Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Krille]

As it should be, it isnt mythic content if you can carry 5 scrubs

Also you make friends as you climb the ladder. Old friends can join the funruns in heroic.

[Marrilaife]

2 officers, GM are the ones still there, basically. When you try to push ranks, you quickly see which players cant keep up with learning the fights fast enough. At our current pace we almost have to kill at least 1 boss per raid. So if we have some raiders fail over and over during that night they arent good enough. And back when we were 500-1000 you could always look at guides or multiple guilds, but the higher you go, the less info there is. Not everyone can copy Method strats cus they usually require insane prep/skill.

Well it's basically the same as if the 3 of you left a rank 1000 guild and joined a rank 100 guild.

The bigger question is what about the people who belong to the rank ~1000 guilds. The people who due to lack of skill, awareness, poor internet connection, lag, crap pc, gaps in attendance or w/e other reason can't do the leap forward.

As a guild, you can discard them. But as a game developer and balancing team, do you discard a portion of the playerbase who despite small, is still bigger than the top 100-200 guild members?

I know Blizzard just posted a list of nerfs for next week, but it's 1 month until the tier is over, for that timeframe is seems like not much.

[mauserr]

What I feel in BfA is that the requirements to join a mythic raiding guild went up. I have raided heroic/mythic since WotLK, but not in BfA, and I can't seem to join any decent mythic guild atm (at least 7/8M).
And replying to OP, I don't feel like there's much grind. I have 5 toons with 70 neck, Mechagon/Nazjatar essences, 2 of them with CLF and Conflict.
Even if you are one of the guilds that use 2 chars for progression, getting essences/neck level for 2 toons is extremely easy and low time required.

So you're saying you want to get boosted? Lower your expectations if you don't have any decent high level raiding history. You stopped playing hardcore, you have to start from the bottom of the ladder unless your old guild still raids with more or less the same people and is willing to... you guessed it, boost you again.

[Krille]

Well it's basically the same as if the 3 of you left a rank 1000 guild and joined a rank 100 guild.

The bigger question is what about the people who belong to the rank ~1000 guilds. The people who due to lack of skill, awareness, poor internet connection, lag, crap pc, gaps in attendance or w/e other reason can't do the leap forward.

As a guild, you can discard them. But as a game developer and balancing team, do you discard a portion of the playerbase who despite small, is still bigger than the top 100-200 guild members?

I know Blizzard just posted a list of nerfs for next week, but it's 1 month until the tier is over, for that timeframe is seems like not much.

It didnt happen over night, its quite insulting you think we could just join a 100 guild and it would be the same effort. We spent 3 years of ever increasing recruitment efforts and possibly cycling through 100s of players under the same banner as before. Until recently, when the ship steadied and current comp can achieve 100-150 rank consistently.

Blizzard isnt catering to us, we're a semi casual guild with low requirements pre new raid. But we make it work, just like anyone else can with the right leadership/players.

[Marrilaife]

Stop with the hand out shit

It's not a "hand out", why are so many people exaggerating and strawmaning, it's not like mythic being nerfed makes it suddenly lfr level of difficulty, it doesn't even make it below or equal to heroic, it's still harder just by a smaller margin. LFR is a handout because it's meant to be - a tourist mode, a place to see the "story" with minimal effort.

Nerfs in EP have been extremely tame in comparison to let's say, Nighthold, where not only were bosses nerfed multiple times, but players had a whole patch of power creep land mid progression.

[Krille]

It's not a "hand out", why are so many people exaggerating and strawmaning, it's not like mythic being nerfed makes it suddenly lfr level of difficulty, it doesn't even make it below or equal to heroic, it's still harder just by a smaller margin. LFR is a handout because it's meant to be - a tourist mode, a place to see the "story" with minimal effort.

Nerfs in EP have been extremely tame in comparison to let's say, Nighthold, where not only were bosses nerfed multiple times, but players had a whole patch of power creep land mid progression.

Im all for nerfs mate, bring em on. I am guessing the guy wants it easier baseline for no reason: hand out. I appreciate it not being a pushover, you need some adversity in life.

[Baleful]

Mythic participation has been down by almost 25% of the population (1% G'huun was like 800 guilds, 3% Azshara is close to 700 guilds), the fact that you stay at the same world rank means that the guild has been getting worse to the point you are not able to complete the raid anymore. This raid is not harder by any means than BoD, nor rquires class stacking like Uldir, and the "essence grind" is pointless to this point. I have a 5 days/8 hours job and still i mantain 2 alts with rank 3 essences no problem, and i am preparing a third one just for fun. The game basically only requires daily emmisary (15 minutes) one m+/week, 3 mythic islands/week and warfronts once every about 2 weeks, that's like 5 to 6 hours a week + raiding time (around 9 and 15 hours for most raids); so being really generous, yo need about 20 hours/week of free time.

[tikcol]

Mythic is tight to keep the shitters out but they keep banging on the door because they can't enter.

Even in WoW with 4 bloody difficulty levels people still cry about it being too hard. You have content available to you, play it.

[justandulas]

Classic wouldn't have hurt guilds so bad if they hadn't massively amped up the retail grind to 11 and then doubled down on it. The grind never ends!

