Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[dacoolist]

MOST people don't even have curve lol - Cutting edge is extremely rare

I'd say like 1% of ALL RAIDERS even have a Mythic Ashvane kill.. so I mean lol Cutting edge is going to be SUPER rare

[Popastique]

It is called mythic raiding for a reason. If you have people who are not up to it - you either replace them, or just breeze through heroic and few mythic bosses here and there.

[A Chozo]

If Mythic Raiding dies because it's "too tight" or because of Classic, it deserves to stop being a feature anyway. It's too unpopular.

yeah it's more like 2%.

usually about 10% of guilds that kill the first mythic boss get cutting edge. If we are generous and say that 20% of all players raid heroic and/or kill the first mythic boss, that's 2%. but could easily be 1% or less, can't be that accurate with napkin math guesstimates.

Yeah, I feel like that 20% is way too generous.

We who comment in the fansites are a minority already - people here gotta remember that this is a bubble. The majority of the playerbase won't even do anything beyond Heroic Dungeons.

[dcc626]

Pretty much. Would be nice if they go a bit in the other direction on that and make playing your spec have more depth again.

and then the people who have issues keeping up with current specs can complain about the game being too difficult. its a never ending cycle.

[bullseyed]

Mythic was always meant to be the Hardest Content, perhaps you just aren't up to it anymore?

Yeah, sure, 1000 of 3000 guilds just all suddenly got bad at the same time.

[Xloudman]

I just hate how they've added more and more fights where a mechanic happens on a random person you can't assign, and if they don't do it right, then they wipe (or effectively wipe) the raid. Fights like Amber Shaper, Star Otter, Maiden of Vigilance, Kil'Jaeden, Varimathras, Vectis, G'huun, Mekka, Stormwall, and Orgozoa drive me up the fucking wall. I know you could technically assign the G'huun orb carriers, but everyone had to do it eventually so I count it. Lich King and Rag were kind of bad in this aspect too with defile and the seeds/triangle strat. I just want to be able to carry shitters. Give me more fights like Flame Leviathan, Thorim, Putricide, Blood Queen to some extent, Alysrazor, Brackenspore, or Grong, where the important mechanic can be assigned or controlled. Jadefire was nice with this because when someone messed up, they only killed themselves.

[bullseyed]

The curve is not bad.

The grind to compete is absurd.

The curve is bad and there is practically no grind.

There's a gap for guilds who got AOTC the first week and capped out at 4 or 5 mythic bosses down in a month or two of mythic prog. That means wiping on the same mythic boss for 3 to 5 months to end the tier, as good players leave and the replacements are a little worse each time.

I agree with the comment that perhaps the first 3 bosses should have actually been harder, so the wiping would have been spread out longer. Heck, my guild 19 man progged one of the first 3 in mythic, but won't get Orgo down. That's a pretty crazy bad curve.

[Hellobolis]

If Mythic Raiding dies because it's "too tight" or because of Classic, it deserves to stop being a feature anyway. It's too unpopular.

Yeah, I feel like that 20% is way too generous.

We who comment in the fansites are a minority already - people here gotta remember that this is a bubble. The majority of the playerbase won't even do anything beyond Heroic Dungeons.

i usually use the wowprogress number of kills on bosses as my guesstimate base.

right now about 15000 guilds have killed heroic first boss. if we assume 20 people per guild on average, and that being 20% of players. you end up with 1.5m current players, which i feel sounds reasonable.

710 guilds have killed mythic azshara. which if you round up is about 15000 players. which would be 1% of all players.

[bullseyed]

Pretty much this, in the past you knew that if you kill 5 bosses, items dropped will give you small boost and you will have a chance to kill 6th boss, difficulty was scaled accordingly. Now thanks to titanforging blizzard is forced to tune bosses for higher ilvls, so top guilds won't stomp the raid in first day and get bored. So in order to have chance to progress, you have to grind m+ for titanforged items, while regular loot from that few bosses you are able to kill is often useless to you.
tldr: mythic is too tight because of large ilvl range between seasons.

TLDR: M+ loot rewards have nearly destroyed the game. It is worse than early Arena days where raiders needed their BIS weapons from PVP to compete in raid.



