Have we really come to living like this, and how did we get there if that's so?

[shadowmouse]

Thanks for the answers, guys. Appreciated.

[Theodarzna]

OK, let me lead with a disclaimer. There is a gun control thread, hopefully the discussion here can steer around gun control!

Over in GenOT, I recently posted in the thread about nationality and remarked that I find it harder and harder to feel connected to America as it seems to stand today. Right after that I checked the news. Ouch!

CNN is one of the few news sites I can reach because of the Great Firewall (TGF), and I am increasingly bothered by the prospect that my news is filtered both by what CNN thinks I want to read and by TGF. News is news because it is something out of the ordinary, but for me the implications of this story https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/30/u...son/index.html damned near made me do a spit take. WTF! I ran a search on the church, and nothing sprang out as making it particularly controversial. Why the heck do churches now feel a need to keep armed security teams? OK, the obvious answer is because it seems people now shoot up churches, but have we really reached the point that we're living in armed camps like this is a post apocalypse B movie?

Socially, how the heck did we get there and when did it happen? (Please post the gun control discussion in that thread, this is intended as a social question posed by a guy who has been out of the country for 20 years.)

The United States isn't really a country in sense that everyone living within this geography views one another as "countrymen" in any sort of solidarity sense. This is at best a job fair shopping market. In a place where there is zero trust, and an inept corrupt and unaccountable police force and criminal justice system; you pretty much need to protect yourself by yourself. Gods know you can't count on neighbors, or the police for much.

[Mayhem]

The United States isn't really a country in sense that everyone living within this geography views one another as "countrymen" in any sort of solidarity sense. This is at best a job fair shopping market. In a place where there is zero trust, and an inept corrupt and unaccountable police force and criminal justice system; you pretty much need to protect yourself by yourself. Gods know you can't count on neighbors, or the police for much.

For reasons that I simply don't seem to comprehend your country seems to just don't care about either of these things enough to vote for politicians that want to change things or at least vote those out of office for lack of doing anything about these two problems. I think that these two are the root of a sum of other problems that people care more about than these two.

Just why?

On the one hand, you can't insult police officers or the justice system because that's dishonoring them but they also don't work for the people who pay their wages and that itself is somehow not dishonoring.

[Theodarzna]

For reasons that I simply don't seem to comprehend your country seems to just don't care about either of these things enough to vote for politicians that want to change things or at least vote those out of office for lack of doing anything about these two problems. I think that these two are the root of a sum of other problems that people care more about than these two.

Just why?

On the one hand, you can't insult police officers or the justice system because that's dishonoring them but they also don't work for the people who pay their wages and that itself is somehow not dishonoring.

It is a complicated issue; for one "Qualified Immunity" is essentially untouchable politically. Even Black Lives Matter doesn't actually touch that issue. So the issues with the police force are just not on the radar politically speaking. Nobody speaks about it but it is the salient reason nobody can count on the police for protection. Plus police response times are abysmal in many areas.

The other sort bigger and more difficult issue to untangle is essentially a matter of being a low trust society. This is not a country you can have things unguarded and unlocked in. This is a country where whole areas of cities have pretty much locked all goods behind bullet proof Plexiglas. Nobody trusts one another, nor has much of a good reason to do so. So not only can you not trust the police, but you can't trust the people around you for the most part.

You can't really legislate trust and solidarity.

[Mayhem]

It is a complicated issue; for one "Qualified Immunity" is essentially untouchable politically. Even Black Lives Matter doesn't actually touch that issue. So the issues with the police force are just not on the radar politically speaking. Nobody speaks about it but it is the salient reason nobody can count on the police for protection. Plus police response times are abysmal in many areas.

The other sort bigger and more difficult issue to untangle is essentially a matter of being a low trust society. This is not a country you can have things unguarded and unlocked in. This is a country where whole areas of cities have pretty much locked all goods behind bullet proof Plexiglas. Nobody trusts one another, nor has much of a good reason to do so. So not only can you not trust the police, but you can't trust the people around you for the most part.