This is why i personally never came back to BFA.

That and classic murdered my guild so bad

[Koloss]

We made the journey from a top 500-1000 guild into what is now approx 150 ranked guild and reduced our raiding hours doing it (from 12 hours/week to 10 hours). The ocean of skill between players in top 2k to top 200 is vast, you simply don't realise it when you're at the bottom of the barrel. We have more or less replaced 95% of the guild along the way, because they held us back.

Well i wasn't talking about top 150 guilds, I was talking about the difference between guilds that get CE (like top 1500(?)) and that are close to get it (let's say top 3000) as the OP wanted to clear the content in the first place as i understand.

So i still think that the best halves of two top 3000 guilds could make a top 500-1000 guild. And i think that the skill gap between the best player of a top 3000 one and the average player of a top 500 one is much smaller (if there is any) than the skill gap between the best and worst players of the 3000 one.

[Krille]

Well i wasn't talking about top 150 guilds, I was talking about the difference between guilds that get CE (like top 1500(?)) and that are close to get it (let's say top 3000) as the OP wanted to clear the content in the first place as i understand.

So i still think that the best halves of two top 3000 guilds could make a top 500-1000 guild. And i think that the skill gap between the best player of a top 3000 one and the average player of a top 500 one is much smaller (if there is any) than the skill gap between the best and worst players of the 3000 one.

People always assume this. And yes there are plenty of really good players stuck in bad guilds cus they prioritize irl friends or whatever. But within top 100 there's a big skill difference between top and bottom. The game is so old that there are multiple layers, also skill in wow is kinda weird. Its not just hitting buttons, its reading situations, quickness of mind etc. Things you might not consider when you can afford wiping up to 100 times on each boss.

[Tradu]

Peak raiding was vanilla and BC because you had server communities. It was a vastly more complex and interesting raiding scene back then, as you not only tried to kill raid bosses to advance and get loot, but you were racing other guilds on your same server for 1st kills. You would wipe on a raid boss, and then during the downtime you'd wait for reports of rival guilds killing bosses and hoping they don't pass you or get further ahead. Or if you downed a boss, you'd spread the word with glee across your server to let everyone know your guild is moving up your server rankings.

Today, raiding feels like a SHELL of its former self because there is no server community. I kill a boss. I don't kill a boss. No-one cares either way. The Hall of Fame achievement means nothing to anyone either. Its hollow. I'd remove Hall of Fame from the game, period. Its just stupid.

One way to try to recapture the feel of the old server community would be guild LEAGUES. You get paired up with other raiding guilds into a league and compete with rival guilds in your league for 1st kills. Award prizes for winning your league, for 2nd place, 3rd place, etc. A KEY component of league play would be communication within the league. Create an observer mode. Allow anyone in the league to observe your guild's raid attempts. Include a league chat feature and bulletin board. THAT would make raiding great again.

Modern raiding feels meaningless.

Your guild leagues idea was awful. People still care, it's just not server based anymore. It's on forums, discords etc

[psyquest]

As it should be, it isnt mythic content if you can carry 5 scrubs

I feel, may be wrongly, that you fail to see the big picture. Either because you haven't been in the game since the beginning or you have never dealt with recruitment and managing a guild.

To all those that pretend, like this gentleman, that mythic need to be exclusive for ever. You may not see the big picture or you are not dealing with recruitment.

Hard mythic can be done, it is meant to be hard, it is mythic. it is ok to have super hard bosses, I love it. But over time it needs to get nerfed.

Every guild regardless of level feeds from a pool of players. If you are a CE guild, you are fed players from guild that are still progressing in the raid. These guilds are fed players from guilds with lower progression etc.

Guilds die, here and there and then players go to other guilds keeping the whole thing running. People even from CE guilds quit playing for various reasons etc. To feed players around the pool of players is not infinite, it has actually been dwindling down.

BUT what happens when progression as a whole screech to a halt and only CE guild manage to finish?
Some players still progressing move on top, some stop, some quit.
But when the progression is blocked everywhere, more people actually stop playing the game than feed other guilds. At some points, this phenomenon reach the CE guild that find themselves with hardly no recruit with the required skill to recruit.

A healthy raiding scene depends on a healthy progression of all guilds in the raid. The progression need to be helped with a smooth nerfing of the raid or smooth increase in power of toons or both. This is key. I am not talking about a seconds month nerf etc, but an eventual smooth nerf that hits at some point when the guilds start hitting their walls.

I am worried that the next raid at 8.3 will see the lowest raid participation ever.

disclaimer: I run a mythic CE guild , 3 nights, that have been around since Vanilla. I am responsible for recruitment.

[Krille]

I feel, may be wrongly, that you fail to see the big picture. Either because you haven't been in the game since the beginning or you have never dealt with recruitment and managing a guild.

To all those that pretend, like this gentleman, that mythic need to be exclusive for ever. You may not see the big picture or you are not dealing with recruitment.

Hard mythic can be done, it is meant to be hard, it is mythic. it is ok to have super hard bosses, I love it. But over time it needs to get nerfed.

