How Long Until Pay To Win Happens?

[Heathy]

even in bdo more pay to win than eve online, if you had logged into it this last week you would have gained all the cash shop items you'd need to last you a while, you'd be short pets, but, they gave away quite a lot of shit this xmas. inventory space, a costume was given away today so if you log into bdo now and you've done 1 awakening quest, you'll get a free costume, worth like 20 euros, that you would normally have to buy or wait forever to be listed on the market. even bdo, super pay to win, can still be avoided by playing the long game and sponging event rewards and login rewards grinding it out. you can 'win' without spending anything, but just because you can doesn't make it less pay to win. you can still pay to win, even if you can long game. most games will try almost anything to get you to spend money on it and i don't think there is anything wrong with that, if you like a game and play it often then its probably worth spending some money on it if you enjoy it.

oddly though, the difference between eve online, bdo and wow, is that the top end moves in wow, the pinnacle of progression changes multiple times a year. while the pinnacle of eve and bdo has largely remained the same for years and hasn't moved.

[KaPe]

Because the game begins at max level?
Because leveling is the least part of this game that most people prefer to skip?
And boosts to current max level introduced when? after a year of xpac?

And... you know, that FFXIV for example selling QUESTS skip for real money

A better example would be Korrak's Revenge - which is completely free and allows extremely quick levelling to 120. Sure, you need to get 60 first, but if one had a ton of old alts, they can be trivially maxed for no cost. And before that, we had Legion invasion, which worked from 1 to 100 easily.

Funny how these sort of events directly cut into boost sales in a supposedly P2W game. And what about the upcoming levelling speed increase/rework in Shadowlands? Yet another reason to not spend money. Man, these Blizzard guys must be idiots, they fail at the most basic form of P2W.

[Beefhammer]

KJ has only 2% of total playerbase killing him
Lich King who was the peak of most hardcore raiding had 1.5% of total playerbase killing him when he was content
most wow players don't even get hc kill, most mmo posters like to fake being the most pro ever but reality is even just buy a boost 8/8 hc put u in top 25% of game if not even higher, that's still a win, specially since it costed u in term of effort and skill absolutely nothing, just some extra cash that is np for u 1st world citizen whose income is only 99% higher than most living humans who happen to live in 3rd world countries
and what server u play at ? i used to play at Twisting Neither eu in WoD/Legion/BFA which is one of most crowded servers in all eu horde, yet pugging since introduction of tokens is dead, either u already outgear the raid by a lot before u join or pay for boost (they even tell u to go buy a boost if u want to join a pug later)

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the idea of shop of any form in a full price game with a sub shouldn't happen, but mount shop isn't p2w
the only thing that made wow p2w is token that made the transfer from euro to wow gold, getting a mount is in no way a p2w
and in compare to other full price full subbed game, the only other game that has that rule now (lol...) is FF14 and they don't have much in shop either

Go look again. Like mentioned earlier, above it has over 400 items for sale and they are pretty aggressive pushing the items on the launcher. Not counting character services I think WoW has had under 50 total items since 2008.

[Queen of Hamsters]

By the idiotic logic of some, aka buying boosts = winning, WoW has been p2w since the first paid MC run in Vanilla.

Real answer void of idiocy: Never. It aint p2w now, it never will be. Rest easy.

[iinverse]

A better example would be Korrak's Revenge - which is completely free and allows extremely quick levelling to 120. Sure, you need to get 60 first, but if one had a ton of old alts, they can be trivially maxed for no cost.

Yep, get all my toons (something like 12 chars) to 120 in no time

[chiddie]

Time is money as they say.

Exactly.

I win some time, no more nor less. It’s not my definition of p2w, honestly.

As long as you can’t buy ALL bis-es in AH, tokens are not p2w by any meaning.

[Yunaqt]

i farmed the game loike you suppose to do and buyed it, i have a few millions left in my bank, 0 token buyed

forcing token to buy ? lol..

and for the topic, ptw will happens when the game will be less popular, because doing it now would the death of the game directly lol

if they have another mmorpg in mind or preparation in a few years, i think the ptw for WoW will happens at this moment

Yeah bought mine as soon as we reached Boralus had thr gold all ready to go ^^

[Gevoth]

Boost catch up in wow - is for bad players over bad players.
You can't catch up to good player progress by paying gold, only for mediocre shit like 10 keys or hc raid, and even not in first weeks of tier, when all good players already did all progress they want.

