Have we really come to living like this, and how did we get there if that's so?

[shadowmouse]

OK, let me lead with a disclaimer. There is a gun control thread, hopefully the discussion here can steer around gun control!

Over in GenOT, I recently posted in the thread about nationality and remarked that I find it harder and harder to feel connected to America as it seems to stand today. Right after that I checked the news. Ouch!

CNN is one of the few news sites I can reach because of the Great Firewall (TGF), and I am increasingly bothered by the prospect that my news is filtered both by what CNN thinks I want to read and by TGF. News is news because it is something out of the ordinary, but for me the implications of this story https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/30/u...son/index.html damned near made me do a spit take. WTF! I ran a search on the church, and nothing sprang out as making it particularly controversial. Why the heck do churches now feel a need to keep armed security teams? OK, the obvious answer is because it seems people now shoot up churches, but have we really reached the point that we're living in armed camps like this is a post apocalypse B movie?

Socially, how the heck did we get there and when did it happen? (Please post the gun control discussion in that thread, this is intended as a social question posed by a guy who has been out of the country for 20 years.)

[cubby]

OK, let me lead with a disclaimer. There is a gun control thread, hopefully the discussion here can steer around gun control!

Over in GenOT, I recently posted in the thread about nationality and remarked that I find it harder and harder to feel connected to America as it seems to stand today. Right after that I checked the news. Ouch!

CNN is one of the few news sites I can reach because of the Great Firewall (TGF), and I am increasingly bothered by the prospect that my news is filtered both by what CNN thinks I want to read and by TGF. News is news because it is something out of the ordinary, but for me the implications of this story https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/30/u...son/index.html damned near made me do a spit take. WTF! I ran a search on the church, and nothing sprang out as making it particularly controversial. Why the heck do churches now feel a need to keep armed security teams? OK, the obvious answer is because it seems people now shoot up churches, but have we really reached the point that we're living in armed camps like this is a post apocalypse B movie?

Socially, how the heck did we get there and when did it happen? (Please post the gun control discussion in that thread, this is intended as a social question posed by a guy who has been out of the country for 20 years.)

America and americans are cultural orphans. We have nothing in our heritage as a country that links us all together as a culture - and that's by design, given we were built as a melting pot. There are significant schools of thought on this particular topic. It's profoundly interesting.

Regarding news, it's never NOT been the case that whomever we get our news from is filtered by what they think we want to read.

[noidentity]

Fear, people panicked with all of the school and house of warship shootings so like the most recent church shooting you linked the paritioners decided to slcreate a volunteer security force to help protect the church.

Also no it's not normal, it's Texas

[Shadowferal]

OK, the obvious answer is because it seems people now shoot up churches, but have we really reached the point that we're living in armed camps like this is a post apocalypse B movie?

No.
Take the news with a grain of salt.
US is a big place. 99% of its entirety rarely ever sees violence.

[Blur4stuff]

Most of the US is quite safe depending on what you're comparing it to. Although, I would consider much of China, even the cities, to be safer regarding violence. If you travel a bit further east into South Korea or Japan then you're a million times safer again compared to the US regarding violence.

[Ghostpanther]

OK, let me lead with a disclaimer. There is a gun control thread, hopefully the discussion here can steer around gun control!

Over in GenOT, I recently posted in the thread about nationality and remarked that I find it harder and harder to feel connected to America as it seems to stand today. Right after that I checked the news. Ouch!

CNN is one of the few news sites I can reach because of the Great Firewall (TGF), and I am increasingly bothered by the prospect that my news is filtered both by what CNN thinks I want to read and by TGF. News is news because it is something out of the ordinary, but for me the implications of this story https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/30/u...son/index.html damned near made me do a spit take. WTF! I ran a search on the church, and nothing sprang out as making it particularly controversial. Why the heck do churches now feel a need to keep armed security teams? OK, the obvious answer is because it seems people now shoot up churches, but have we really reached the point that we're living in armed camps like this is a post apocalypse B movie?

Socially, how the heck did we get there and when did it happen? (Please post the gun control discussion in that thread, this is intended as a social question posed by a guy who has been out of the country for 20 years.)

Crime rate and homicide rates in the US are lower now than they where several years ago. We have a long history of shootings, which exceed what we are seeing today.

What we are seeing however, is a increase of lack of respect for others and being honorable with our commitments and actions. Divorce rates where a lot lower several decades ago is one example.

Use to people had to work hard to have food to eat, a roof over their heads and to pay their bills. Now too many just live for themselves. Many are still living at home even tho they are adults. When I got the chance and was old enough, I wanted to leave home and make a life on my own. I did.

