Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[TrollHunter3000]

Mythic progress is just to tight. I'm happy that the cutting edge can have a difficult race, but us guilds floating around top 2000 are bursting at the seams.
It started in BoD and continued this tier. My guild has just stopped progress after achieving the Court kill. It's just too exhausting.

We're not alone in this apparently. It feels like the 1500 to 3000 range of guilds is crumbling away. Either that or classic killed a thousand raids, because my guild suddenly jumped a thousand spots from last tier to this one. In my 12 years of raidleading, I've never experienced something like this.

From Ashvane onwards the bosses are just unforgivingingly tight. Lose more players than your rez count and you can reset. It used to be that you can yeet a boss with one or two dead, but I can't even justify letting our elderly ret paladin play on progress night. There's a lot of newfound resentment and frustration among my raiders towards the players that are performing *just* average numbers or fail more than once on any given mechanic.

Unlike older tiers, there's basically no power gain. Since titanforging got nerfed hard and AP caps at 70, it feels like we're stagnating while running against a wall. Normally I could say 'We're a little bit more powerful next week, lets try again', but that's not happening. Every week clearing Orgozoa is just as hard and tight as the first time.

We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya?
I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.

Not every guild is meant to clear the raid. The number that have cleared it before the next raid are about what is normal.

[Taeldorian]

Speaking from a world 200 perspective (which isn’t great, like mid tier mythic guild) I like the challenge. I don’t mind wiping 200-300 times, even more if needed. I like the bosses being difficult. There’s definitely an argument about mythic being too difficult and too limiting, in the past there were plenty of guilds in ICC heroic (now mythic) which isn’t the case anymore but I’m okay with it being very difficult.

However, what’s really fucking me up is all of the required grinding just to be able to play the game let alone stay competitive in raid. Having things outside of raid to do is awesome but I wish they weren’t tied to raiding personally. In 8.3 we have essence grind, AP grind, invasion/horrific vision grind, etc. It feels like it just keeps piling up. Most of this content is actually terrible as well, like grinding world quests/islands for AP which makes the fact it’s essentially required even worse.

It seems like next expansion will actually fix it with no AP grind, no TF, no essences, huge alt friendly changes and only 1 thing to seemingly grind and there’s a cap on it. We’ll have to see but that’s a positive at least.

[Cæli]

that wouldn't be a problem if the factions were actually balanced.

[Kralljin]

split runs are far better now lol,its actualy extreme,wanna gear your main rogue?make a grp full of rogue alts,someone will 100% get the dagger he needs,repeate for every main

The issue is that said alts need an item on that slot with the same Ilvl beforehand in order to trade it, therefore the value of split raiding significantly drops.
And as said, you can already get Heroic Ilvl items from M+ as well, so you can also just spam M+ until you get a weapon, which you'll be doing anyway because M+ is super valueable at the release of a new tier.

The only thing worth trading in Raids are trinkets (which now require multiple loops to to jump through until you can trade it) and Azerite Pieces and for that, you just have alts buy Heroic Ilvl pieces and then hope for the best.
Really only Method and a handful of other guilds are doing that to the extreme.
What you previously acquired via extreme split runs is now replaced by M+.

We're down to like two Heroic raids during the first tier, which is more than reasonable as opposed to the ~4 split runs some guilds were doing.

If limited attempts were a thing again, be sure top guilds would throw multiple teams at them, starting with the weakest team to survey the waters. If limited attempts were account wide, be sure they'd just circumvent it by buying extra accounts. What then? Ban multiboxing? I bet all the herbing druid packs are gonna be happy about that one?

Not saying Limited attempts are a decent solution, just pointing out that split runs aren't much of anymore due to stated reasons.

