I want a strong, new likeable male lead

[Captain Proton]

Of the times you mentioned you actually see Jaina only 3 or 4 times - and even then only very very briefly. Her time spent on-screen, for horde players, would be minuscule compared to pretty much every other important BfA character. She is also entirely absent from from all of the horde levelling areas. In fact, as horde players, probably had more quests involving Ashvane than Jaina by the end of 8.2.

My point stands, she is hardly "all over the expansion" from the perspective of a horde player, is mentioned and encountered? Yes. These are two different things.

As horde I saw Jaina in: (1)Lordaeron event, (2)her Warbringer video, (3)when she raided our fucking city and there was a war campaign quest to kill her, theres a war campaign quest to brainwash her brother and (4) a cinematic with their reunion, (5)she's there to help save Baine, and (6)shes even there in the final war campaign cinematic.

Still under-representing her there. She's had more on screen time and impact than another other character not named Sylvanas. She does appear in more cinematics though. Your point is made from flimsy accounts in your head that when they are listed when she is seen you can't even count. Your point is lost.

[Temp1on2]

Still under-representing her there. She's had more on screen time and impact than another other character not named Sylvanas. She does appear in more cinematics though.

According to you:
Lorderon event
Warbringer (not ingame)
Raid
Brainwash her brother (mentioned)
Reunion
Save baine
Final war campaign cinematic

I count 5 (brief) in game appearances, and once being mentioned. I say to you again, how does this count as "all over the expansion" for a horde player?

Nathanos was "all over the expansion", Sylvannas was "all over the expansion", Saurfang was "all over the expansion", Talanji was "all over the expansion", Baine was "all over the expansion", heck you could even argue that Rokhan was "all over the expansion". But Jaina certainly wasn't for horde players.

[Captain Proton]

According to you:
Lorderon event
Warbringer (not ingame)
Raid
Brainwash her brother (mentioned)
Reunion
Save baine
Final war campaign cinematic

I count 4 in game appearances, and once being mentioned. I say to you again, how does this count as "all over the expansion" for a horde player?

Nathanos was "all over the expansion", Sylvannas was "all over the expansion", Saurfang was "all over the expansion", Talanji was "all over the expansion", Baine was "all over the expansion", heck you could even argue that Rokhan was "all over the expansion". But Jaina certainly wasn't for horde players.

You're really the only one talking about in game appearances exclusively. All over the expansion includes Warbringer videos, it includes cinematics, it includes in game appearances, it includes story and quests about them, the impact of their actions. You selectively and nonsensically choosing in-game appearances as criteria for being all over the expansions doesn't make it so.

[Temp1on2]

You're really the only one talking about in game appearances exclusively. All over the expansion includes Warbringer videos, it includes cinematics, it includes in game appearances, it includes story and quests about them, the impact of their actions. You selectively and nonsensically choosing in-game appearances as criteria for being all over the expansions doesn't make it so.

It's not selective and and its not nonsensical. As a horde only player Jaina was not "all over the expansion" for me, the majority of players don't play through the entire story quests of each zone for both factions so I'd imagine this is an experienced shared by a great deal of players.

It would seem to most sensible people a criteria for being "all over the expansion" would be frequent and significant encounters with a character - this does not happen for horde players.

[Captain Proton]

It's not selective and and its not nonsensical. As a horde only player Jaina was not "all over the expansion" for me, the majority of players don't play through the entire story quests of each zone for both factions so I'd imagine this is an experienced shared by a great deal of players.

It would seem to most sensible people a criteria for being "all over the expansion" would be frequent and significant encounters with a character - this does not happen for horde players.

It is selective. Just because you may not pay attention to story doesn't mean others don't. Her impact is significant, the story about her and her family is significant.

I am also a horde only player and she was for me.

[Temp1on2]

I am also a horde only player and she was for me.

Well if Jaina was "all over the expansion" how would you describe Nathaons, Sylvanas, Saurfang, Talanji, and Bain's position in the expansion? They were clearly featured far more extensively than Jaina.

[Captain Proton]

Well if Jaina was "all over the expansion" how would you describe Nathaons, Sylvanas, Saurfang, Talanji, and Bain's position in the expansion? They were clearly featured far more extensively than Jaina.

I've already said Sylvanas had more time/impact than Jaina. Nathanos was just a gopher for Sylvanas, never actually doing anything. Baine sits around and mopes for most of the expansion, his INACTION being insufferable. Talanji had pretty major story and certainly is all over the expansion for Horde, but as far as I know there's no Alliance quest dealing with her. Out of all those characters, only Sylvanas and Jaina had considerable cross-faction interaction to be considered all over the expansion.

[Temp1on2]

I've already said Sylvanas had more time/impact than Jaina. Nathanos was just a gopher for Sylvanas, never actually doing anything. Baine sits around and mopes for most of the expansion, his INACTION being insufferable. Talanji had pretty major story and certainly is all over the expansion for Horde, but as far as I know there's no Alliance quest dealing with her. Out of all those characters, only Sylvanas and Jaina had considerable cross-faction interaction to be considered all over the expansion.

You didn't answer my question.