On one hand, Blizzard recognized this and nerfed M+ next year, but then they shit the bed and let whiners convince them to add more ilvl back to M+. All I keep hearing is how M+ is more fun than raids, so if it truly is fun, perhaps all loot should be removed from M+ to fix raiding and allow M+ people to keep having fun.

[agentsi]

If guilds are clearing all of mythic inside of a week or two, the content is not hard. If you're still trying to clear that same content, 20 ilvls above where the world first folks were, while doing 20% less dps than they were, then you, or your guildmates, just aren't good enough.

Don't take that as an insult, but its just the truth. I would only raid one night a week in mythic, and we typically never made it to the end tier boss. We would always be 6/8 or 8/10, etc. But we didn't have the time, or the numbers to get folks interested in us. So we get folks who only parse blue at best, and can kinda do some mechanics. It's just how these things go.

[dcc626]

This is why I quit.

Used to be a pretty dedicated "raid night and log" player, because that's what I could afford. Gaming on a schedule is easier to schedule around.

Then Legion hit with the grind. I had no chance at competing with players that could grind, pretty quickly lost my raid spot. So Instead of playing more, like I'm sure Blizzard was pushing for, I just stopped playing.

Mythic raiding is/was my main motivation to play, especially with mythic capable players. Not Heroic, not Mythic+. I won't get serious about WoW until the endless grinds are gone.

the thing is, they are never going to go away completely. there will always be systems that require you to do something more than just raidlog. at least to not be gimped. if you arent interested in that, then its probably not going to get much better in the future. It wil be easier than now, but you will have to do the tower, grind legendaries, do content to fill out soulbinds in covenenants. and thats what we know a bit about now.

[araine]

Yeah, sure, 1000 of 3000 guilds just all suddenly got bad at the same time.

sounds like they finally got the tuning right, it was probably undertuned before when so many got a green light to pass that content. mythic is meant to be very hard and very few should have what it takes to get it done

[dcc626]

If there only was a progression system that naturally increased player power over the course of multiple weeks, rather than cramp all its progression into the first two weeks of a new patch and then rely on extreme RNG mechanics in order to gain minimal upgrades.

Oh, right, gear used to be that progression system, but thanks to flexible lockouts, PL and most importantly M+, gear as a progression is now utterly defunct and gets a soft reset with every patch.

This simple fact affects the difficulty of a final boss, because it's tuned around you already having Mythic Ilvl, in order to retain some difficulty, it all has been moved to mechanics.

Compare the mechanics of Heroic Ragnaros to Mythic Azshara, Heroic Rag looks like a Heroic Boss by comparison, but was still interesting to progress because you had to kill him with only a handful of heroic pieces, which worked because the encounter just hit the sweet spot of being doable despite being "undergeared" for the encounter.

Other guilds just met Ragnaros with an already higher Ilvl, thus did not have such a big struggle than cutting edge guilds.

Gear used to naturally nerf encounters over time, that effect is entirely gone for the final boss of a tier since Legion because you're already decked out with huge Ilvl once you actually hit the final boss.

its a case of "its too late to go back now". they arent going to make m+ not give gear.

[psyquest]

8/8M CE guild here. raiding 3 nights.

We have felt the need to get better during Antorus. We just did not have a roster good enough to clear before the previous tiers was out. I recruited aggressively and honestly we did good. However since wod, it seems that blizzards has abandonned the nerfing aura in raids that helped everyone catch up and farming becoming simpler over time.

Unfortunately the fact is that current gear/ilvl/player power is extremely controlled. It is tightely controlled and you can no longer brute force some bosses and since there is no more weekly nerfs with a raid wide aura, it means players need to always be on their toes, even during farm.

I have abandonned the idea of keeping friends in the raid roster if they were not carrying their weight. Sad but could not avoid it. Since Legion it has become harder to carry people whislt previously we could tolerate 3 to 5 average joes in the roster.

I guess it is a problem since raiding populations were more healthy before. at 8/8M CE we are finding it hard to recruit :-/

[antelope591]

Mythic progress is just to tight. I'm happy that the cutting edge can have a difficult race, but us guilds floating around top 2000 are bursting at the seams.
It started in BoD and continued this tier. My guild has just stopped progress after achieving the Court kill. It's just too exhausting.