Terrible

You can't really legislate trust and solidarity.

Sure you can. Go after the bad cops and introduce programs to get police forces to participate with the people from the counties/districts they operate in.

[Theodarzna]

Terrible

Sure you can. Go after the bad cops and introduce programs to get police forces to participate with the people from the counties/districts they operate in.

That doesn't actually address what I'm describing. Qualified Immunity would thus remain intact. At present there isn't a legal obligation under say a Public Duty Doctrine to actually be competent at ones job or execute services for any specific individual. Basically the police can with full legal protection by negligent or fail any given person in the line of duty.

Thus the issue of trust. From the standpoint of a person living in the country, that does mean one cannot trust that the police are your protectors because there is no consequence for negligence or cowardice.

Your solution doesn't make one trust the police; because legally the police have no actual consequence for doing a bad job. Furthermore it doesn't address a lack of trust of everyone else. It ideally simply promises to have "Good people" (whatever that might mean) with intense amounts of power who have no requirement to faithfully conduct their job, and certainly no consequences for failure.

[Omega10]

It is a complicated issue; for one "Qualified Immunity" is essentially untouchable politically. Even Black Lives Matter doesn't actually touch that issue. So the issues with the police force are just not on the radar politically speaking. Nobody speaks about it but it is the salient reason nobody can count on the police for protection. Plus police response times are abysmal in many areas.

The other sort bigger and more difficult issue to untangle is essentially a matter of being a low trust society. This is not a country you can have things unguarded and unlocked in. This is a country where whole areas of cities have pretty much locked all goods behind bullet proof Plexiglas. Nobody trusts one another, nor has much of a good reason to do so. So not only can you not trust the police, but you can't trust the people around you for the most part.

You can't really legislate trust and solidarity.

I never really thought about it like this, but my first impression is to basically agree with such a brutal description of our society.

Having given it a second thought, my second impression is that you are understating how bad it is Even something that should be straightforward like finding an honest plumber or honest mover is not trivial.

[PC2]

What's with all this drama. The people I know never think about any of this larger story-driven shenanigans. We just wake and work on improving our lives and our children's lives on a day to day basis. Why does there need to be this obsession with our national identity and narrative.

As far as guns they are a blessing that let's us put a quick and timely demise to violent dirtbags and thieves.

[Theodarzna]

What's with all this drama. The people I know never think about any of this larger story-driven shenanigans. We just wake and work on improving our lives and our children's lives on a day to day basis. Why does there need to be this obsession with our national identity and narrative.

As far as guns they are a blessing that let's us put a quick and timely demise to potential violent dirtbags and thieves.

I hate to say it but often your posts feel like the manifestation of just this thinking:

[PC2]

I hate to say it but often your posts feel like the manifestation of just this thinking:

Well I want to *improve* everything, but through reasoning with people and increasing our creativity. As opposed to top-down societal engineering.

[Shadowferal]

To improve means learning from earlier mistakes.
Which is something you've no wish to do.

[PC2]

To improve means learning from earlier mistakes.
Which is something you've no wish to do.

No I said figure out the principle that created a problem as opposed to assuming a correlation-causation between historical observations.

[Shadowferal]

Semantics and sophistry is all you have.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
~~Albert Einstein

[Theodarzna]

I never really thought about it like this, but my first impression is to basically agree with such a brutal description of our society.

Having given it a second thought, my second impression is that you are understating how bad it is Even something that should be straightforward like finding an honest plumber or honest mover is not trivial.

It isn't a coincidence that American English has so many synonyms for "Swindle" or "Swindler". To hustle and cheat someone is commonplace. We have a laundry list of words for defrauding, cheating, rigging and other terrible terms that involve money and dishonorable actions. The United States is to its core, a Low Trust society.

[PC2]

Semantics and sophistry is all you have.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
~~Albert Einstein

Okay well I make sure to do as many new and different things as I possibly can each day. It's fun.