"All over the expansion" is a statement of (high) frequency of appearance and significant encounters, if the relatively low frequency of appearances and significant encounters of Jaina (for horde) can be described as "all over the expansion" then how would you describe the characters that I named?

[Captain Proton]

You didn't answer my question.

"All over the expansion" is a statement of (high) frequency of appearance and significant encounters, if the relatively low frequency of appearances and significant encounters of Jaina (for horde) can be described as "all over the expansion" then how would you describe the characters that I named?

Again, only you are selectively choosing appearances/encounters. I'm including other factors.

[Temp1on2]

Again, only you are selectively choosing appearances/encounters. I'm including other factors.

My point:

For a horde player, Jaina appears infrequently and when she does you rarely interact with her.

Your point:

Even for a horde player Jaina appears a lot.

To put it another way, on a scale of 0 - 5 (0 being no appearances and 5 being complete saturation) I'd say Jaina is a 2 for horde players, whereas Nathanos is around a 5.

So, my question to you is: If you consider the amount of Jaina appearances for horde players to be a lot how would you characterise the appearances of other characters (such as the ones I listed)?

[Captain Proton]

My point:

For a horde player, Jaina appears infrequently and when she does you rarely interact with her.

Your point:

Even for a horde player Jaina appears a lot.

To put it another way, on a scale of 0 - 5 (0 being no appearances and 5 being complete saturation) I'd say Jaina is a 2 for horde players, whereas Nathanos is around a 5.

So, my question to you is: If you consider the amount of Jaina appearances for horde players to be a lot how would you characterise the appearances of other characters (such as the ones I listed)?

My point: Jaina appearing in the expansion is more than just times you see her directly.
Your point: No only times you see her counts.

You can't even get my point right. If you're only counting times as being "all over the expansion", Sylvanas is barely a footnote in BFA.

[Temp1on2]

My point: Jaina appearing in the expansion is more than just times you see her directly.
Your point: No only times you see her counts.

You can't even get my point right. If you're only counting times as being "all over the expansion", Sylvanas is barely a footnote in BFA.

I didn't say only the times you see her count.

And no, my point was clearly For a horde player, Jaina appears infrequently and when she does you rarely interact with her. As evidence by my initial post "Only really if you were alliance".

You can't even compare Sylvanas to Jaina horde side. You directly interact with her constantly, you constantly do mission for her, you see actual CGI cinematics with her in them, even her warbrigner is played through the completion of in-game content - twice. This is what qualifies as "being all over the expansion" as a horde player for me, not the handful of times you see a character for 20 seconds.

[Palapop]

Hmmmm... Why does it matter if it's male or female? o.O

Sylvanas pwned them all anyway And she has hole between her legs.

Don't forget what Jaina did during assault of the Undercity and Dazar'alor!

2 of them f*cked up ARMIES....

[Reivur]

I've found that in general they're completely capable of making compelling characters-- even "new" ones that have no basis in the RTS and make them likeable and have lore moments. The problem is they're entirely capable of wasting them pretty quickly too. And some of that is from goofy lore requirements for the faction war, but some is just their preference of making new npcs for everything.

Case in point while "MY LOVE!!!" was silly and the voice acting was a little random the Tyrande storyline for both sides was alright, a little more interesting for horde if you did right clicks because she would completely acknowledge that you're horde each step of the way, only to be thrown away because they need her and Thalyssra to get irrational real quick to jam that race awkwardly into war against people who may have liberated them.

But previous examples: Mist of Pandaria had those two very endearing groups that traveled with you Horde & Alliance side. You'd even have them do little scuffles in the inn's talking shit. Some of the Legion Hall side-characters had really good moments and interactions. Thalyssa, as mentioned, was pretty chill until she had to be shoehorned in a faction almost last-minute. And in the Pandaria case what'd we get? Well, we got a potentially sad story arc with Nazgrim who put duty before feelings. That was pretty cool. And then they raised him for the four horsemen, so maybe one day something cool will happen out of it. But Taylor? Killed offscreen for a small quest hub. All plot, wasted. Amber Kearnen, one of the few developed SI Agents was killed just to do an intro for the Rogue quests in Legion. Hell, if you don't have a rogue, you won't even know she died in the first place. I certainly didn't. Admittedly it was to build up the stakes of how deadly dealing with Dreadlords should be so its kind of a wash as to whether or not its bad they killed her off it isn't as if they had to pick that character specifically.

Attachment really seems to be based on scale. If they make it smaller and more interpersonal, they seem to do a better job. If they make it broad they seem to fuck it up more. And its not like it even needs to involve you; Garrosh and Sylvanas's banter with one another was pretty sweet back in the day with neither of it being really personal towards you and good character interaction. Anduin and Baine meanwhile is confusing.

