People don't have limits to ability

[tehealadin]

We had a conversation at work today and it really got me thinking. I am still thinking, and trying to really formulate my thoughts on the topic, so wanted to put it here, I am genuinely interested in thoughts and perspectives on this.

I work in a school and a colleague was having a discussion with a manager regarding the recent test score of a pupil. My colleague suggested to the manager that maybe the reason for the bad test score was that the pupil was reaching the limit of their ability in the subject. The manager responded with "people don't have limits, they just need to try harder".

My initial reaction to this is that it is bullshit. The manager had recently been reading on growth mindset, and whilst I agree that too many people don't push themselves to their limits, and many of us are often far more capable, and able to grow in a discipline with time and effort, that our initial competencies are not fixed and can be expanded, and that the mindset of "I can't do that" or "I will never be able to do that" often leads people into a dead end and is often false (in some cases), however the blanket statement that this growth is endless just initially seemed off to me.

I'd first like to throw the question out there- what do people think about the statement that "people don't have limits, you just need to try harder"? I am not talking about simply getting better at something with effort, I think we can all agree that this aspect is demonstrably true, at some point you couldn't write, then you learned the basics, built on it and improved, we can see in our own lives that this is just true. I am not asking, or interested in debating whether to not people can get better at something to some extent, the question focuses on an end point to this- is there one?

The manager's argument seemed to imply that unlimited success is a function of time and effort. Whilst we can clearly measure time, can we accurately measure effort for a given task? We can certainly gauge effort, it is usually obvious when someone is half arsing something, or really going for it, but can it be measured to an extent that we can accurately and correctly claim that you have x units still to give, or you are giving x units at the moment, increase it by y? Do you need to be able to? Can you falsify the claim that "I cannot try any harder/You can try harder!"? I am not seeing how such a claim could be falsified, I welcome anyone with a different perspective if they can show how it can. Surely if such a claim cannot be falsified, and given its integral nature to the claim "people don't have limits, you just need to try harder", the claim itself is on shaky scientific grounds?

I suppose that is where time can come in. Is it simply a case that max effort+enough time=win? How do we know what enough time is? And if enough time exceeds the very real limitations on time that we all have, does such a claim have any real practical, realistic authority? Can you measure the ratio of time/effort for a given task to show how long it should take for someone to reach x proficiency at a task? And given that we have finite time, doesn't this limit effectively place a limit on how much you can grow an ability?

It is one that really has me thinking, and I am still trying to formulate my thoughts on it. I genuinely would be interested on people's thoughts on this. And just to clarify, it isn't about simple growth of ability, it is about unending growth to ability, the absence of any limits, which was the claim the manager made.

[TigTone]

Everyone has physical limitations.

DNA limitations if you want to get straight to the point.

If your biology allows for something it can happen if it doesn’t then it won’t happen.

I’m not including the use of tools.

[Kokolums]

I have seen people with really poor memories whom also have incredibly good memories when it comes to things they care about. It leads me to believe that most people have a good memory but most just don't care to apply themselves. Having a good memory can put you worlds ahead of others. I have personally been able to unlock talent and ability in people by connecting the task to something they have good feelings about or care about a lot.

Most people limit themselves by not giving a crap.

[Ivanstone]

The manager responded with "people don't have limits, they just need to try harder".

If that was true then why is he just a manager? Is he not trying hard enough or are there other reasons?

I am currently not trying hard enough at work because I am responding to some stupid meritocracy bullshit on MMOC but there's still a physical and mental limit to what I can actually do at work.

[PC2]

Any person who is functional whatsoever has no limit to what they could learn on any subject. The reason for this is because the only good explanation for the human brain is that it is built up to the level that it reaches the universality of computation(aka Turing completeness). From that point on the idea that a person can't learn something fundamentally doesn't make sense anymore.

Of course we have people in this thread like @Connal who deny that this is an explanation for how the brain works, however I respectfully disagree.

[tehealadin]

Any person who is functional whatsoever has no limit to what they could learn on any subject. The reason for this is because the only good explanation for the human brain is that it is built up to the level that it reaches the universality of computation(aka Turing completeness). From that point on the idea that a person can't learn something fundamentally doesn't make sense anymore.

I haven't heard of/read up on universality of computation, I will look into that. Based on your comment at this point, would I be correct in stating that you believe anyone with an IQ of 60 could master calculus?

- - - Updated - - -

I am responding to some stupid meritocracy bullshit on MMOC

What do you mean?

[PC2]

I haven't heard of/read up on universality of computation, I will look into that. Based on your comment at this point, would I be correct in stating that you believe anyone with an IQ of 60 could master calculus?

Anything that can possibly be learned can be learned by the Turing complete system. Provided it has some minimum hardware memory capacity, currently there is no reason to believe that humans are anywhere close to a memory cap that will put an upper ceiling on how much knowledge we can have. (Also note that knowledge is distinct and separate from unprocessed raw data.)

So yes as long as the 60 IQ person has this basic functionality i'm referring to then it's not possible that information states in the brain can't be incrementally altered up to the point that they can master calculus.

[Shadowferal]

So yes as long as the 60 IQ person has this basic functionality i'm referring to then it's not possible that information states in the brain can't be incrementally altered up to the point that they can master calculus.

Well I guess people are doing it all wrong then...maybe you can show us all how it's done.

[PC2]

Well I guess people are doing it all wrong then...maybe you can show us all how it's done.