Every guild regardless of level feeds from a pool of players. If you are a CE guild, you are fed players from guild that are still progressing in the raid. These guilds are fed players from guilds with lower progression etc.

Guilds die, here and there and then players go to other guilds keeping the whole thing running. People even from CE guilds quit playing for various reasons etc. To feed players around the pool of players is not infinite, it has actually been dwindling down.

BUT what happens when progression as a whole screech to a halt and only CE guild manage to finish?
Some players still progressing move on top, some stop, some quit.
But when the progression is blocked everywhere, more people actually stop playing the game than feed other guilds. At some points, this phenomenon reach the CE guild that find themselves with hardly no recruit with the required skill to recruit.

A healthy raiding scene depends on a healthy progression of all guilds in the raid. The progression need to be helped with a smooth nerfing of the raid or smooth increase in power of toons or both. This is key. I am not talking about a seconds month nerf etc, but an eventual smooth nerf that hits at some point when the guilds start hitting their walls.

I am worried that the next raid at 8.3 will see the lowest raid participation ever.

disclaimer: I run a mythic CE guild , 3 nights, that have been around since Vanilla. I am responsible for recruitment.

CE isnt and shouldnt be guaranteed because you raid mythic. All of your concerns can be summed up by stating that the game has less players overall. You simply cant let every guild achieve CE, then its not cutting edge, its the same as getting the regular mythic achievement.

[Vynx]

So you're saying you want to get boosted? Lower your expectations if you don't have any decent high level raiding history. You stopped playing hardcore, you have to start from the bottom of the ladder unless your old guild still raids with more or less the same people and is willing to... you guessed it, boost you again.

I rolled my eyes 3 times reading your post. FYI, i have 2 chars ready for mythic EP, 3/8M killed with pugs I made myself, cuz ofc no one was inviting me with no kill history. And I got knowledge of the rest of the bosses. I'm not getting boosted at all, in fact, I am one of those that hate boosting. The reason I'm not looking at guilds that have less than 7/8M is because those are not up to my standards, and from my experience they got quite some below average raiders.

[Kokolums]

Your guild leagues idea was awful. People still care, it's just not server based anymore. It's on forums, discords etc

its a great idea, and people dont care about raiding like in the past.

[psyquest]

CE isnt and shouldnt be guaranteed because you raid mythic. All of your concerns can be summed up by stating that the game has less players overall. You simply cant let every guild achieve CE, then its not cutting edge, its the same as getting the regular mythic achievement.

Nowhere have I stated that CE is or should be guaranteed because a guild raid mythics. No No no no.


There should be a cut off point where if you didnt get CE, tough shit, get good, get better recruit, whatever. It is no longer available after that point.

At that point, there should be steady nerfs to the raid whilst waiting for the next raid tiers. CE guild carry on farming more easily and faster. Guild that want still to progress dont need to hit a wall and disapear. everyone wins and I can carry fucking recruiting because players stay engaged in the bloody game instead of just quitting.

Hope you read it all.

[Volitar]

The content itself didn't kill me the upkeep of chores did. Down with Legion/BFA model.

[Gorsameth]

CE isnt and shouldnt be guaranteed because you raid mythic. All of your concerns can be summed up by stating that the game has less players overall. You simply cant let every guild achieve CE, then its not cutting edge, its the same as getting the regular mythic achievement.

Why do you keep arguing against strawmen that no one is claiming?

No where does he say everyone needs to finish CE. Not having progress blocked by a hard wall is not the same as giving everyone CE.
Take 2 guilds in a 10 boss raid.
Guild 1 is a 'decent' CE guild. They kill the first 6 bosses in 2 weeks. a month for the next 2, a month for the next and another month for the last boss. They clear the raid in a comfortable 3.5 months.
Guild 2 is a 'Mythic' guild. They kill the first 3 bosses in 2 weeks. a month for the next 2, a month for the next and they hit a wall on boss 7. Progress stops, a month passes with no end in sight, another month passes. More and more people leave. progress goes backwards instead of forwards, more leave, guild dies. Some might find a better guild but a lot of them will quit never to come back.

What you want is for guild 2 to keep progressing by incrementally nerfing bosses or buffing player power so that a month of progress does let them beat boss 7, and eventually they would get boss 8, 9 and 10. But they don't have until eventually they have 6 months till the next raid. They don't need to get to the final boss in time, because each boss takes them longer then the 'decent CE' guild. But you want them to feel like they are steadily moving along.

A hard wall they can't get past makes people quit, a softer wall that you can eventually scale makes people stick around.
But all the one shot mechanics and hard fails in recent fights mean that the soft power increases are not letting these 'lesser' players feel like they can get past the boss.

You don't need to hand people the end price on a silver platter, you just need to give them the feeling that given enough time (which they don't have, because next raid) they could make it.

[cuafpr]

what if after the hall of fame was done there was a buff that was given for each boss kill that carried over week to week? like if a guild is struggling on boss 5, each week killing boss 1-4 gives a 1% buff to the group, next reset it goes up to 2%. to easy to cheese? I'm no longer a progression raider but I can relate with the pain from back in the day.