even compared to BWL gear. That was kind of one of the biggest gripes at the end of vanilla, that the pvp gear was gash compared to raid gear.

Not that it even matters because the AV changes wernt to facilitate catch up, it was a mistake they made in 1.8 way befor end of vanilla (10th Oct 2005 for reference) based on people wanting AV not to take all weekend. But in doing that they fucked up and made it last 3-4 mins and totally negated all the pvp, so they took some time and in 2.4 they fixed it.

Edit:I gather by the silence the AV changes being October 2005 kinda blew your it was for free catch up gear for tbc argument up.

[Kralljin]

I blame the e-sports mentality and content creators for this min/max OCD.

Thinking this is somehow the fault of the "e-sport" or "retail" mentality is wrong.

This is not some sort of "the community found a gamebreaking loophole and now exploits it" situation, that's how AV was played post 1.12, meaning that was also the Meta since mid 2006.
The issue here is that AV simply operates within this gray area, 1.12 AV is technically still Vanilla, but in terms of Meta / Gameplay barely resembled the design philosophy of Vanilla anymore despite being a part of Vanilla.

1.12 is simply the worst version of AV, even the changes made to AV in TBC were basically made to limit these massive issues associated with 1.12 AV.

It attempted to put an emphasis onto towers and prevent this extreme version of rush bg's where the enemy general could be killed before any objectives besides Commanders and Lieutenants were destroyed.

AV simply has a seriously flawed design in its reward structure that there was basically no considerable (honor) gain from defending, any honor was just found within the enemy territory (towers; Commanders & Lieutenants) keeping things intact within your half was just irrelevant.

1.12 simply opened the flood gates to exploit this flaw, which people did back then and that's what people are doing now.

[BSwitch]

I remember the good ol' days of 36 hour AV matches, groups fishing for a few hours just to take a break from the grind. Part of me really wanted that again. The other part of me, that doesn't like PvP, is pretty glad for the new zerg meta. It sucks when things don't work out, but is great when it does. Now, that said, people need to pay more attention to the game. Galv gives a good deal of honor - AND REP. Apparently, what, you get 300 rep for a win? You get 125 for killing Galv. Especially if things are starting to look bad, but really at any time, it seems like it'd make a lot of sense to start capping Galv. We can still scoot, but here - 100% go for Drek, 60% go for Galv, and do it up.

Coordinating and communicating all this to 39 strangers with herd mentality, in the min before AV starts? Not likely to happen. Here's to hoping the meta changes a bit so we can do more of the actual bg mechanics, without turning it into a terrible slog.

[Deficineiron]

Classic does that already.
We're playing the 1.12 world with 1.12 talents but content that was present in 1.12 is artificially closed off.

If you're going this far into the extreme of #nochanges, then classic fell through the floor to begin because Blizzard did not go for a 1:1 recreation of the Vanilla patchcycle.



Even in the link i posted, people said they'd rather have another version of AV.
Also, please link me the part of the #nochanges that somehow implies anything before 1.12 is offlimits.

This isn't about #nochanges until people like you felt the urge to bring it up, no one asked Blizzard to somehow put things into AV that were not present in Vanilla.

You just try to have a victory lap, when it in fact you didn't win anything, because this isn't about #nochanges, it's only your interpretation of "#nochanges (to 1.12)", which is as explained above already violated by Blizzard gating of content.

You are responding to word-thinkers who let the terms define themselves in absolute limits and treat them as factual.. Waste of time.

[vitor210]

Thinking this is somehow the fault of the "e-sport" or "retail" mentality is wrong.

This is not some sort of "the community found a gamebreaking loophole and now exploits it" situation, that's how AV was played post 1.12, meaning that was also the Meta since mid 2006.
The issue here is that AV simply operates within this gray area, 1.12 AV is technically still Vanilla, but in terms of Meta / Gameplay barely resembled the design philosophy of Vanilla anymore despite being a part of Vanilla.

1.12 is simply the worst version of AV, even the changes made to AV in TBC were basically made to limit these massive issues associated with 1.12 AV.

It attempted to put an emphasis onto towers and prevent this extreme version of rush bg's where the enemy general could be killed before any objectives besides Commanders and Lieutenants were destroyed.

AV simply has a seriously flawed design in its reward structure that there was basically no considerable (honor) gain from defending, any honor was just found within the enemy territory (towers; Commanders & Lieutenants) keeping things intact within your half was just irrelevant.

1.12 simply opened the flood gates to exploit this flaw, which people did back then and that's what people are doing now.

then what's the reason to give us the 1.12 AV instead of the old one? It's not even that the client can't handle it, we'se seen the old AV event on BfA for the past month!