[TexasRules]

Fear, people panicked with all of the school and house of warship shootings so like the most recent church shooting you linked the paritioners decided to slcreate a volunteer security force to help protect the church.

Also no it's not normal, it's Texas

He wasn't a volunteer. You're right in that it is not normal because in most of your "normal"states there would have been 6-8 minutes of murder before police showed up.

The filtering is not just news, look at this liberal minded board. If there is any whiff of a white supremacist killer they are all over it. Do you see any posts about the anti-Semite attacks? No, and you won't because that does not fit their narrative of what they want to talk about. And the first response to this will be because I did not post it. And I shouldn't have too, racists hate crimes should be posted about, but not here, unless the perpetrator is a fan of Trump or a white supremacist.

[Bryntrollian]

Did you already forget about Christchurch? Or, maybe you simply didn't see with your own eyes just how bad it can really get.

[PACOX]

It may be a shock, but minority churches have the target of lone wolves and domestic terrorists since the early 1900s. People would like to cite the current political climate and lax gun control but the stuff has been happening for 100 years. Most of these places do not want to arm themselves or can't. Because history also tells you when those targeted churches arm themselves an FBI agent suddenly wants to join their congregation.

Bombs, arson, guns, knives, vandalism. Pick your crime.

On another note, I saw someone argue for less gun laws because they want everyone to own an AR15. Why do they want everyone to own an AR15. Because, paraphrasing, even a one-armed kid could use them. Might as well give everyone a car regardless of their ability to drive.

[ati87]

Guns at churches have nothing to do with any kind of mass-shooting but more with the obsession the right-wing Christians have with guns.
If you do the correct search you will find enough articles about how the Bible is pro guns because of story XYZ which is just highly selective reading.

[noidentity]

He wasn't a volunteer. You're right in that it is not normal because in most of your "normal"states there would have been 6-8 minutes of murder before police showed up.

The filtering is not just news, look at this liberal minded board. If there is any whiff of a white supremacist killer they are all over it. Do you see any posts about the anti-Semite attacks? No, and you won't because that does not fit their narrative of what they want to talk about. And the first response to this will be because I did not post it. And I shouldn't have too, racists hate crimes should be posted about, but not here, unless the perpetrator is a fan of Trump or a white supremacist.

It's right in the first line of the story, feel free to correct. He was the head of the volunteer security for the church.

Sorry to breakup your little victim complex but this was likely a mental health issue as the shooter was a homeless loner who had multiple run ins with the cops in the past.

[Mayhem]

Crime rate and homicide rates in the US are lower now than they where several years ago. We have a long history of shootings, which exceed what we are seeing today.

What we are seeing however, is a increase of lack of respect for others and being honorable with our commitments and actions. Divorce rates where a lot lower several decades ago is one example.

Use to people had to work hard to have food to eat, a roof over their heads and to pay their bills. Now too many just live for themselves. Many are still living at home even tho they are adults. When I got the chance and was old enough, I wanted to leave home and make a life on my own. I did.

It is kind of adorable to read your posts, conclusions and implications.

[shadowmouse]

Did you already forget about Christchurch?

No, but I'm not from New Zealand. On the other hand, I've lived in Texas.

Take the news with a grain of salt.
US is a big place. 99% of its entirety rarely ever sees violence.

I take it with enough salt to keep Wisconsin roads ice free all winter. That's why I'm checking here, I know that my news is filtered by the provider targeting my past reading history, then it passes through TGF where it is very obviously diverted through routers here (it shows up on things like my weather feed when I'm getting weather for another city), and who knows what else in between. Still, I remember when my grandfather was a minister and bringing your weapons into church would have been in poor taste. Now, it seems nobody even blinked at the idea of a church -- historically a place of peace and refuge -- having a designated, armed, security team.

Crime rate and homicide rates in the US are lower now than they where several years ago. We have a long history of shootings, which exceed what we are seeing today.

It may have crept up on you. Despite the facepalming amusement I'm having in the video games forum with people who apparently think I'm a 20 something Chinese girl and aren't getting the jokes (I gave you a mention), I recall us being approximately the same age. The difference is that I left before the WTC attack and the changes are particularly jarring to me.

It may be a shock, but minority churches have the target of lone wolves and domestic terrorists since the early 1900s.

I've already asked that gun control matters be left in that thread. I see nothing to indicate this was a minority church, but you may have a different definition in mind so I cannot really address that.