Fair enough. Something to think about though is a recent world first race where more than 100,000,000g was spent by a single guild to gain an advantage. I'm not sure if it was necessary, but they obviously felt it was and they did end up winning.

[Rendark]

Exactly.

I win some time, no more nor less. It’s not my definition of p2w, honestly.

As long as you can’t buy ALL bis-es in AH, tokens are not p2w by any meaning.

Sure they are. It's still p2w no matter how small.

[chiddie]

Sure they are. It's still p2w no matter how small.

We have a different concept of winning but indeed.

Merry Xmas.

[Alvito]

Aren't tokens capped? Can you even buy enough of them at once to pay for a serious mythic boost with all the gear?

They are uncapped now. Before you could only buy 10 a week in game and as much as you wanted out of game with cash.

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I don't think so.

This is Jorge Yao, a Clash of Clans player who gained Rank 1 status and millions of fans by being a full-blown wallet warrior and blowing hundreds of dollars a week on gems to reset production cooldowns - and this was before rich clanmates personally sponsored him in exchange for having him boost their accounts.

If mobile game fans will celebrate one of the most gluttonous examples of pay-to-win in fucking existence, then of course people will pay a fraction of this in WoW tokens for a Mythic Azshara boost.

Huge difference in game type there. That game and many mobile games are 100% p2w. You can't buy your way into the top end game any way like that in WoW. You can't drop 50k and all of a sudden you have a spot on Methods starting line up and secure a world first kill. You can do the Clash of Clans equivalent with money. It isn't even close to apples to apples. Sure some people will drop a few tokens for a mythic carry, a few others will do it for the carry and gear, but they are far and few between. Only a tiny sub section of players even kill the final mythic bosses while they are current. From that tiny pool of players, even less buy their way in.

[ArkantosChampion]

I Think close to the mid/end of Shadowlands

[themaster24]

this is a choice you've made, that not everyone will make, you are happy with your amount of gold great, maybe i'm not.
what this implies is there is a limited amount of time...

this is still true in the case of some items that you won't get without sinking significant amounts of time into grinding, or paying to be boosted. and getting items you wouldn't get if you couldn't pay for a boost.

My issue with these, is that there isn't some inherent gate put up by blizzard. Everyone is as capable, generally speaking, of making gold or doing mythic raids. There are people out there that can make the money for Longboi in a matter of weeks with no cash transactions, just playing the game. Mythic Azshara took the best guilds what, 2-3 weeks to kill and start getting mounts? These aren't things that are designed with the asinine timegates that my example was describing. You taking longer to make gold or being incapable of killing a boss isn't the games doing, it's your doing.

i think its ridiculous how far ppl go to white knight. just to justify it so they don't have to admit to some sort of negative aspect. because its infallible and nothing can hurt my precious. how dare you talk down to my wow.

I mean, how is that any different than you refusing to see how other find it odd to call WoW P2W? Many, myself included, have admitted that we understand why other feel the Token is P2W. You even try to call me a white knight for trying to explain my, as well as others, viewpoint as to why we don't like using P2W to describe something like the WoW token. I'm not trying to defend WoW because it's my One Ring, I'm trying to explain why I don't believe the term is appropriate, for more games than just WoW.

Hell, one of my favorite MMO's, Rift, showcases the epitome of P2W in an MMO





I was so disappointed when they began to walk down this road. It started with small things, a couple of pieces of gear here or there. Eventually they started selling whole sets of raid gear from previous tiers, and it's just gone downhill since. This is another example of why it feels, for me, weird to up and say WoW is P2W. I understand how a token can be used, I'm not oblivious to the fact that you can buy a couple BoE's of whatever Ilvl is in the AH, even a 455-forged piece. I know you can spend gold to get runs, and get whatever is given to you. I just feel like it's not quite fair to use the same label to describe WoW tokens (or any other game with similar level of stuff), to the things you can do in Rift, Clash of Clans, Lords Mobile, etc.

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They are uncapped now. Before you could only buy 10 a week in game and as much as you wanted out of game with cash.