[Drusin]

It means more and more people don't want to put an effort in mythic raiding. That is why the reward of mythic raiding should be enticing and rewarding enough so that people actually try to increase their skill and try to put some effort in it

Nope, there will just be more sales lol

They can spend weeks trying to improve or throw maybe a million gold at the reward a few weeks before the tier ends when it's cheap

[GreenJesus]

If limited attempts were a thing again, be sure top guilds would throw multiple teams at them, starting with the weakest team to survey the waters. If limited attempts were account wide, be sure they'd just circumvent it by buying extra accounts. What then? Ban multiboxing? I bet all the herbing druid packs are gonna be happy about that one?

Limited attempts just make casual (1500+) raids toxic. If someone accidently ninja pulls, instead of people being a little upset and muttering under their breath there will be full on screaming. "You just made us lose one of our 50 pulls for the week! WTF man KILL YOURSELF!"

[Tradu]

that wouldn't be a problem if the factions were actually balanced.

Definitely still would be.

[Tiwack]

A flat nerf kinda feels bad. I can vividly remember barely not killing Illidan before the % nerf hit and facerolling him afterwards. I prefer amping player power.

Amping player power has the same effect, I don't remember how they nerfed Illidan but with the ICC buff they could twist it to increment at 1% a week instead of hike it by 10% every month 3 times or however that went down. Leave it adjustable to the raid how much 'help' they wanted instead of everything available or nothing at all.

[Marrilaife]

Limited attempts just make casual (1500+) raids toxic. If someone accidently ninja pulls, instead of people being a little upset and muttering under their breath there will be full on screaming. "You just made us lose one of our 50 pulls for the week! WTF man KILL YOURSELF!"

Generally it doesn't solve any problems and only creates new ones.

[DazManianDevil]

I completely agree with this. The problem is players get fully geared in the first week or two because of mythic+ and so blizzard can't tune the difficulty assuming your gear starts low and ramps up higher as you get gear from killing bosses. You basically start the first mythic boss at a gear level that would have been normal for the mid-late bosses.

Did someone say, 4slot socketed Benthic?
No, just me?

[Lurker1]

Mythic progress is just to tight. I'm happy that the cutting edge can have a difficult race, but us guilds floating around top 2000 are bursting at the seams.
It started in BoD and continued this tier. My guild has just stopped progress after achieving the Court kill. It's just too exhausting.

We're not alone in this apparently. It feels like the 1500 to 3000 range of guilds is crumbling away. Either that or classic killed a thousand raids, because my guild suddenly jumped a thousand spots from last tier to this one. In my 12 years of raidleading, I've never experienced something like this.

From Ashvane onwards the bosses are just unforgivingingly tight. Lose more players than your rez count and you can reset. It used to be that you can yeet a boss with one or two dead, but I can't even justify letting our elderly ret paladin play on progress night. There's a lot of newfound resentment and frustration among my raiders towards the players that are performing *just* average numbers or fail more than once on any given mechanic.

Unlike older tiers, there's basically no power gain. Since titanforging got nerfed hard and AP caps at 70, it feels like we're stagnating while running against a wall. Normally I could say 'We're a little bit more powerful next week, lets try again', but that's not happening. Every week clearing Orgozoa is just as hard and tight as the first time.

We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya?
I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.

Feels good man!

[Nubulous]

As a Cutting Edge player: I agree. Mythic is currently fucking overtuned and hard on guild rosters.

Wouldnt be AS bad if Mythic was also way more rewarding. Eternal Palace is a shitshow in rewards. Might possibly be the most unrewarding full raid I can remember to be frank since I came back to Mythic during HFC at the end of WOD No mounts and Benthic Gear can take up 4 slots. Some classes 2 Azerite BIS come from OUTSIDE the raid too.

[Relapses]

I skipped this tier and I'm kind of glad I did. It looks like a fucking disaster. The fights themselves are kind of fun but Bethnic gear is one of the stupidest fucking things Blizzard has ever introduced to the game.

[Marrilaife]

Wouldnt be AS bad if Mythic was also way more rewarding. Eternal Palace is a shitshow in rewards. Might possibly be the most unrewarding full raid I can remember to be frank since I came back to Mythic during HFC at the end of WOD No mounts and Benthic Gear can take up 4 slots. Some classes 2 Azerite BIS come from OUTSIDE the raid too.