[Ghostpanther]

No, but I'm not from New Zealand. On the other hand, I've lived in Texas.



I take it with enough salt to keep Wisconsin roads ice free all winter. That's why I'm checking here, I know that my news is filtered by the provider targeting my past reading history, then it passes through TGF where it is very obviously diverted through routers here (it shows up on things like my weather feed when I'm getting weather for another city), and who knows what else in between. Still, I remember when my grandfather was a minister and bringing your weapons into church would have been in poor taste. Now, it seems nobody even blinked at the idea of a church -- historically a place of peace and refuge -- having a designated, armed, security team.



It may have crept up on you. Despite the facepalming amusement I'm having in the video games forum with people who apparently think I'm a 20 something Chinese girl and aren't getting the jokes (I gave you a mention), I recall us being approximately the same age. The difference is that I left before the WTC attack and the changes are particularly jarring to me.

They are becoming smarter. Ohio had a increase in conceal carry permits issued once the state amended it's law concerning such so they make more sense. We did not have a increase in the number of shootings.

Na. The media also dramatizes events. You need to look at the statistics to see there is not a increase of violence and shootings overall. Percentage wise, taking the population numbers into the equation.

[PACOX]

I've already asked that gun control matters be left in that thread. I see nothing to indicate this was a minority church, but you may have a different definition in mind so I cannot really address that.

You can't talk about a shooting without talking about the tool involved , nor did I say you were talking about a minority church. I said that you'll find that churches have been targets of crimes for the past 100 years SEE minority churches. See the number of incidents at US synagogues in the past week.

Its not 'how did we get to this point?' 'its why are we still here?'

[Kokolums]

America and americans are cultural orphans. We have nothing in our heritage as a country that links us all together as a culture - and that's by design, given we were built as a melting pot. There are significant schools of thought on this particular topic. It's profoundly interesting.

Regarding news, it's never NOT been the case that whomever we get our news from is filtered by what they think we want to read.

That's not what the melting pot is.

The melting pot idea is that there is an established culture in place in America and immigrants should surrender their cultural norms and blend in.

America was actually VERY linked together as a cohesive culture for a long time until recently. Monthly holidays and festivals like Christmas, New Years, Halloween, Easter, etc are celebrated much the same from coast to coast providing a deep heritage that links us all. A lot of that is starting to fall away though.

[cubby]

That's not what the melting pot is.

The melting pot idea is that there is an established culture in place in America and immigrants should surrender their cultural norms and blend in.

America was actually VERY linked together as a cohesive culture for a long time until recently. Monthly holidays and festivals like Christmas, New Years, Halloween, Easter, etc are celebrated much the same from coast to coast providing a deep heritage that links us all. A lot of that is starting to fall away though.

Yes, that is precisely what the melting pot is in the United States. The melting pot is a fusion of nationalities that create a relatively new culture.

American has never had a true cultural heritage, outside of Native tribes. It's why people born in the United States are often referred to as cultural orphans, because we have nothing that we can truly call our own.

[Machismo]

That's not what the melting pot is.

The melting pot idea is that there is an established culture in place in America and immigrants should surrender their cultural norms and blend in.

America was actually VERY linked together as a cohesive culture for a long time until recently. Monthly holidays and festivals like Christmas, New Years, Halloween, Easter, etc are celebrated much the same from coast to coast providing a deep heritage that links us all. A lot of that is starting to fall away though.

No, no it is most certainly not.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1071.wbeghm359

"The melting pot theory has been used to describe societies that are formed by an assortment of immigrant cultures that eventually produce new hybrid social and cultural forms. The melting pot theory holds that, like metals melted together at great heat, the melting together of several cultures will produce a new compound, one that has great strength and other combined advantages. While the melting pot theory can be applied to any country that has integrated new cultures into its own, such as Brazil, Bangladesh, or even France, the theory is most commonly used to describe the United States as a new world with a distinct new breed of people amalgamated from many various groups of immigrants. Because of this, the melting pot theory has become synonymous with the process of Americanization."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot

[Shadowferal]

[Powerogue]

but have we really reached the point that we're living in armed camps like this is a post apocalypse B movie?

Depends on the area, but yeah. Some schools I know have guards now after similar shootings within the county.

Lax gun laws don't mix well with poor treatment of mental health, among other factors. The news obviously can make it seem like it's happening nonstop, but that has to be weighed against how big the country is and how much the news focus on drama for views. Still, our gun violence is right up there with our incarceration rate as one of the few things that America is still "the greatest" at.