Show you how calculus is done? I'm not a calculus teacher. There are a lot of free online programs though if someone doesn't want to pay to take the course.

[PC2]

I think you need to check on things like "Math Learning Disabilities" that prevent people from learning basic math, let alone higher level.

Actually I'm a critic of people who say that mathematical learning and knowledge is distinct from any other form of knowledge in terms of how it relates to the brain. That is the result of a kind of stereotyping that math is only for certain kinds of people. It's fundamentally wrong because the brain is entirely general-purpose.

Also, if you ever hear someone say the word "neuro-diverse" then you can instantly know that they have a misunderstanding about how the brain works.

[PC2]

That's fine... but at that point you are playing with wishful thinking...

As I personally know what I am talking about on this issue... and know many others in the same "camp".

Then you have a misunderstanding of how the brain works.

[PC2]

Or I understand it, as I have experienced it first hand, but you are stuck in an ideological ideal/position because you know exactly what the alternative means, and you will not accept it... currently... or maybe ever.

You experienced what first hand? Just because you found it hard to learn math doesn't mean you have a special kind of brain. If you are a functional person whatsoever then your brain is general purpose and has the same repertoire of possibilities as any other person. Period.

You don't even think the brain is computable so I'm not sure why we are debating this... We're not even on the same planet as far as this topic goes.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

"people don't have limits, they just need to try harder".

The first part of that is false, the second can be true. People have all kinds of limitations on different things, physical, mental, emotional skills, etc... they can get "better", but depending on their makeup, biology, development, etc, will not be able to reach a pinnacle of someone that has all of that in their favor.

So mostly I think it's niceties people used to tell eachother that for some reason a lot of people now believe is true.

There are people with 90 or less iq in every field. Low intelligence makes thing harder not impossible outside of a disability.

[Trassk]

Maybe I need to tell my defunct pancreas to try harder to produce insulin, that's all it needs!

[Draco-Onis]

You experienced what first hand? Just because you found it hard to learn math doesn't mean you have a special kind of brain. If you are a functional person whatsoever then your brain is general purpose and has the same repertoire of possibilities as any other person. Period.

You don't even think the brain is computable so I'm not sure why we are debating this... We're not even on the same planet as far as this topic goes.

Your brain is not a computer and human psychology is not binary that's not even going into other factors such as time, external pressure and so on. Your reasoning only works if we aren't human.

[Spectral]

I think people generally benefit from believing that they are not limited by innate ability because it promotes an inclination to keep hammering away, keep improving, and to try harder.

Really though, it's trivially obvious that people have limits to their abilities, both physically and mentally. I'm a decent amateur runner, have worked pretty hard at the sport, and I'm good enough that I occasionally win local races. That's neat! I want to continue to work hard and keep getting better until I'm just too old and starting losing physical capacity. However, because I am not an insane person, I'm under no delusion that if I just work hard enough, I might catch Eliud Kipchoge from behind in a marathon. He's more physically blessed than I am in addition to being a tremendously hard worker as well. Nor am I likely to even run a 15 minute 5K - I probably never was gifted enough and I definitely started too late in life for it to be a possibility. These sorts of things are trivially obvious and only fools would debate them.

Mental capability lacks the same sort of clear, objective tests that we have with things like "how fast can you run 800 meters?", but we do have enough tests that clearly measure the general traits that people sum up as intelligence that people really shouldn't have any delusions that everyone's got exactly the same ability. Even aside from tests, anyone that's been around academia and likes learning things has bumped into things that just seem inscrutable to them - they're very hard, and even if you can make some progress, it's going to be a challenge and you'll have to scrape for ever scrap of it.

For me, I started bumping into that wall towards the end of undergraduate physical chemistry as we got into quantum mechanics. Yeah, I could learn it, I could pass the class, but it was just really hard and would obviously have gotten harder for me the further I dug in. From talking to others, they feel the same way about things that come pretty easy to me, like basic coding or understanding molecular genetics. These things don't seem hard to me! Yet they're objectively difficult, lots of people just don't really have the juice to grasp them fully. In stark contrast, my mathematics Ph.D. friend breezes through the physics that tripped me up without much in the way of trouble. Why? Well, the obvious explanation is that he just has more horsepower. Life ain't fair, we're not rolling D&D dice where you have to be worse at one thing to be better at another.

All of which is a longwinded way to say that I think telling people the reason that they're failing is because they don't work hard enough can be quite cruel. People with below middling general intelligence aren't likely to make good materials chemists no matter how hard they try. It's on a good teacher to evaluate whether a student has put forth an honest effort or not.

[Shadowferal]

Then you have a misunderstanding of how the brain works.

The defense rests.

[Ghostpanther]

"people don't have limits, they just need to try harder".

The first part of that is false, the second can be true. People have all kinds of limitations on different things, physical, mental, emotional skills, etc... they can get "better", but depending on their makeup, biology, development, etc, will not be able to reach a pinnacle of someone that has all of that in their favor.

So mostly I think it's niceties people used to tell eachother that for some reason a lot of people now believe is true.

Well said and about as well as it can be said. The supervisor was just trying to use a well known tactic of inspiring one to do better. Football coaches for example, use it a lot. But at the same time, the coach is going to be faced with a limit if he tries to tell a 150 pound player he has no limits if he wants him to play right tackle when it is at pro level.

[Shadowferal]

mental retardation doesn't exist? Really?

[the game]

What if a person has no arms or legs? They wouldn't be able to play the piano very well.