I know a lot of people talk shit about Anduin and human potential, and I know I'm among them, but when I use that meme for me its less about Anduin being a particularly bad character so much as being a boring character. He's a nice dude trying to do the best with what he has. If I had any complaint, its that he's dull and things have, for the most part, been really easy for him. So just to make that clear; a monarch who many view as 'the child king', and not as a fond title, somehow has less adversity (especially to his peers who can live a millenia so this gap of inexperience is even more troubling) than the time Stormwind tried to write off their bills on the Stonemasons. Kind of a big wut. The harshest he's received is Gen telling him "lol no" one time and Tyrande doing the same, with Tyrande's rage being justified because literally the only reason they joined the Alliance was the protection of Ashenvale which has been getting wrecked ever since-- its surprising she didn't do this earlier with Varian, to be frank.

Baine though? Repeatedly puts others ahead of his own people. Corresponds with the enemy multiple times in actions that can lead to his own people's demise. Its so weird to witness too when you factor in that he's the child of one of the boldest and few non-orc characters to be killed by doing Mak'gora to stand for what he believes in. The Tauranjo lore too was just so genuinely awful. How he's not been slung off Thunderbluff already is a mystery regardless of him later going behind a Tyrant's back or not. Even if you tear these factors away from Anduin or Baine they'll never be able to compete with Flynn's charm who is literally going around and showing you the ropes, or Taelia's back and forths with him with a surname that hints that there's potentially more to come. They simply get no chances to match these characters because they're in the background pushing the overall narrative.

tldr: They create side-characters like the Pandaria crews, Flynn, hell even Yrel (even if her plot was inconsistent due to story cuts) and inevitably throw them to the wolves or forget they even exist just to create new characters again and again who also get discarded. The game would probably have more notable characters and moments if they'd tone that shit down and build up side-characters they've already established. I get how that's difficult for new races and area's, and that's fine those should be new characters, but I'm talking even when they seemingly introduce Horde or Alliance 'officers' for quests who also went to that zone during the assaults/crisis of the year. I imagine this is done the way it is so quests can be designed with less contradictions on expansion launches unless its main arc material, but its a shame in the long run.

[RyanEX]

It's funny really, wow devs are going down the same path as marvel comics themselves have done with its forced feminist and she agenda, the thing that tanked their comic sales, yet just seeing how endgame worked out with strong male leads both good and bad, the audience telling these creators 'this is what we want', rather then learning from marvels mistakes, blizzard seems determined to repeat the mistakes of the comics industry

- - - Updated - - -



Society showed both they want strong male leads, but also would be just as happy with strong female leads, for example wonder woman, when their not pandering to a social demographic of irrational misandrists.

- - - Updated - - -



Blizzard has a golden opportunity to build baine up now. Problem is the ones crying for a 'strong leader' only mean that as in an complete psychopath who wants to kill without reason or for the hell of it.

Not often that I find myself agreeing with Trassk but he's 100% on the ball here. Nothing wrong with strong female leads that aren't just copy pasts of male roles, which is why WW succeeded whereas as Captain Marvel, though a financial success, is considered terrible.

Blizzard has let opportunities to develop characters like Lor'themar and Baine, but instead keep focusing on new secondary characters that're only relevant for the xpac they're present in. I like Flynn as much as the next guy but once BFA is done i don't expect to see much of him, if at all, again. Might see more of Taelia though since she and Anduin share a connection to Bolvar who's supposedly going to be relevant again.

[Trassk]

The first thing blizzard needs to do is improve the quality of writing before they attempt any development of characters in general. As it stands now they went with quantity over quality of late with so many races and by association leaders.

[Yoshingo]

This thread sure went places. I knew the second I read the OP it would be filled with people whining about politics or 'muh feminism.'

Anduin and Baine are fine. Its just the people who hate them are the same ones who insist the only male characters that are allowed are big dumbfuck brutes like Garrosh whose entire ideology is might makes right.

Umbric is great, Lor'themar is great. Vol'jin is/was finally getting interesting in BfA, Saurfang was great. Wrathion is awesome, Magni is...around?

As someone said early on, Saurfang was basically the main story focus of this entire expansion.

Blizzard introducing more female leaders isn't the same thing as them not having male leaders. This whole thread just comes off like people looking to complain about female characters in this story. The Lore forum becomes a bigger and bigger trashheap every day lol.

Might as well throw this thread into the off topic forums, it sure is shit enough for that garbage fire.

[Vampyrr]

Eh, Blizzard seems to be pussifying the male cast we have or plan to get, unless its a villain of course. If anything give us a villain we love so much that we don't want to see die, Emet Selch from FFXIV, Handsome Jack from B2, Thanos from Avengers, ect. ect.

I definitely wanted to kill Handsome Jack so dunno if hes the best choice ;p

[Biske]

There isn't a problem, but some gamers like pretend there is whenever women or minorities feature prominently in 'their' games. Mark my words, if Blizz makes a prominent black or asian NPC with the new customizations we're getting in Shadowlands, there's going to be so much crying.

Something something "Wahhhh SJWs ruining muh games" something.

It's extra funny because these same people will be the ones saying representation doesn't matter yet throw a hissy fit when they're not completely hogging the spotlight 24/7.

[scelero]

Seriously. Stop using this divisive idea as a talking point. Stop focusing on it. Stop breathing life into it. Etc.

If you need a strong, male lead... look within yourself and be that person and rise about all this.

Stop hanging out with turkeys and fly like an eagle.