[NM 156]

They are becoming smarter. Ohio had a increase in conceal carry permits issued once the state amended it's law concerning such so they make more sense. We did not have a increase in the number of shootings.

Na. The media also dramatizes events. You need to look at the statistics to see there is not a increase of violence and shootings overall. Percentage wise, taking the population numbers into the equation.

This is correct not just for lethal shootings. The homicide rate is half of what it was in the late 70s early 80s. Profit driven media just wants eyeballs and clicks, and scaring people about violence is a great way to do that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rate_by_decade

[Edge-]

They are becoming smarter. Ohio had a increase in conceal carry permits issued once the state amended it's law concerning such so they make more sense. We did not have a increase in the number of shootings.

Na. The media also dramatizes events. You need to look at the statistics to see there is not a increase of violence and shootings overall. Percentage wise, taking the population numbers into the equation.

https://www.billtrack50.com/BillDetail/1111640

This one? Because it doesn't look like it was even voted on in the House, just committee. Or is there another piece of similar legislation?

[Monster Hunter]

America and americans are cultural orphans. We have nothing in our heritage as a country that links us all together as a culture - and that's by design, given we were built as a melting pot. There are significant schools of thought on this particular topic. It's profoundly interesting.

Regarding news, it's never NOT been the case that whomever we get our news from is filtered by what they think we want to read.

It's also worth noting that the term country is really loosely applied to America, yes your one nation but not like France, or England or alot of other places, you guys are a union of states at the end of the day and each state has its own identities and sub cultures. You more like Britain as union of diverse cultures than Germany a union of the same cultures.

And that comes with its own unique benefits but also drawbacks.

[Mayhem]

That doesn't actually address what I'm describing. Qualified Immunity would thus remain intact. At present there isn't a legal obligation under say a Public Duty Doctrine to actually be competent at ones job or execute services for any specific individual. Basically the police can with full legal protection by negligent or fail any given person in the line of duty.

Thus the issue of trust. From the standpoint of a person living in the country, that does mean one cannot trust that the police are your protectors because there is no consequence for negligence or cowardice.

Your solution doesn't make one trust the police; because legally the police have no actual consequence for doing a bad job. Furthermore it doesn't address a lack of trust of everyone else. It ideally simply promises to have "Good people" (whatever that might mean) with intense amounts of power who have no requirement to faithfully conduct their job, and certainly no consequences for failure.

You don't trust people because they are legally required to do a good job, you trust people if you know they try to do a good job.

So either you really think the legality is the issue, then it obviously can be legislated because introducing laws that would require doing a good job would build up trust, or what I wrote.

Which is it?

- - - Updated - - -

It isn't a coincidence that American English has so many synonyms for "Swindle" or "Swindler". To hustle and cheat someone is commonplace. We have a laundry list of words for defrauding, cheating, rigging and other terrible terms that involve money and dishonorable actions. The United States is to its core, a Low Trust society.

Oh, great, the number of words... wow, yeah, going by that Viennese people have a weird fetish for death because there are just so many different words for dying.

[Theodarzna]

You don't trust people because they are legally required to do a good job, you trust people if you know they try to do a good job.

So either you really think the legality is the issue, then it obviously can be legislated because introducing laws that would require doing a good job would build up trust, or what I wrote.

Which is it?

Oh, great, the number of words... wow, yeah, going by that Viennese people have a weird fetish for death because there are just so many different words for dying.

I distrust people who can legally get away with doing an absolutely shit job and suffer no consequences for it. As Black Lives Matter protests have emphasized.

It COULD be legislated, and at the very least someone might be able to argue the police can at least be punished for doing a bad job. But then you have to restructure say the police to be a significantly bigger presence.

So while you could tinker legislatively to make the police trustworthy, or at least less shitty. You can't necessarily legislate trust in ones own neighbors. And while the word comment is just an observation; it is not the proof of the case. It is just the emphasize "This is a low trust society" a fact so self evident that books exist on this fact. How you make a Low Trust society and High Trust society is not exactly within the current realm of legislative ability or subject to government writ.