See, I thought the cap was changed to 20 in a week? That's what their website says, so I'm not entirely sure.

[Heathy]

but it is the same thing, you just choose to ignore it more in wow because the gear is less important and easily replaced or moved passed, but, you're still able to inject real life money into the game, and buy in game items with gold that you didn't grind yourself.

time is what your are saving in all of these pay to win scenarios.

black desert, log in enough times through enough events, don't need to pay for cash shop items.

eve online, play long enough train skills, get lucky, learn the game mechanics, make money get rich, never need to buy subscription time, or sell plex buy skills and ships without needing to grind for it.

rift, same as wow, so the last tier is buyable on the cash shop, but its not the top tier, but you can still get that tier without buying it, just spending the time to get it yourself.

time is the key here when it comes to mmos you aren't buying direct wins, you are buying time savers, converting money from the real world into you not needing to grind as much. or simply wait for the right time. you want it now, you can buy it now.


I personally wouldn't pay to win in wow, i wouldn't see the need to sell wow tokens for gold, i wouldn't feel the need to pay for boosts. so to me, I also don't find it a problem, because it doesn't affect me. I could say the same thing about black desert, i don't pvp. at all, so, therefore the paying to win, doesn't affect me, as anyone who has dumped their wallet into the game to be top tier in pvp, isn't going to be fighting me, because I don't pvp, therefore, the p2w doesn't directly affect my game. therefore it does not bother me at all in the slightest.

[iinverse]

time is the key here when it comes to mmos you aren't buying direct wins, you are buying time savers, converting money from the real world into you not needing to grind as much.

Thats called "catch up", not "p2w"

[Heathy]

what? please be coherent or ill just ignore you.

never mind i did it anyway.

[Big Thanks]

what? please be coherent or ill just ignore you.

never mind i did it anyway.

Its Christmas dude...there is no need to be mad.

WoW is not pay to win.
You CAN pay to "win"....but you can (being literal) "pay" "to" "win" in any game with a trade system and account share.

A game to be pay to win needs to:
1)Affect the whole community by the system
If you be so kind to tell me "how" are YOU effected by random Joe getting someone to play the game for him and get all the rewards in the game...
YOU are not effected by this system...because WoW is not pay to win.

2) The person paying needs to have an advantage over people not paying money. (in the very least be VERY inconvenient to a free user)

Small conclusion: Pay to Win only exists when the entire community is affected by it, and is mostly in PvP centered games.

[Heathy]

its either one or the other not both.

anyway this was fun you guys can circle jerk till the cows come home whatever makes you feel better about yourself and the denial and word games, but it maybe is but it isn't but it is. make up ya fucking minds.

it either has p2w elements or it doesn't.

again though, if someone was fully intent on paying to win it wouldn't be with wow tokens it would just be flat out buying an account from some 3rd party seller with a slew of maxxed out chars. this is blackmarket stuff that happens for every game, so to say a game has no pay to win, even in the 3rd party sense is disingenuous.

every mmo has this, some form of RMT but if you wanna live in your bubble worlds where it doesn't happen go right ahead.

[Big Thanks]

its either one or the other not both.

anyway this was fun you guys can circle jerk till the cows come home whatever makes you feel better about yourself and the denial and word games, but it maybe is but it isn't but it is. make up ya fucking minds.

In your eyes, then, League of Legends is pay to win.
Because i CAN pay a random person to play for me.

Do you understand a true pay to win game is EXTREMELY inconvenient to "free" users? To the point of being "aggressive" (as i like to call it)?

Please tell me an agressive pay to win game as an example...because im suspicious...you never played...Black Desert for example.
Extremely "aggressive" and a true pay to win game...i think is the only P2W game i've ever played

[Heathy]

I haven't played eve for nearly 2 years now i think.

heres my chars on zkill

https://zkillboard.com/character/577823138/
https://zkillboard.com/character/559735020/


heres me in bdo right now

https://imgur.com/a/g9plieW


what matters is how much it really affects your gameplay, if the answer to that is not at all or marginally, then really who cares.

what i have learned by playing these p2w games is that, its all based on time, you either want it now, or you are willing to wait for it to come, with time. throwing money at a game that lets you do that, pretty much just reduces the time it takes for you to get what you want sooner.