I have bad flashbacks to tomb of Sargeras, another raid where people were going back to NH for trinkets, some classes still used NH sets, you ofc had locked leggo slots, no mounts at the end of the raid...

[ro9ue]

That's just not a serious suggestion. We'd be done in a week and bore ourselves to death. There has to be something in between for the multiple thousand guilds in our shoes, and that's basically what this post is about.

Where do you draw the line then? Does Blizzard have to have a difficulty for an infinite number of increments to make sure every possible guild can complete the tier at just the right difficulty? There are already 4 and that's good enough.

[Super Kami Dende]

Yeah, sure, 1000 of 3000 guilds just all suddenly got bad at the same time.

I didn't say that got bad, perhaps the challenge just got more challenging. I mean People have been crying for years that there is no "hard" content in WoW and as soon as there is People cry that only the top raiders can do it.

[GringoD]

Where do you draw the line then? Does Blizzard have to have a difficulty for an infinite number of increments to make sure every possible guild can complete the tier at just the right difficulty? There are already 4 and that's good enough.

What's with this weird obsession concerning difficulties inside your mind? Who asked for new ones?
It's okay to be progressing within Mythic for a whole tier. We've done it for as long as the mode exists.

[Orwell7]

I didn't say that got bad, perhaps the challenge just got more challenging. I mean People have been crying for years that there is no "hard" content in WoW and as soon as there is People cry that only the top raiders can do it.

Hey-hey, there are STILL people who cry that this is too easy. Also don't forget the 8-12-14 months of nothingness.

I think what people are really missing is PROGRESSION.
Now you need to be "raid-ready" which meant like 430 before Mythic, and when my guild disbanded on M Azshara, I was at 441. Most of the progression is spent outside the raid by grinding essences and neck-levels for using them.

The characters power level shifted from gear to "other" things like Azerite slots, essences, benthic procs.
The DIFFICULTY itself is shifted from being able to play your character properly (ie. pumping out the necessary DPS and HPS numbers to the right target at the right time) to playing a platformer game where you need to move constantly to the shit the game throws at you, and playing your CHARACTER becomes secondary.
We no longer feel "attached" to our characters, because the HARD CONTENT this game offers is NOT GETTING EASIER if your character gets stronger! That's the problem.
Instead of jumping puzzles that can be automated by a WA and being a constant pain in the ass, let's go back to a classic RPG where what matters THE MOST is the progression of your character, the power of your character (and how skillful you are at it!).

Staggered item-levels like in HFC would be a good idea for a 10+ boss raid, for a start. Bosses 1-5. should drop X, 6-8. X+5, 9-10 X+10. ilvls, or something extra like the Archimonde trinket which made your CHARACTER insanely more fun/powerful.
This way if you made a certain progress with your guild, you could be happy about it because you KNOW that week-by-week your raid team is getting stronger. Now everyone is expected to be fully-geared at week zero.
Yes, killing the Mythic Endboss should reward a shitton of power via unique gear/trinkets/you name it.

(I'd rather have the endboss only killable on Mythic for the first 2 months, this should be the "true test", I bet everyone and their mother would go hardcore because loot is a shitton more fun if its exclusive for the best-of-the-best)

[Mumba]

How about adding an increasing raid buff (say ICC) so you'll probably able to finish it at some point, but with it activated you won't be guaranteed the raid mount/achievement or you'll get extra loot without it and it won't affect the other raiders, which a massive raid nerf will do, and it will still be a lot harder than heroic.

Then at least your guild will be able to clear the tier and won't feel like you've wasted your time like with raiding fatigue and 1/3 of your guild quits.

[czarek]

Ah retail maybe ill come back in 8.3 but probably ill stick to classic till new expansion or just to classic at all :P TBH mythic should be tight its endgame. Grindig essence to get advance in raid is ridicolous form of edging the balance. Hopefully that is last time we have to grind to get new or more power and do it again after major patch >< Thats why i love classic every progres on ur toon is real progress and have matter.