We're not alone in this apparently. It feels like the 1500 to 3000 range of guilds is crumbling away. Either that or classic killed a thousand raids, because my guild suddenly jumped a thousand spots from last tier to this one. In my 12 years of raidleading, I've never experienced something like this.

From Ashvane onwards the bosses are just unforgivingingly tight. Lose more players than your rez count and you can reset. It used to be that you can yeet a boss with one or two dead, but I can't even justify letting our elderly ret paladin play on progress night. There's a lot of newfound resentment and frustration among my raiders towards the players that are performing *just* average numbers or fail more than once on any given mechanic.

Unlike older tiers, there's basically no power gain. Since titanforging got nerfed hard and AP caps at 70, it feels like we're stagnating while running against a wall. Normally I could say 'We're a little bit more powerful next week, lets try again', but that's not happening. Every week clearing Orgozoa is just as hard and tight as the first time.

We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya?
I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.

You're 100% right regardless of what the "git gud" circle jerkers say. 700 guilds have killed Azshara worldwide, that's a pathetic number for a game with supposedly millions of players. We're almost back to Naxx 40 clear numbers which at the time Blizz said they would never want to repeat. Well it took a while but we're basically back full circle. The combination of a terrible expansion, punishing raid design and out of raid grind requirements have basically put mythic raiding on its deathbed. It will be telling what Blizz does going forward in Shadowlands. If they even want to continue to support raiding or make a switch to smaller group focused content (obviously M+ is already a huge step towards that).

[BeepBoo]

Well, skill(which comes with time spent/practice) and time put into the actual raiding part of the game.

Agreed.

The person who was on earlier about "grinds" and such hit the nail on the head for me. I only want to raid log because I only want to dedicate maybe 8 hrs a week to wow. I only have time for so much games now-a-days and that means I want to only eat the steak when I do play. I spent plenty of time to earn my right IMO. Over 500 days of /played across my 12 year period. I had the skill required and I was fine hitting brick walls with my ham-fisted guild members who had difficulty with mechanics, but I was NOT fine with lagging behind on parses because my neck wasn't 65... or I didn't use benthic gear... or I don't have rank 3 of some broken essence because I can't stomach needing to do mechagon 5 weeks in a row (though I could just do 5 back to back no problem).

[Kralljin]

its a case of "its too late to go back now". they arent going to make m+ not give gear.

True, doesn't mean however that this turned out to be huge mistake on Blizzards part.
Because in earlier expansions, we didn't need to systems like Artifacts / Azerite to progress your character or extreme RNG mechanics like Titanforging / Corruption.

You had gear and you simply played the content you enjoyed the most to acquire it.
Which never carried the issues that Artifacts or Azerite had.

Gear as a progression system worked pretty well for a long time, if we now take a look at what Blizzard has come up so far as substitute to simulate a similiar effect, it doesn't look too well.

[OokOok]

It has nothing to do with classic so all these people saying "It's cause of classic!" shut up and go farm your dal rend blades, nothing will ever be because of classic, infact people are quitting classic cause of how boring it is every day.

Guilds are being killed off in Retail cause the game is just gettin dull, all there is to it, it's not because of bosses tuning. There's just no reason to lose your mind 4-7 days a week on bosses when you can just join a casual guild, raid 1 night and do M+ and get geared before those Mythic guys do.
The rewards no longer outweigh the cons

[callipygoustp]

I will never understand why people are against content being designed for the top 5%. No sarcasm. No joke. There is plenty of content for the rest of the player base. Why can't there be content specifically for the high end players? Leave the system alone. Its fine as is.

[Garymorilix]

When you have an elderly ret pally doing AVERAGE and still át 6/8 M progress then thats Just as far as extra gear carried you.

People are already lightyears ahead in gear compared to the first 100 kills or WF.

Improve individual game and you will have your kills.

Flat out admitting being AVERAGE then whining how you are still 80% done only is Just wrong.

Imo you already done more bosses than you should have with that attitude.